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Coffee Tech DF83 Vs Niche Zero (Vs Lagom P64?!) - Which One?

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  • Coffee Tech DF83 Vs Niche Zero (Vs Lagom P64?!) - Which One?

    I'm looking to upgrade my Rancilio Rocky grinder to a single dose grinder, which I think will better fit my current work flow. I'm asking for opinions/guidance/suggestions from the Greater Brains' Trust of Coffee Snobs.

    Coffee Habit: Daily espressos from a Rancilio Silvia with PID. If we have guests, will do the milk drink thing, but I'm not (at least yet) into pour-overs or drip.

    Why The Rocky Isn't Working: You can measure single doses in a Rocky, provided you slap it on the side frequently, but it's not made for that (either the single dose or abuse). I'm now trying differing coffees and I'd like a grinder where I can chop-and-change beans.

    Criterion: Easy single dose work flow. No need to smack the grinder to get coffee out. Grind for espressos from lightish to dark roasts - exploring more clarity in the lighter roasts and more body in the darker roasts. I'd like to minimise plastic/silicon parts, particularly in the coffee pathway and motor. It's not a deal breaker, since it's very difficult to remove plastic from stuff, but something I want to avoid. For example, the Rocky has a plastic chute connected to a rubber outlet - not ideal, but liveable. Finally, stepless is better than stepped, but if stepped then with micro adjustments. Should be quieter than the Rocky and, finally, unsure if fast RPM has an effect on the coffee. No large hoppers.

    Ideally priced $700-1400 - although I know I've put a a Lagom in the title...

    What I didn't Short List and Why:
    • Baratza Sette - too much plastic in the body. Not sold on the grind adjustment
    • Fellow Ode - not sure about its espresso capability
    • Breville Smart Grinder Pro - bought one of these off Gray's auctions and gave it away. The plastic gears wore out and it sounded awful. Burrs seemed good, though.
    • Eureka Oro Mignon Single Dose - a serious contender, but not sold on the worm gear for quick coffee switches. Seriously fast RPM - not sure if this is a +ive or -ive
    • Turin/Coffee Tech DF64 - another serious contender, but not happy about the silicon anti-clumping. Would be in the list if the DF83 didn't exist, though.
    • Mahlkonig X54 - another serious contender. Not sure why not. Perhaps not so good on the single dose.
    • Varia VS3 - not enough information.
    • Every grinder with a large hopper - no.
    Coffee Tech DF83
    Pros:
    • Niche like work flow
    • Large burrs that can be swapped
    • Looks well made - a tear down showed a robust motor
    • Possible clarity with lighter roasts with flat burrs
    • Fast grind
    • Bellows ensure not many fines left after grind
    Cons:
    • Silicon anti-clumping
    • Plastic chute
    • Fast RPM
    • Loud?
    • Bit more expensive than Niche from UK, but with warranty. I could buy this on a PayPal pay in 4, so if it were in stock, I could have it today.
    Niche Zero
    Pros:
    • Great single dose work flow
    • Sterling reviews for espresso
    • Quiet
    • Anti-clumping is a metal bar across the chute - I like that
    • Can stuff power cord into body
    • Least expensive grinder on my list (going via Niche). I could buy this now.
    Cons:
    • Plastic gears (I saw this in a tear down). This is a big, big con. I used to own a E92 M3 and the reduction gears in the throttle actuator were plastic on plastic - guess what went? At least the rod bearings remained intact, but I digress...
    • if bought from the UK -> no real warranty

    Lagom P64
    Pros:
    • This is the grinder I really want. Great work flow. Great everything, except $$$
    • Excellent burrs - can swap burrs
    • Excellent reviews covering espresso to drip coffee
    • Variable RPMs
    • Low RPMs
    • Build quality is very high
    • If this was 1/2 the price would buy in a heart beat.
    Cons:
    • Price. I can't afford it this year and probably not until next. Have to get this past the CFO.
    Wrap
    Thank you if you've made it this far. As you can see, I'd buy the Lagom if I could; but economic realities restrict. Any input welcome and a thank you in advance.

  • #2
    The Ceado E5SD looks like it would tick some boxes too ...

    charlie

    Comment


    • BanjoPaterson
      BanjoPaterson commented
      Editing a comment
      Thank you Charlie - that's not one I'd considered. It's not slanted, like the others, so will have to investigate if that is a problem with retention.

    • JetBlack_Espresso
      >JetBlack_Espresso commented
      Editing a comment
      We use one in our kitchenette. One pump of the bellows clears the grinding chamber and chute nicely. Get a demo if you can ?

