Battle of the Giants

[JohnA]

so today i decided to open the P100 to give it a clean and must say it was absolutely simple to do and there was bugger all in there. The EG1 is easier again and quicker however. you cant get between the burrs on the EG1 as you can on the P100

With the EG 1 the only way to clean between the burrs without pulling the lower burrs off is to adjust to a very coarse setting, opening up the burrs, then using one of those steam want cleaning brushes.

In saying that though, when i swapped out the burrs in the EG 1 there wasnt anything really there and because there are no screws, ground coffee doesnt get caught there.

[JohnA]

I'll tell you one thing, moving onto single dosing grinders (which i had said in the past i would never do) has made me try many different beans from different roasters.

With my mazzer Kony S, i had 2 or 3 beans i realy enjoyed and would rotate on a monthly basis.

Now i am trying so many, that i could have 3 to 4 different beans rotating daily, with lots of note taking and of course lots of caffeine overdose.

Though i do miss the mazzer when entertaining and making lots of coffees back to back.

[tompoland]

"caffeine over dose" helluva lot better that caffeine under dose!

[tompoland]

Have to say I'm tending to pair a bean batch with one grinder and a grinder with one espresso machine. it's as confusing as hell otherwise.

Probably the start of my adventure into dementia?

[JohnA]

Today i tried to brew espresso using the EG 1 with the ULF burrs and for me it was a major fail. I was getting to the point the burrs touching and the shots still were 10 second gushers.

Now from what i have read and i will quote it, apparently because of the design of the EG1 you can go well beyond this point without a problem but i am not brave enough to give it a try.

Here is the passage from pulling low fines espresso shots i was referring to


Now, you may be tempted to think that this grind size where the burrs touch is the finest grind setting of the EG-1. And it is not at all ! One design features of the EG-1 that took me a while to figure out is that the plate against which the upper burr sits is free to move up and down (but remains parallel to the bottom burr) during grinding. I am unsure of why this is, but I suspect it has something to do with improving either the alignment or the particle size distribution of the grinder. It could also just be there to allow you to go from a very coarse to a very fine grind size without having to grind the particles that remain between the burrs. Regardless, this means that even if your burrs touch, the upper burr will be lifted slightly when grinding, and the gap between your burrs will be larger than zero. In fact, I can go at least as fine as the 4.5 mark below zero, which corresponds to 5.5 dial numbers below zero, or in other words 3.5 numbers below the points where I first hear the burrs touching.

With that set-up I usually need a grind size in the range 4.8 to 5.2 when grinding 18 to 20 grams of coffee for a blooming shot with the paper filter sandwich method. Hence, I go between 2.8 and 3.2 finer than where I start hearing the burrs touch. With more classical shot profiles, I typically use grind sizes of 5.1 to 5.5 depending on the beans.

I may brave it eventually and just go one step at a time finer, but for now, ill stick to using the burrs for their intended purpose only

[JohnA]

i may email weber direct and see what they have to say. Im more interested now to see if this is actually part of the design

[JohnA]

i got a very quick reply back from Webber and this is what they said

The upper burr mount does have a little necessary freedom of movement, so you can go beyond the point where the burrs first touch while no coffee is being ground. If you're at the point where the burrs touch you can grind a dose of coffee and adjust finer as you're grinding, for example if the first touch while empty is at 5 you can grind a dose and as you're grinding adjust to 4, since the burrs are always forced apart to the maximum separation while coffee is being ground.

So from that i would say i wont bother, as when the grinding is finished obviously the burrs will touch again, or you'd have to quickly adjust coarser. So ULF burrs will be used purely for pour over

[Budgiesmuggler]

Also sounds like your grind would be inconsistent taking webers advice

[JohnA]

i decided to do a taste test today between the 2 grinders for pour over. Now both burr sets are still fairly new, i got the P100 around 2 weeks prior to the EG1 then another week after that before i installed the ULF burrs into the EG 1
So in reality, i really need to give them more time with many more kilos of coffee through them before really making a call between the 2, however, i just wanted to see what i though at this early stage

Remember i love the EG-1 for espresso with the core burrs, so swapping over to the ULF was a big deal for me. Not that i dont enjoy the espresso's from the P100, just found the EG1 edges it out, though for milk based drinks, the P100 with its high uniformity SSP burrs wins out for my tastes.

Now back to the test at hand...

bean i was using is from Padre and its a Peru Monte Grande



This was done in a V60 using Tetsu's 4:6 recipe

Draw down were almost on par up till the last 2 pours where the one from the P100 slowed down a bit and took almost 40 seconds longer in the end to finish

Final bed between the 2 looked interesting also ( i forgot to take a photo of the grind particles between the 2...(ooops)



Taste:

At this early stage, id say the EG1 has the edge...they both are great tasting coffees, there is no doubt about it. The acidity on the EG1 was more lively. Cleaner mouthfeel also with the EG1 but with slightly less body then the P100.

There is no science behind my testing of course other then my opinion, and i also knew which one i was drinking.

Still, i continue on for a while longer testing between the 2 then make a decision if i want to keep the EG1 purely as a pour over grinder or go back to the core burrs.

[tompoland]

I would have guessed this completely the other way around. (Never used a P100). It just reinforces my previous belief that conclusions are best formed after a grinder is on your bench and you have a favorite to benchmarkmiy against. The only slight flaw in that is the fact that you have to buy the next grinder, or borrow it?

[JohnA]

when i had the core burrs in the EG-1 the P100 was day and night ahead of the EG-1 for pour over, but with the ULF burrs, the EG-1 has the edge.
As for espresso, remember, the burrs in the P100 are still new (barely seasoned) as the core burrs had been used the the Eg-1 for around a year, so results could change.

