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Single dose grinders: a marketing scam?

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  • Whorl
    commented on 's reply
    It's tough. I weigh output from the hopper grinder (Eureka) to be consistent with my shots. It works, but I can see the advantage to weigh first with SD.

  • barri
    commented on 's reply
    If you weigh your beans before grinding then definitely get a SD with the added advantage of not needing to purge between bean changes or grind settings. If brew ratio isn't important to you then you use a hopper machine but I personally feel brew ratio is a great way to dial in and should be considered

  • EspressoAdventurer
    replied
    Originally posted by ArtW View Post
    I thought I’d do a simple experiment on pop-corning so I extracted two ristrettos back to back with the only difference being the first was single dosed and the second had about 150grams in the hopper. The yield was different by just over a gram with the single dose having the lower yield but I couldn’t taste any different flavours in the cup. I would guess that the minor discrepancy in yield is more likely caused by inconsistency in my distribution and tamping. Whilst it’s not a lot to conclude on, I’m going to say that for my palate, popcorning isn’t an issue.
    So What then to you Is ? Pop-Corning ...Art?

    And to confirm your reference to Yield - Was this the total shot (liquid) volume by weight out of the machine?
    Yes? Or a reference to something else , such as the volume by weight of the grind ?

    Is the machine a Semi Auto? Button / Timed or Water Volume (Flow Meter) controlled machine?
    Or a totally manual process.

    Was the 'taste' ...that of an Espresso ? Or say a Long Black / variety? Or a White ?

    Leave a comment:


  • booffa
    replied
    I wouldn't call is a 'scam' but 'hype'
    You cannot achieve zero retention no matter what/how you try.

    For NZ, they named it that way as to do with marketing .... me thinks?

    I find a SD is very useful when we are trying different beans

    Leave a comment:


  • ArtW
    replied
    Originally posted by WhatEverBeansNecessary View Post
    Don't forget as you allude to in your post there is a different between retention, exchange and weight of beans in and out. Just because you have the same in and out does not mean you have zero retention.
    Precisely. Which is why I get annoyed with a number of videos where people who should know better put 20 grams in and get 19 out and declare it to have retention of 1g. Even more egregiously, I recently saw a review video where the “professional barista” twice used times dosing, got within .5 grams of the target dose and declared it to have .5 grams of retention.

    Leave a comment:


  • Whorl
    commented on 's reply
    These are the things that are getting me at the moment. I'm very interested in the SD world, and don't want bean wastage. Currently minimising it by having a separate grinder for filter, but still lose some to adjusting grind for espresso drinks.
    I've been tossing up going the SD route with something like the Niche Zero or DF64, or sticking with a decent hopper machine (looking at you Mahlkonig X54!).

  • WhatEverBeansNecessary
    replied
    Don't forget as you allude to in your post there is a different between retention, exchange and weight of beans in and out. Just because you have the same in and out does not mean you have zero retention. Likewise sweeping the grind path doesn't mean all of that will come out during the grind, some will likely get into the grinder nooks and crannies and stay there.

    The other benefit of single dose low retention grinders is being able to change between beans easier. You don't have to purge half a shots worth of beans to get all the old grinds out and you don't have a hopper half full of different beans to mess about with.

    Leave a comment:


  • barri
    commented on 's reply
    Many of the newer SD grinders have anti popcorning devices so its basically becoming a non issue

  • ArtW
    replied
    I thought I’d do a simple experiment on pop-corning so I extracted two ristrettos back to back with the only difference being the first was single dosed and the second had about 150grams in the hopper. The yield was different by just over a gram with the single dose having the lower yield but I couldn’t taste any different flavours in the cup. I would guess that the minor discrepancy in yield is more likely caused by inconsistency in my distribution and tamping. Whilst it’s not a lot to conclude on, I’m going to say that for my palate, popcorning isn’t an issue.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • barri
    replied
    I've been dialling in by brew ratio for years using normal hopper grinders but I was sick of purging at the start of the day and between different grinds and different beans, a large amount of wastage. I contemplated a SD grinder but all were too expensive then along came the NZ and too me this was a game changer. At long last a quality affordable grinder that was purpose built to deliver almost zero retention without the need for bellows and other contraptions that perfectly suited my workflow. Its popularity has meant demand has well and truly overtaken supply with people having to wait months to get one with basically no availability from local suppliers meaning it has to be ordered from overseas. I was lucky enough to get one from a former sponsor, my 8th grinder (I need help too) .
    I will always buy a SD grinder from now on, in fact I have just ordered a Lagom P100 (I'll have to mortgage the house) which hopefully will cure my upgradeitis and I know I'll have little trouble selling the NZ
    They are definitely NOT a marketing scam

    Leave a comment:


  • SanderP
    replied
    I'd just add to tompoland"s post which I agree with to say that many SD grinders also have really nice aesthetics and elegant engineering solutions that make them a joy to own / use.

