Grinder advice ($1000-$1800)

[ElGranEspresso]

You have stated you like dark roasted beans for espresso and espresso based milk drinks.
Dark roasted (my description, others will vary) beans are beans roasted to the cusp of second crack, no further, preferably with no visible oil. Any dark and I consider them burnt.

This means your typical flavour profile will be chocolate, caramel, toffee, some nuts (depending on variety), hint of fruit if the acidity has not been burnt out and of course, roast notes.
Beans for this will be commercial grade blenders. Seeking non existent results
Higher grade blends/SO will use greens that are pricey and will cost a lot more. These blends are rarely roasted dark,more likely light-med or medium; to showcase all the flavours that the roaster copies from the importer's cupping notes.

When it comes to dark roasted beans, I do not fathom what you hope to achieve or find in the cup by spending huge dollars on a grinder? Most grinders around $1k will do the job and give you a great result in the cup. Workflow and grind retention would be the most important factors to consider, and will have a greater impact on the cup.
There is a lot of nonsense posted about taste differences between grinders by people who cannot clearly articulate what they seek or taste. In most cases the taste differences are due to technique, not the grinder. Be wary of claims.

If you have a typical (popular) espresso blend that states dried fruit (rarely do they specify the fruit), chocolate and caramel, then what nuances are you seeking? The fruit flavours will be muted by the roast level. If the roaster is any good, then you should have a balanced sweet cup with enough body and acidity to not drown in milk. There is an abundance of grinders that will perform the task of grinding and delivering a pleasant drink. Your espresso should have good body (due to roast depth) so comparisons based on "body" are more relevant to lighter roasts and bean varieties/processing methods.

If you like light to medium roasts for espresso, then you are opening up a whole can of worms where the end result depends on the depth of your pockets and how much you are willing to spend on roasted beans.

I have a relative who recently dropped over $9k on ugrading their setup because they wanted the best taste etc, but won't spend more than $40/kg on roasted beans. No difference in the cup to their previous setup.

My recommendation is to look at work flow, grind retention and ease of cleaning. Dark roasted beans will clog a grinder and it will need regular cleaning. Large grinders are designed for cafes with high volumes. For home use they are not always suitable due to space restraints.

If its looks and bragging rights you seek, then buy the shiniest beast you can find. Nothing wrong with that, site sponsors need to make a living.

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I'm still very lost and no closer to identifying the right grinder. Currently wavering whether to go around the $1000 mark (Mahlkonig X54) or blow out ($2000+) and go down the single dose or premium hopper route (Lagom P64, Weber Key, Niche Zero or Mahlkonig E65S). I'll keep stewing on it for a while. If anyone has one of these models and is looking to offload, please let me know! I prefer to buy second hand where possible.

[level3ninja]

I compared side by side Eureka Specialita, Atom 65, Atom 75 & Niche and could clearly taste a huge improvement in a coffee shot quality and flavour when going from a small burrs to larger - 75 was a clear winner

Not doubting you, but curious how your compared them. Did you dial then all in to the same recipe or each one to taste? In my experience, different burrs will taste best at different recipes.

[Bosco_Lever]

You have stated you like dark roasted beans for espresso and espresso based milk drinks.
Dark roasted (my description, others will vary) beans are beans roasted to the cusp of second crack, no further, preferably with no visible oil. Any dark and I consider them burnt.

This means your typical flavour profile will be chocolate, caramel, toffee, some nuts (depending on variety), hint of fruit if the acidity has not been burnt out and of course, roast notes.
Beans for this will be commercial grade blenders. Seeking non existent results
Higher grade blends/SO will use greens that are pricey and will cost a lot more. These blends are rarely roasted dark,more likely light-med or medium; to showcase all the flavours that the roaster copies from the importer's cupping notes.

When it comes to dark roasted beans, I do not fathom what you hope to achieve or find in the cup by spending huge dollars on a grinder? Most grinders around $1k will do the job and give you a great result in the cup. Workflow and grind retention would be the most important factors to consider, and will have a greater impact on the cup.
There is a lot of nonsense posted about taste differences between grinders by people who cannot clearly articulate what they seek or taste. In most cases the taste differences are due to technique, not the grinder. Be wary of claims.

If you have a typical (popular) espresso blend that states dried fruit (rarely do they specify the fruit), chocolate and caramel, then what nuances are you seeking? The fruit flavours will be muted by the roast level. If the roaster is any good, then you should have a balanced sweet cup with enough body and acidity to not drown in milk. There is an abundance of grinders that will perform the task of grinding and delivering a pleasant drink. Your espresso should have good body (due to roast depth) so comparisons based on "body" are more relevant to lighter roasts and bean varieties/processing methods.

