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Hedone Honne Hybrid Grinder - First Looks (August 2022)

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  • #16
    I have played with the Hedone Honne for over a week now.

    Another CS member CleanFinish (who is a long time owner of a Versalab) reached out to me about the 3D funnel printing. Although I wasn't able to help him, he was able to help me with his tremendous wealth of coffee knowledge. I received much needed advice in dialing in and using the grinder. He even went above and beyond with virtual dialing/tasting lessons to assist me in the grinder adjustments with my Decent on LR V2 profile.

    Grind Setting Marker Reset
    A great tip he gave was resetting the grind setting marker on the top funnel. I closed the burrs so they're touching to find the zero point. Then backed off the grind setting and stuck a piece of tape to establish a new marker at the front of the grinder (around hedone's '8' marker). It was much easier to see now that it's in the front of the grinder. Then after a few more adjustments to grind setting, I reset the front 8 sticker again so that for espresso, I know the likely range would be +/- the 8 range.

    I won't comment much on the grinder performance yet as I haven't tried enough grinders to compare or have the palate to describe the differences. The beans I use are of the el cheapo variety. I have ordered some expertly roasted light beans from Artificer to see if I can taste any difference.

    Hedone Honne Dislikes
    Currently I have 2 main dislikes:
    1. The marking stickers are not of normal decimal scale (not 5 marks or 10 marks per number). The numbers are also situated in between 2 gradations. I don't see the point of having these stickers, why not just use the TITVS approach and etch normal markings in.
    2. The packaging - my hedone was damaged by DHL. Diana (Hedone Sales) has been very considerate though and actioned to remediate this issue straight away. The customer service is top notch.
    Hedone Scale Sticker
    Click image for larger version

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    Vernier scale
    While replacing the front marker, I have also printed a Vernier scale for the top funnel marker. This will allow finer adjustments in the absence of a digital readout (like the Heycafe H1). I believe 'jkim makes' came up with this idea on the Lagom P100.

    On the Hedone sticker, the gradation markings are on a 45mm radius arc @ 1.85-2.00mm per marking.
    The inner funnel is around 41mm radius, so I printed a bunch of vernier scales between 10.5mm per 7 gradations to 11mm. It turned out a number of around 10.8mm for 0-0 to 1-0 aligns well for my machine.
    Note: the Hedone sticker looks to be stuck on by hand, so there are some alignment issues as well. The sticker inner border of larger numbers on my machine are further out from inner funnel than lower numbers. Due to this, the top funnel marker would only be accurate for a section of the markings (good enough for espresso only, since you'll only move +/- 1 number). Having stuck on this vernier scale by hand as well, I know from experience that it's near impossible to get good alignment by hand, unless the sticker is cut to be hard up against an edge.
    This would always be an issue if the measurement scale is hand stuck on instead of laser etched or machine finished.


    Vernier scale at work - difficult to see in a photo as you have to view the readings front on.
    This read 7.55
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    Sticker runs closer to funnel the lower the number - suggests hand stuck on.
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    • #17
      fatalerror glad I was able to help. I love coffee and I love how this hobby brings people together. That said, there is also a lot of mis-information or old information out there. Coffee is constantly evolving...italian coffee was the benchmark back in the day, today we have 'sour' coffee and last 10 years we have Decent which gave us so much more data and turned coffee way more scientific.

      When we first spoke, as someone new to coffee you've certainly got some pretty nice and advance toys - Decent and Hedone. But like many I've met previously, having nice toys but lacking in education on how to use them and not having trained one's palette means folks often chasing their tails. Today we have end-less variables on the Decent (the illusion you can buy a 'F1 car' and expect it to make us an overnight Schumacher), randomly trying diff things gleaned from youtube (which often refer to completely different beans e.g. US youtubers drink much lighter roast than Oz), usually using budget beans (makes sense we put cheap fuel into our F1) or self roasted beans (which introduces yet another variable in ie. if you have an issue is it your dialling in or your roast?).

      For transparency: what I did with you was to REMOVE as many variables as possible and help you learn the basics. Don't touch temp, no updose, no playing with 20 profiles (Londinium is great newb profile) and using 1 bean - the ONLY variable we adjusted with grind size and tasting/learning the differences that makes in-cup. We found the chirp point, then backed up, pulled a bunch of shots via you tasting (no 1 skill in coffee!) and me looking at the extraction (and Decent graphs) to ultimately find the grind setting for your machine+grinder. We were too fine initially but got close after 5-6 shots. Then we micro-refined another 3-4 shots and compared what micro adjustments do to the in-cup taste. You asked how would you know when it's right...I said you will once you taste it. And sure enough, when we hit the right grind and you got a balanced, complex, fruity cup, you just went "wow". Finally, we discussed how you described many of your cups as 'sour'. My suggestion to figure out the different types of 'sour' ie. what does over extraction/channelling taste like (despite the extraction looking pretty visually) vs acidity sour (lemon vs grapefruit vs peach sour). Former sour bad, whilst latter sour is good/whats in the cup. And avoid trying to 'hide' the acidity of the beans (over cooking a wagyu beef - u want to taste the bean)

      Hopefully I was able to help set you on the right path to your coffee exploration! thank u for being patient enough to let me 'remotely' dial in your coffee.
      Last edited by CleanFinish; 5 September 2022, 07:48 AM.

