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  • New Grinder/ machine ballance

    Narrowing my new machine field to Pro500/Technika V/Pro 700.

    In regards to grinder, I’m after something that grinds fairly quick and obviously grinds well.

    i drink long black with some heated milk, wife has a large string flat white.
    maybe 2 coffees each/day.

    thingking the Eureka Mignon XL 65 works for me, am I on the right track or should I look at better or am I in overkill for these machines?

    thanks!!

  • #2
    Not sure if it's possible for a grinder to be overkill for an espresso machine. Most people make the opposite mistake. The espresso machines you mentioned will benefit from the best grinder money can buy (doesn't mean the most expensive). The Eurkeka will certainly not be overkill. Great choices, all of them.

    Comment


    • coffeemachine
      coffeemachine commented
      Editing a comment
      "You will make a better cup of coffee with a high end grinder and a small domestic machine than a cheap grinder and a top of the range commercial espresso machine". The World Atlas of Coffee, J Hoffman

  • #3
    Hi there.

    What machine and grinder do you have at the moment?

    I have just upgraded to the Profitec 600, from a Rocket Appartamento (which is a HX machine), and the P600 is a solid dual boiler machine, very happy. Double boiler is a big step up from HX in regards to control. Also the 600 and 700 have 2 bar steam pressure, it is very impressive. If you can stretch to a double boiler then do it, then you wont be thinking about upgrading in the near future.

    I did a post on how I ended up upgrading to the P600, that may help you. I did look at the 700, but it was overkill as I only make 4-5 milk based drinks a day max. I have the Eureka Specialita (I have had this for 2 years now), and if I was buying now would look at the XL or Sanremo Allpress. The Atom 65 is also a very good grinder. You should get the best grinder you can.

    You could also look at the Niche and DF64, these may be better for straight espresso. A lot of people like these 2 grinders.

    If you are not making drinks at volume and wont plumb the machine in, the P600 is a better option, then you can put the savings to a better grinder. From your description above 700 may be overkill for you. Hope that helps.

    Here is a review on the P600.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB0eg0hG638&t=89s

    Comment


    • #4
      Ceado
      e37 with hopper
      E37sd for single dosing

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by coffeemachine View Post
        Hi there.

        What machine and grinder do you have at the moment?

        I have just upgraded to the Profitec 600, from a Rocket Appartamento (which is a HX machine), and the P600 is a solid dual boiler machine, very happy. Double boiler is a big step up from HX in regards to control. Also the 600 and 700 have 2 bar steam pressure, it is very impressive. If you can stretch to a double boiler then do it, then you wont be thinking about upgrading in the near future.

        I did a post on how I ended up upgrading to the P600, that may help you. I did look at the 700, but it was overkill as I only make 4-5 milk based drinks a day max. I have the Eureka Specialita (I have had this for 2 years now), and if I was buying now would look at the XL or Sanremo Allpress. The Atom 65 is also a very good grinder. You should get the best grinder you can.

        You could also look at the Niche and DF64, these may be better for straight espresso. A lot of people like these 2 grinders.

        If you are not making drinks at volume and wont plumb the machine in, the P600 is a better option, then you can put the savings to a better grinder. From your description above 700 may be overkill for you. Hope that helps.

        Here is a review on the P600.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB0eg0hG638&t=89s
        many thanks!

        My current machine is a Breville oracle, which has just packed it in.
        I’m hoping for a very long term option, hence the 700.
        rotary pumps and direct plumbing appeal, but not totally necessary, I just don’t want to regret that down the track and spend more $$ later.

        I prefer medium to darker roasts, and I drink Long Blacks, with a probably about 50ml of milk. My wife has double shot flat whites (quite large, but guessing no more than 200ml milk)
        I may have up to 3 a day, my wife rarely has more than one.
        So yes the 700 is definitely overkill, and probably why the Technika appealing (rotary, plumbed, but a bit smaller and cheaper than the 700)
        Id imagine the Technika would be more than adequate for my needs??

        lately been using Aldi beans (🤭)but will go back to local roasters to make the most of the new gear.

        Comment


        • MaverickJohn
          MaverickJohn commented
          Editing a comment
          Hahaha I just upgraded from an oracle but only because I didn't like it. I enjoyed the 920 more than the oracle.
          I ended up buying the la pavoni Botticelli specialty. Same features as the profitec pro 700.
          You will be amazed at what your next machine will be like over the oracle. It's night and day

      • #6
        Hi there,

        no problem, happy to help.

        Here is a video on the Technika, it is a very solid machine, and will be a good fit based on your use cases that you have described.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0nDqkGzbDM

        Here is the user manual, the English section starts at pg 21.
        https://www.ecm.de/fileadmin/manual/...022-02-Web.pdf

        As with all PID HX machines, you set the steam boil temp and that determines the coffee brew temp (see the video at the 6 min mark). With dual boiler you can set each temp individually.

        The 700 is a great machine, I went to the showroom to see both the 600 and 700. The 700 is a much bigger machine, will take longer to heat and really has been designed for multiple drink making. There are people here who use the 700 for a few drinks only, it can be done. Do you have space for this sort of machine?