    Cheers

    Leave a comment:


  • tompoland
    replied
    Interesting post ArtW

    1. I don't think that genuinely purpose-built SD grinders a marketing scam however the claim of zero retention is certainly false, if a manufacturer is making such a claim. And if a manufactuer takes a normal grinder and simply adds a tiny hopper and calls is a SD grinder then yes, that is a scam.

    2. Popcorming can be a legitimate concern. The first edition of the Niche Zero had this issue and it was fixed with a small part addition. Well thought out, purpose designed SD grinders such as the EG-1 do not suffer from popcorning.

    3. Pricing is an interesting one. SD is a relatively new concept and there are real costs in R&D that are often recouped across any number of years. But pricing is not always about cost. In other words, while the parts may be less expensive, if the market sees more value in a SD grinder, then a manufacturer will understandably price accodingly.

    I have a number of SD grinders (yes, I am seeking help) and the reason is simple; I greatly value extending the peak flavor and viscosity of a bean for as long as possible and loading a grinder with only the beans I need for that espresso is very helpful.

    Leave a comment:


  • EspressoAdventurer
    replied
    Originally posted by ArtW View Post
    I am sure many will disagree........
    Well I wont be. Theory Busted !
    As I have heard said - At the very Least with a Marketer / Advertiser you know what they are Selling.
    Which cant be said for a Journalist!
    Pls see my post (2-3pages in, some 3+years ago) for the NZ. Note they subtlety changed the prime marketing / selling premise of why the market needed it / what it would do!
    And their own reviewer subsequently confirmed it does retain grinds! As All grinders do.

    Originally posted by ArtW View Post
    I moved to single dosing six months ago ....
    Stick it at it. Speciality coffee is all about getting what your taste buds want out of the bean - consistently.
    Consistency is the key here. Very many here talk of Dialing in the grind, few if any refer to zoning in on the optimal dose.
    Done in unison. And a consistent dose is an integral part of consistency in the recipe
    Originally posted by ArtW View Post
    [*]Retention - Opening up my Macap I was surprised to find little coffee grounds inside..... its actually got a very short (though horizontal) grind path. I think a lot of non-single dose grinders may achieve fairly low retention.
    True thats why I had nil hesitation when offered the chance to upgrade from a Mzzr 64mm burr set to the larger 83mm burr grinder.

    Originally posted by ArtW View Post
    [*]Popcorning
    Yep busted. The only effect is on Time. Time taken to grind a set dose. Otherwise total internet marketing fluff.

    Originally posted by ArtW View Post
    [*]Value / Features .....
    Go figure. You could say Exactly why Industry Leaders sold the concept of Boards being only responsible to maximise profits!

    PS You can Email Mythbusters ! will ya...?

    Leave a comment:


  • Nubarista
    replied
    If you are going to use it as how you would use a hopper based grinder then its not worth the while. I would argue if someone is using it with one blend 90 percent of the time making the same drink 90 percent of the time then just stick to hopper. If you run 2 different blend / soe then also do different ratio drinks at a time then single dosing is beneficial as you would likely not having to purge large amount of coffee

    Leave a comment:


  • ArtW
    started a topic Single dose grinders: a marketing scam?

    Single dose grinders: a marketing scam?

    I moved to single dosing six months ago using my "old school" Macap M4 doser model. I changed to single dosing mainly to reduce waste and mess. Also with covid, not much need for more than a few shots in a row anymore?. Since then I've been considering single dose grinders and reading and watching plenty of reviews. I will readily acknowledge that a single dose grinder will have an easier and simpler workflow. However, beyond that, I haven't been convinced of the benefits. In particular there are three areas that I'm sceptical about:
    1. Retention - Opening up my Macap I was surprised to find little coffee grounds inside. I always sweep out the doser and "spout" but its actually got a very short (though horizontal) grind path. I see many reviews that state a retention number that seems to be very difficult to justify. 'Grinds in' versus 'grinds out' just isn't an accurate measure and the only way I can see of accurately measuring retention is to open up the grinder and clean it out, weighing the grounds found inside. I think a lot of non-single dose grinders may achieve fairly low retention.
    2. Popcorning - I haven't seen evidence to support this but the theory is that if there is no weight on the beans (as would occur if the hopper was kept at least partially full), then the grind distribution will be less uniform as the beans bounce about before being dragged into the burrs. The solutions I have seen for this on single dose grinders do not seem to fix this problem, they just cover it up. This does prevent the breans from jumping out of the machine but if there is a real impact on grind distribution then that is a continuing issue.
    3. Value / Features - Single dosing requires less features, ie. small or no hopper, no timer or fancy electronic dosing, so they should be cheaper and yet they tend to cost more. A good examplle is the Eureka Mignon XL 65 versus the Oro. You lose flexibility and features whilst paying the same or more, hence my suggestion that this is a marketing scam.
    I am sure many will disgree with my hypothesis so I'm very interested to hear why single dose grinders are worthwhile.
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