As i said though, i dont call it results, rather then personal taste. My wife loves the taste the mazzer Kony produced, so she would also be a lover of the niche. SOme of the same beans she loved in the Kony she isnt as fond of in the P100 or EG 1

[MW11]

When I saw the first post, I was telling myself EG-1 got to be better. Congrats on both amazing grinders and enjoy

[Bosco_Lever]

John, the popcorn is ready now that you have a Key to compare.....

[JohnA]

Just got delivered today as I was leaving for work so will have to wait till tomorrow..I was going to take a sickie but thought I can wait 1 day

[jasiano]

yeah I'm keen to see a real world comparison as well....

The Weber EG was one of the first grinders that made me go 'wow look at that' and from there I looked at all the other $4/5k single does grinders... and 'settled' for the Key because it was within my budget and was a Weber.

[JohnA]

well here is the key, have set it in its place and will have my first play with it tomorrow. Today i just fired it up to see all is working properly and ground a few beans. Damn is this thing quiet. I have the magic tumbler but didnt bother putting the wiper in, as everyone says you still need to WDT

Its a lot smaller then i thought it would be

[JohnA]

first shot this morning after dialing in. I started with webers recommended starting point from the 0 point. Way too course. A couple of adjustments and i was there.
Speed i have set at 90rpm

so this was the 3rd shot from these burrs, so am imagining things will change a bit over time. i dont bother running kilos of beans through grinders to season them, i prefer to enjoy the ride and appreciate any changes that may come with time.

So first shot...well interesting for a conical burr grinder. Everything you read about the espresso been thinner holds very true.
In saying that though, the shot was still nice, didnt have the same clarity as the EG-1 or P100.

As its only my first day with it, i wont comment on workflows and pros and cons just yet as i would like to spend more time with it.

[jasiano]

yeah the manual "add 1 and 3/4 turns from zero" is crazy coarse, it should be the baseline for filter coffee rather than espresso.

[Jams]

I also found WW's instructions way too coarse. I will say I'm now on day 3 of owning this little beaut, and the workflow is becoming so much better than I had hoped.

[Melbournecoffeeguy]

Hey John,

I have been following your Battle of Giants thread for a little while and was hoping to reach out to help!

I am based in Melbourne (Richmond) - more than happy to pay a fee (~$100) to see if you can come out and help me know if I am doing something wrong!

I have a lagom p100 which I have owned for about a year, with the standard burrs and no matter what I cannot seem to make a great coffee!

My set-up is the La Marzocco Linea Mini modded with Ricks EMP mod, i tend to like lighter roasts and have tried the following beans:

1. acoffee
2. seven seeds
3. Maker
4. Bench
5. Supreme
6. Otherside
7. Patricias
8. Probably a whole heap more

I can make 'drinkable' coffee, but after spending so much money, I was hoping to get a lot more out of it, or that I have stuffed something up while cleaning the grinder!

I was just hoping I could get some help in regards to having someone else come in to see if they could produce a different result?

Thanks a heap!

[jchong]

What do you perceive to be the difference between drinkable coffee and coffee worthy of your investment? Are there particular flavours that you're looking for that you're not getting?

[JohnA]

Lets see if we can narrow it down a bit

What exactly is it you dont like about the coffee you are making and were you getting better results with your previous grinder, or different flavour combination you enjoyed more?
and if that is the case, what was your previous grinder?
What recipe are you using? How many grams in to grams out and how long?

Am more then happy to help out and dont require any payment to do so, just a matter of finding the time.

There is a wealth of knowledge here on the forums and i am sure many more experienced then me will also chime in to help you out

[JT1]

Any other details on your routine? I assume you’re following the recipe of the roaster.

Are you RDTing for the P100? WDT?

Might as well run through your process end to end, I’m using a P100 and a LMLM.

[tompoland]

The other question Melbournecoffeeguy is have you had great coffee from a different grinder and if so, which make and model? The larger flat burrs have a reputation for being more difficult to get a great pour from due to there being less fines to hold the puck together. Doubly so using the light roasted beans that you prefer.

[JT1]

JohnA I guess we have a winner!!!

got any outtakes on your decision?

[JohnA]

i still find the EG-1 to be slightly ahead of the P100 in espresso however i did not like the core burrs for pour over, so i found it a waste to have such a grinder sitting on my bench to make 1 pour over coffee a day, as im the only one drinking it. The P100 also makes a very good pour over, and is so close in espresso thats its a no brainer to keep it and use it for both. To be fair though, the ULF burrs have only seen around 2 kilos of coffee, so no where near seasoned as yet, so i am sure that will improve

In saying that, i am sure i will regret selling the EG-1 as i do love it

[JT1]

Think you sold at the right time, the EG-1 just came out with version 3 and the grind purge button.

[JohnA]

i did see that, and i do wonder if it would be a useful feature. Also looking at the description, it would seem the ULF burrs dont come standard with the onyx version any more (though some say otherwise) and there has also been a price raise.
For me not enough of an upgrade to justify it

[JohnA]

well i think i am going to regret this decision...Made a pour over today with the P100 and was a bit underwhelmed after enjoying them from the EG-1 for the last few months....

DAMN

[yochiya]

Interesting, thanks for the sharing John.

FWIW, my experience has been that the p100 is super unforgiving and more so than the EG-1 (which I had limited experience with). When you do nail it however, the results are beautiful. Keen on hearing how you go over a few months.

[tompoland]

One swallow doesn't make a summer?

Could be any number of fixable things were off.