        The Technika will of course be a smaller machine, will be slightly slower in steaming milk but not by much. The video shows steaming performance.

        Dual boiler machines gives you ultimate control, but the Technika has very good control of brew temps, you just have to make the compromise on steam pressure. Every decision has compromise. The 700 ticks all the boxes, but is a larger machine and will take longer to heat up, so even that machine will have compromises for you. The trick is to find the machine that matches your use cases rather than buy the machine with most features (all of which you will not all use) and make it fit your use case. The 700 would have worked for me, but it was overkill. Also I could put the savings towards a new grinder.

        There is a discussion going on here already about buying a new grinder, this may be helpful, link below.
        https://coffeesnobs.com.au/forum/equ...hasing-grinder

        Here is a video comparing a few of the grinders you are looking at, but it is from a supplier. The Eureka Oro single dose has the same burrs as the XL I believe. With grinders it's the burr set that is important, as that delivers the flavour profile, see the youtube video below at about the 10 min mark. Bigger burrs just grind faster. For my Specialita which has 55mm burrs it takes 12 seconds to grind for 20gm. When you are grinding for milk drinks, the milk hides some of the espresso flavours, so there is another compromise. People here who are big Single Origin (SO) espresso drinkers sometimes spent a lot on a grinder (like the P64, which is an amazing grinder!) to get at those extra flavours, as that is really important to them. With milk based drinks the grinder is also important, but the milk does override some of those flavours, so you need to make the call on what is important to you.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UCY8xekpG4&t=874s.

        If possible I would also suggest going to a shop to see these machines in person, you can then see the build quality, how big they are, what you like etc. Dont just buy from what you see on a web page. ECM and Profitec are owned by the same parent company, and build quality is very good. I like the way they also drain the OPV to the drip tray for the 600. Their attention to detail and build quality is very impressive.

        I really liked my Rocket machine, it was great, but I love my Pro600. I really look forward to using it every morning. I am also getting a lot of grat advice from this site from the members here. Whichever machine you choose, you will really enjoy it.
        Last edited by coffeemachine; 25 July 2022, 08:22 AM.

        Comment


        • #7
          Wow, thanks so much for the detailed advice.

          I see today the 600 going for $3750 AUD, which is about the cheapest I’ve seen the Technika V. So DB or HX same price. Weighing up rotary vs vib I guess.

          size wise, I can make the 700 work but it certainly is at the max I could do, prefer a bit smaller.

          one main reason I’m interested in rotary ECM Tech or the 700 is the line pre infusion when plumbed.

          is this something you’ve found you wish you had in the 600?

          Comment


          • coffeemachine
            coffeemachine commented
            Editing a comment
            I feel the 700 would be overkill given the drinks you are making. Check out the machines in store as that may swing you also. Heck you might see the 700 and love it!

            I have only had machines with water tanks, and as I roast towards the darker side for beans, I don't really think that pre-infusion will help me (my understanding is that pre-infusion is better for medium to lighter roasts and really benefits those drinking SO espresso).

            You can always buy this sort of add-on to give you manual control of the pressure and then do the pre-infusion yourself. It works with any E61 machine.
            https://www.jetblackespresso.com.au/...rate-regulator

            There are so many variables with espresso without even looking at pressure (how dark do you roast beans, temp of the machine, grams in the puck, volume of extraction and so on) that pressure just adds more complexity that I probably don't need.

            When I started to think about a new machine earlier this year I was set on getting a pressure profiling machine (like the new VBM super digital or Crem one), but the more I researched the more I realised these were features that probably would not help me and I could put my money elsewhere. Also previous to my Rocket I had a Rancilio Silvia which lasted over 12 years, it was a simple single boiler machine and lasted a long time. I was really keen to have the next machine last a long time. I am sure those machines I mentioned will last, but there is something to be said for keeping things simple and focusing on reliability. This is why I like ECM/Profitec, they build solid machines and keep things simple. I don't know if I will be able to get a replacement LCD in 10 years time for those other machines, but I know I will be able to service my Profitec for many years to come.

            I make a decent cup of coffee like most people here and now quite consistent, I don't ever feel I need to head down to the local cafe, that is pretty much what we are all trying to do at some level. In fact I find that I am pretty unimpressed with Cafe's when I need to go there, and I am always picking out their mistakes! Oh the life of a coffee snob.....

            So to answer your question, no I do not miss line pre-infusion. With tank machines, you can lift the group head leaver and get pre-wetting of the puck (from the pressure in the boiler), I tried that a few times, but just made the extraction time faster and I could not tell how much water was getting into the puck. So all I do is lift the group head leaver and extract.

            The 700 is super quiet, you cannot really hear it at all. The 600 has a vib pump is much quieter than my Rocket, but of course you hear it. However grinding beans and steaming milk is much nosier and it is hard to dampen the sound of those activities. The vib pump on the 600 is pretty quite, they have put it on rubber stands, I can live with the noise level from it, it does not wake up the whole house. It is almost pleasant, but I am really biased.