      Comment


      • CleanFinish
        CleanFinish commented
        Editing a comment
        Whorl - so it was enlightening for me that many folks in CS roast their own and would describe themselves as drinking 'medium' roast. Then i realise they are talking about dark being oily beans (post 2nd crack) and medium before pre-2nd. So with 'modern' espresso being lead/dominated by US and Nordics...people are all roasting around 1st crack. And just a touch post 1st crack is 'medium'. Anything near 2nd would be dark...just oily dark or regular dark. Back to my original point, around things have moved on yet everyone online often think they're discussing the same thing but in fact rather different.

        I will venture to potentially offend some people here. Oz coffee market is tiny relative to the US and the price we're willing to be pay is modest vs Asia. So the green we get in Oz are usually low/modest quality. And when it comes to home roasters, the quality you get are EVEN lower. So may I suggest something...go buy a bag of FILTER roast (this is 'medium enough) and use it for espresso from modern roaster in Oz. Names I like/recommend include: Artificer, Primary, Code Black, CoffeeAlchemy, Market Lane. Also consider: Small Batch, Skittle Lane, Wood & Co, etc

        Should be an interesting experiment....can u tell the different quality in the green? how about the roast style? does it make you want to explore modern espresso? or stick too more classic darker roast?

        ps: modern coffee tend to prefer lighter roast...ie. around 1st crack, pull shots more than 1:2 ratio ie. 1:2.5 or more 18g:40-50g liquid, and the extraction would be faster than usual 30secs. Visually it will look FAST versus folks that are used to dark roast/syrup looking shots. And ultimately, would be described as 'sour. The issue however, it could be a bad shot coz folks don't know how to pull a light roast but it could also be coz folks not used to drinking the bean taste vs the heavy roast tone (when roasting around 2nd crack).

        pps - you're pulling 1:2 ratio, 2nd crack, 150mil milk...i would call this the 'typical' aussie big milk drinker receipe. Try 1:2.5 ratio, just pass 1st crack and sub 50-70ml milk.
        Last edited by CleanFinish; 5 September 2022, 11:32 AM.

      • Whorl
        Whorl commented
        Editing a comment
        CleanFinish - I try to be very careful in classifying my roasts. I am clearly very much an amateur on this front, and have moved into it due to budget constraints, trying to reduce my ongoing expenditures. But a happy little hobby that I enjoy. I believe I have slowly over time pushed my roasts longer for more development, but have lost something in the process and will be adjusting my method accordingly.

        I am quite sure that while I could detect the difference in taste between my own roasts and some of the commercial roasts you have mentioned, I would not be able to quantify exactly what the difference is and why it tastes better.

        You have given me some interesting things to think about though, enough for me to play around with and hopefully complete some comparisons over the next few months. I would also say those great espresso's I've had in the past would adhere more to modern lighter standards than the classic darker roasts, I will certainly have to play around to broaden my tastes. Thank you sir, I really appreciate the dialogue.

      • CleanFinish
        CleanFinish commented
        Editing a comment
        Whorl - yes, seems like many folks go into roasting for economic reasons. Nothing wrong, just that roasting is actually super super hard.
        If you don't already, suggest you cup your roast between batches, over resting period and versus bags from roasters i mentioned. That's the best way I know many roasters I respect do it - it takes the brewing method out of the question, reducing yet another factor in the cup.

        Nice talking to you too!

    • #18
      CleanFinish You describe a Medium Roast as a touch post First crack. Do you mean just after Rolling First crack has finished? This is what I have always referred to as a Medium roast. If you extend the roast from here, the roast notes tend to dominate more, body will increase, sweetness will decrease as will acidity and fruit notes. Finding an acceptable drop point is challenging and depends upon the bean type and processing method. The beans also require a longer rest period.

      Most green beans in Oz are low/modest quality as that is what many roasters use for espresso blends. One just has to look at the volumes in comparison to the small amounts of micro lots imported.
      Good quality beans can be had if you know where to look, and are prepared to cup them to make your own analysis. Importers are quite creative ("fanciful") in their tasting notes.
      I am positive you and I have offended quite a few with our opinions. That however is the beauty of the coffee scene, there is enough variety for everyone to be happy with their choices.
      Thank you for your description of the "flick" taste, I intend to borrow it if you do not mind.