If you like light to medium roasts for espresso, then you are opening up a whole can of worms where the end result depends on the depth of your pockets and how much you are willing to spend on roasted beans.

I have a relative who recently dropped over $9k on ugrading their setup because they wanted the best taste etc, but won't spend more than $40/kg on roasted beans. No difference in the cup to their previous setup.

My recommendation is to look at work flow, grind retention and ease of cleaning. Dark roasted beans will clog a grinder and it will need regular cleaning. Large grinders are designed for cafes with high volumes. For home use they are not always suitable due to space restraints.

If its looks and bragging rights you seek, then buy the shiniest beast you can find. Nothing wrong with that, site sponsors need to make a living.

[San]

I compared side by side Eureka Specialita, Atom 65, Atom 75 & Niche and could clearly taste a huge improvement in a coffee shot quality and flavour when going from a small burrs to larger - 75 was a clear winner. When compare 75 to Niche it’s a completely different discussion: flat vs conical flavour profile. It’s quite different flavours and aromas and which one is better is hard to say, both are good but in a different way. So when comparing flat vs conical in the same price league, it comes down to a flavour preference.

[WhatEverBeansNecessary]

Also hard to judge and say between these two grinders they are both perfectly dialed in an no longer capable of producing better shots. Having said that there is probably significant difference between an entry level grinder of $200-$500 vs a high end grinder of $2000+ in terms of particle consistency.

But I would suspect to pick a difference between similarly priced grinders will be difficult even given different burr sizes. Preference will largely come down to other factors like burr geometry, aesthetics, functionality, retention etc.
Just look at Hoffman's review of the DF64 - he says it produces as good shots as grinders in much higher price brackets (paraphrasing here) but he still prefers the niche because of the workflow.

[wattgn]

I'm not convinced. Even in huge comparisons of flat and conical grinders of varying burr sizes, it is hard to pick a winner, consistently.

I think a lot goes into the design of the burrs themselves and that is overlooked. A different grinder may produce a slightly different flavour.

[San]

With smaller burrs you might have thoughts at the back of your mind that larger burrs produce a better grind (and they do!) and an upgradatis might strike. I’ve noticed a big improvement between 64mm and 75mm burrs, even in milk based coffees.

[tompoland]

I have had both the Mahlkonig X54 All Rounder (aptly named) and the Niche. I would go with the latter if medium to dark espresso is your thing and the former is you like lighter roasts or you want something that will perform very well for all roast depths as well as other brewed coffee.

[Wholikesmonkeys]

I can only comment on the atom 75 but I've had it for a couple of weeks now and I love it. It's quiet and chess out 20g in under 5s. I haven't done any alignment checks oe shimming and I'm super happy with the grind quality. I'm finding the adjustment a bit sensitive though, a tiny movement makes a bigger impact on the shot than I'd expect.
The standard hopper is ridiculously big though I like the look of the small dark/smoke hopper. I'm waiting on delivery of a very short hopper and bellows from etsy to see how bad single dosing is as it does suit my work flow. If it doesn't work then I'm still going to be very happy with it for grind on demand.

[ElGranEspresso]

herzog and San - yes I’m now looking at a wider budget frame.

I’m now looking at the following -

Mahlkonig E65S GBW
Eureka Atom 75
Eureka Mignon XL
Ceado E37S
ECM V-Titan 64

St Ali also have a secondhand Mahlkonig Peak for sale which could be worth looking at? Although probably best suited for commercial than home use right?

[herzog]

Super useful. As I do on most occasions, I’ll end up blowing my budget out...

If you are looking at blowing the budget, I have the Mahlkoenig E65S mentioned above, albeit the standard timed version (ie: NON GBW version. )

It's a superb grinder, and was my upgrade path from the T64.

Note you can also buy the E65S rebadged as the Anfim Pratica for a few hundred dollars less. Main difference is that the exterior chassis has more plastic and less metal, but it's the same machine under the hood. They even announced them in the same press release. https://www.hemrogroup.com/en/news-a...ext-generation

[San]

Have you consider Eureka Atom 75? - it’s within your budget.

[Dipendente]

I can highly recommend the Eureka Mignon XL. It won out over the Niche Zero in side by side daily use.

[ElGranEspresso]

ECM make an almost identical machine to the T64 using the same guts, but called the S-Automatic 64, there's also the Rocket Faustino and the Quamar M80e in this class worth a look.

Super useful. As I do on most occasions, I’ll end up blowing my budget out...

[Magic_Matt]

The ECM V-Titan is only a whisker over budget, too.