            Another advantage to vib pumps is they take a while to come up to pressure, so you get natural pre-infusion from them. The rotary pumps hit full pressure almost straight away. When you go to the shop, take some of your beans, get them to grind them and pull shots. It is what is in the cup that matters, the machine and grinder help of course. But can you tell the difference in the cup?

            Happy to answer any more questions. People here are all very helpful.
            Last edited by coffeemachine; 25 July 2022, 11:48 AM.

        • #8
          Originally posted by tompoland View Post
          Not sure if it's possible for a grinder to be overkill for an espresso machine. Most people make the opposite mistake. The espresso machines you mentioned will benefit from the best grinder money can buy (doesn't mean the most expensive). The Eurkeka will certainly not be overkill. Great choices, all of them.
          This is the one thing i learnt. The grinder is almost always the more important of the purchasing decisions.
          I ordered the atom 65e but got several good recommendations my purpose for ordering this over a single dose as i generally host things at my place and needed a fast but good grinder to deliver a larger amount of coffee.
          All research and opinions tend to go to very good single dosing such as niche/df64/p64.
          But you need to get what suits your needs.
          The niche zero is planned for a August dispatch. P64 is til late October.
          I'm really grateful to this community. Very intelligent crew here
          For reference I got a fairly great deal from Coffeeteca.
          It came with 1kg Coffee and a tamping mat and also cheaper than competition.
          The chrome will also match your new machine but is slightly pricier (it's what I bought)
          Last edited by Javaphile; 26 July 2022, 05:39 AM. Reason: Commercial link removed

          Comment


          • coffeemachine
            coffeemachine commented
            Editing a comment
            Happy to help! Its a journey for all us, without a final destination. smeltitdeltit keep us posted with your final decision.

            Interesting how the commercial link got removed.

          • smeltitdeltit
            smeltitdeltit commented
            Editing a comment
            Will do!! Leaning Technika or 600 I think.

        • #9
          Originally posted by MaverickJohn View Post

          This is the one thing i learnt. The grinder is almost always the more important of the purchasing decisions.
          I ordered the atom 65e but got several good recommendations my purpose for ordering this over a single dose as i generally host things at my place and needed a fast but good grinder to deliver a larger amount of coffee.
          All research and opinions tend to go to very good single dosing such as niche/df64/p64.
          But you need to get what suits your needs.
          The niche zero is planned for a August dispatch. P64 is til late October.
          I'm really grateful to this community. Very intelligent crew here
          For reference I got a fairly great deal from Coffeeteca.
          It came with 1kg Coffee and a tamping mat and also cheaper than competition.
          The chrome will also match your new machine but is slightly pricier (it's what I bought)
          They are both super options.
          I had in my mind what i was set on buying. It was just between choosing the best value proposition.
          I asked for opinions of people in the forums for help, and helped me with my decision. The ECM is universally regarded for their finish and attention to detail, however i went for cheaper machine with same feature set as the details werent something that i was worried about, as long as they were as durable as each other i was ok.
          I got myself the la pavoni botticelli specialty which was a Dual boiler, Rotary pump, dual PID with flow control.
          The ECM would have cost me $1500 extra. and thats ok if finish was also a priority. I consider myself practical with my money, i ended up buying the grinder and machine for less price than a synchronika

          Comment


          • coffeemachine
            coffeemachine commented
            Editing a comment
            You will enjoy this new machine! Congrats.

        • #10
          I just bought the ECM Technika V PID Rotary a couple weeks ago and its temperature very stable same tasting coffee every time just playing around with the flow control i was going go with the ECM Synchronika V3 which was $1000 dearer for a couple of coffees a day bit of a over kill as said in a earlier post.
          But whatever machine you pick enjoy it nothing is better than making your own coffees at home with the right beans.

          Comment


          • #11
            Originally posted by GARYCAMP View Post
            I just bought the ECM Technika V PID Rotary a couple weeks ago and its temperature very stable same tasting coffee every time just playing around with the flow control i was going go with the ECM Synchronika V3 which was $1000 dearer for a couple of coffees a day bit of a over kill as said in a earlier post.
            But whatever machine you pick enjoy it nothing is better than making your own coffees at home with the right beans.
            Thanks! How have your found the steam performance out of interest?

            Comment


            • #12
              Steam pressure is good no complaints it does nice microfoam.

              Comment


              • #13
                Example of steaming for machine
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=335oD8u_61c


                Good hands on with the machine, milk steaming at the 8min mark.
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c21-ehesLdc&t=571s

                It is a very impressive little machine.

                Comment


                • #14
                  Thanks. I did t realise there Technika is almost as large as the Synch or 700. Not a deal breaker but something I need to look at carefully (with a grinder I’m probably pushing the limit). I’ve attached a pro 600 AR photo of how I will locate my machine for perspective.

                  Slight off topic, how does the quick mill DBs compare to the Profitec?

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Comment


                  • #15
                    Looking good!! Don't forget room for the grinder!

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