      Comment


      • CleanFinish
        CleanFinish commented
        Editing a comment
        Bosco_Lever Flick = dirty end, kick to me. Friend calls it spicy. Either way, I've had plenty of dark roasts without this dirty finish - it seems to be very popular/a signature of kind for many oz roasters. Took me a while when I returned to Oz to find roasters without this 'dirty end'.

        As for green quality...i'm sure there are good ones imported in, especially if you willing to pay. I was just referring to the 'average' green one may get in US or Asia - i generally find the quality much higher.

        Medium roast - I don't roast and only know from second hand via roasters I respect. So if my description of roasting is poor/unclear, i do apologise. But pretty much what you describe,.

        re offending people - I hope folks are open for debate but if i get banned then I know otherwise! it's a hobby, i hope we all don't take it too seriously.

    • #19
      For properly light beans, Monastery in Adelaide do a great example of evenly roasted through the bean and also lightly roasted.

      Almanac in Brisbane are a good example of lighter roasted but more normal Australian style, which is darker on the outside than the middle.

      I enjoy both a lot, and for different reasons. Monastery tends to present as a sweeter, rounder, lower acidity cup, whereas Almanac has some angry acidity that I enjoy (I think this is due to less development within the bean, but I don't roast so don't take that as having any weight to it)

      Comment


      • #20
        With full respect to all contributers, the posts are now about a very different subject to the Hedone Honne. Not a biggie and I'm sure many will find the posts interesting and valuable and could therefore go on for some time. Might be time to start a new thread.

        Comment


        • #21
          just came across this when searching for Honne after reading stuff on the Londinium forums where Reiss and others talk about high end grinders... great review! Love the look of it, from all I've read online it seems to work very well for all sorts of roast profiles and for both espresso and pourover, which is interesting...
          given the small footprint I wonder if I can sneak it onto my coffee bench next to my Key without the wife noticing....

          Comment


          • #22
            I recently was asked to help check out a GS3 MP and align a rather old Versalab M3 - which turned out to be rather janky. Quiet a few issues once i got my hands on it, belt was melted from jams/excess torque, some hex screws were stripped, on/off replaced, static wiper missing, moving wiper broken/repaired. And as it turned out, the newly installed burrs was quiet off alignment and the owner was only able to get coarse grinds at close to chirp - he could not get espresso level grinds. Luckily I always to improve on it and got espresso grinds in the end.

            Anyways, I'm bringing it up here is coz the motor on this unit reminded me of the one in Hedone - way noisier but way more powerful too/higher RPM.
            It could be Hedone uses similar motor the original Versalab - whist my versalab is whisper quiet but also more moderately powerful. Just thought folks may find this insight useful
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            • tompoland
              tompoland commented
              Editing a comment
              Interesting thanks for that. Are the cork feet on the verselab aftermarket? It looks like quite a clever idea. Not that either machine would probably need them it's just if for some reason the original feet became damaged it could be good to keep in mind.

            • CleanFinish
              CleanFinish commented
              Editing a comment
              The feet are just stick on soft pads. I use similar that I got from Ikea/Bunnings. Helps stop scratching table and sliding it around super easy.

          • #23
            It is finally here, after delayed from Hedone side for a week (they said they are testing the new wooden box after some damage they ship to Australia) and delayed from DHL delivery and long weekend....finally here. the new wood protection looks amazing and the box seems only damage a little and the grinder survived through the long trip (minor scratches on the bottom base but the stainless steel cover hide them away).

            I have 1kg of coles coffee to throw in and season it later tonight, by consider the burr is not coated hence should be enough to break in.

            Can't wait to share the flavour!
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            • tompoland
              tompoland commented
              Editing a comment
              jun dont be surpised if you are you chasing the dial up until 10kg. I put 2kg through initially. Then got sick of chasing the dial so put another 8kg through slowly over a few hours (outside, it was messy). That fixed it. So somewhere between 2 and 10kg they start behaving.

            • jun
              jun commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks Tom for your suggestions. It looks absolutely amazing and well-built. I found the noise is fine to me. But seasoning definitely a pain for me and the coffee grounds just go anywhere except the bowl hence very impressive how you manage patiently put another 9kg.

            • tompoland
              tompoland commented
              Editing a comment
              "the coffee grounds just go anywhere except the bowl"

              Yep. Gotta RDT for sure. And I use a funnel too.

          • #24
            Just done some TDS on a wash peru AAA from beanbay, self roast 2 days ago(soooo fresh). 18 gram 36out 35 second on Decent espresso default profile at 92c. Total extraction is around 21% which I am very happy with it consider the bean is really fresh and if extract slightly more (say 41grs) the total extraction should be even higher. Oh the grinder is now just under 2kg coffee seasoned.

            Benchmark: my hyperalign p64 with ssp lab sweet burr usually do this kind of coffee total extraction around 20 - 20.5%, but taste super nice tho. Filter around 23% usually 20 grs in 320 grs out.
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            • tompoland
              tompoland commented
              Editing a comment
              Very interesting thanks.

          • #25
            As I neither like spending 150$ on a hopper lid for Honne, nor the original design of 3d lid(that you can't see through how the beans getting grind, and I do think this is one of the advantage against other grinders). Hence I brought some liquid resin and 85mm mould from Kmart (not sure Kmart can be mentioned for this forum as not sponsor), take 48 hours to fully dry and harden. The result is good, shape is nice to fit Honne as in photo. However, I then find the loading is a problem where the feeding gap is too small. Then I go ahead and made a 3d model of TITUS-like feeding tunnel and it support with two arms that works like chopsticks with a little help of blu tack.

            I shoot a short video here: https://youtube.com/shorts/bB5eNJkdmzE?feature=share

            I might keep doing some further improvements to perfect this "poor-man's Titus". ​
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            • jun
              jun commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks Poland.

              I am not exactly sure meaning of "chase the dial", but my Honne keep grinding coffee consistently at a same notch for a same coffee. Median roast Kenya at 4.4- 4.5 which I am quite happy to see I have much much more room for finer adjustments.

            • tompoland
              tompoland commented
              Editing a comment
              A bit ambiguous sorry. What I meant was having inconsistent results (when not changing the dial) or unpredictable results (when changing the dial) early on. I had that with the Honne and the Livi but both settled after seasoning. Versus the little Olympia Moca SD that just landed on my coffee island that appears to be both consistent and predictable right out of the box.

            • jun
              jun commented
              Editing a comment
              No worries. For me usually the shots are running within 4 seconds difference at the moment. BTW I am doing "default" profile on decent which the first shot can be 41s for example and the second shot right after can be 37- ish seconds. I am okey with this time difference.

          • #26
            I had made a video for my morning workflow with Hedone Honne.

            https://youtu.be/d96fdMXQ1q8

            Yesterday I just printed and installed a antipopcorn stopper that some other member shared on Honne forum, and it works really well. More like a titus grinder now!

            Updates: I have stop using RDT, as it doesn't make much difference in terms of retention.

            Comment


            • tompoland
              tompoland commented
              Editing a comment
              very interesting from whoa to go. thanks for the effort and for sharing.

            • Blues1143
              Blues1143 commented
              Editing a comment
              Great video - I would certainly watch more of your content

            • jun
              jun commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks Tom, you definitely inspired me to do this video. (also help me to put final trigger to buy this grinder as well, lol)

          • #27
            Great review thanks

            Comment


            • Blues1143
              Blues1143 commented
              Editing a comment
              its probably a niche zero if you drink medium/dark or dark, bit of a different conversation if you trend light

          • #28
            Hi! First post here, but long time member on a few other coffee forums. Just got my Honne package home, after a year of going back and forth about it. Have been drooling over the Versalab for years, but finally admitting that if I am getting any hybrid burr grinder it will have to be one from Europe, since I live in Europe.

            I have a bad old story with a used Cimbali Max, which was harmed in transport and that I never got going. The memory of that lemon never quite stopped gnawing on me, but now I can put it to rest.

            Thanks for the review, Tom! It was after reading it that I decided to bite the bullet and order. Have only quickly compared it with the Niche Zero at home, but tomorrow it will go to work with me and meet the HG-1 +WUG M1 motor mod.

            I like the process, but with the Strietman ES3 at home, it is painfully obvious how different it is to the NZ process… I made a big mess when I mixed them up, pouring grinds from the NZ catch cup into a portafilter already filled with whole beans to pour into the grinder…
            it will all work out @ the office, where there is a normal (58 mm) sized portafilter with a basket that sticks to it.

            Comment


            • tompoland
              tompoland commented
              Editing a comment
              Glad to hear the review helped zix

          • #29
            It did, Tom! Only problem is that now I want the Moka SD too… it will have to wait a year or so, though. Have too many grinders. Well, you know how that goes, if anyone does.

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            • #30
              Great review tompoland , I have had mine since July and its the best all round grinder ive used. jun does the anti popcorn device you are using have a slit in it in order to put on and take off or do you have to take the grinder apart? I don't like the one that comes with the grinder its a little obtrusive. I found a 3D printing file from sorinL, is yours the same file? Thanks!

              Comment


              • jun
                jun commented
                Editing a comment
                Yes it is from sorinL. You don't have to take the grinder apart to put the anti popcorn device on and it works amazing.
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