  • #3
    I can't speak to the DF83 - but there are already a heap of reviews online from the the big coffee content dudes... I had both a Niche and a p64 until just this week, I sold my Niche as I wasn't using it much anymore. If you are chasing clarity and into lighter roasts my recommendation would definitely be to spend the extra money to get a p64 with unimodal/MP burrs - the notion of diminishing returns is thrown around a lot in the 'should i upgrade from the niche to a p64/p100 etc' convo but for me it wasn't an incremental or small gain - it was a very solid jump in quality for what I'm looking for in the cup. Put it this way, I wouldn't be happy to back to using a Niche for my espresso now. I used it for my partners drinks - a typical flat white on a med roast espresso blend - thinking oh the MP burrs probably won't be great for those milky kind of drinks - I swapped and she hasn't noticed lol. So I guess my point there, if I was you, I'd be prioritising your black coffee preferences and not even worry about friends/fam that drink milky drinks. The workflow on both is great, i prefer the p64 because I like grinding straight into the portafilter with the dosing funnel - but that's just a personal preference. I will throw out another bit of unsolicited advice that I always tell people looking at these grinders - the Lagom Mini with moonshines is ~$600 and is very good for clarity - far better than the Niche in my opinion. It just can't do huge volume - all info about that is on their website.

    Comment


    • BanjoPaterson
      BanjoPaterson commented
      Editing a comment
      Thank you for your reply - and also confirming what I suspect, which is waiting a bit for a P64 may well be the go. The Caedo E6SD, mentioned above, while interesting, was at a similar price point to the P64.

      I had been sold on the Niche until I saw its plastic gear set. Now, they may last, but I suspect the burrs (with a phenomenal life) will outlast the motor. The Lagom Mini was another one I'd considered, but even Lagom said the motor life was less than 600 hours with espresso grinds; and given about a minute for 18gms, that means a finite life. Let's see; at 3 x 18gm a day; means 3 minutes a day. Or 20 days per hour. Or about 32 years. Mmm.

      Still, except for the DF83, maybe saving my shekels for a P64 is the way to go?

    • BanjoPaterson
      BanjoPaterson commented
      Editing a comment
      PS: Re-read your comment. I agree going for black coffee should be, and is, my goal; plus your comments that the P64 is NOT a case of diminishing returns. At the end of the day maybe that's it. I saw a Lagom P64 being sold on this site, but now's not a good time. However, they do sometimes come up - but I hate waiting.

  • #4
    Many users in this forum own a niche zero and have had zero problems with their grinder, especially those backing it from the kickstarter days. As for warranty, you are still covered. I had thread issues with mine and niche sent me a hopper replacement without the need to return the other, no questions asked. They are super responsive with questions. I have been considering a flat burr grinder like df83 or P64 for a while now to work out if I want to keep both or get rid of one. I am predominantly a medium-dark roaster with milk based drinks only so the conical is definitely good for that. But flat burrs and different burr sets can help with body if you want a more traditional taste. I guess it’s just a preference thing and which you would prefer to own. The p64 is going to be more the gold standard grinder, and the df83 is only new to the market but great upgrades over its cheaper df64 brother

    Comment


    • BanjoPaterson
      BanjoPaterson commented
      Editing a comment
      Thank you - and you're right there are loads of Niche Zeros out there with very few problems and practically none (zero?) related to the gears. However, we're still evaluating longevity. I'm heading to retirement and I expect my (relatively) good salary to dramatically lower in a few years time. Therefore, longevity is an issue. As I mentioned in my original post, the E92 M3 I owned had plastic-on-plastic reduction gears in the throttle actuators (there were two); and over time would slip and the electronics would pack it in. Now, the irony is the cost of replacing the 2xTA in an E92 M3 (including labour) would actually buy a Lagom P64 plus coffee beans plus...

      But I'm glad that Niche are backing their products, so maybe my nightmare scenario I'm thinking of in retirement may not eventuate. I am still very partial to buying one regardless, as I love the form factor and the quietness. I still have the Niche on the list, but I'm looking for something as solid as my Rocky, which I purchased in 2008 and which is still going strong - despite the side slapping to get the last $@#*^ coffee out.

      PS: I didn't mean to upset any Niche owners. After having been bitten by plastic-on-plastic gears in my M3, I'm a little hesitant in knowingly buying a grinder with a similar set up. Perhaps some (PGSD - Plastic Gear Stress Syndrome). I suspect if I bought a Niche it'd probably outlive me.

    • FilthySudo
      FilthySudo commented
      Editing a comment
      Have a read on the niche zero grinder thread on this forum page. You’ll be pleasantly surprised. Longevity wise, some have owned since 2017/2018, so 4 years or more is a fairly long time to keep a grinder for most. Yes it may not be built like a tank like a rocky and some others, but it’s only being used in a home use setting not a commercial setting, so it would take a long time for the motor and the plastic bits to wear out when you’re only using it for 30 seconds or a minute each day over 5-10 years. Haven’t offended anyone, just helps to research the product and read up on other people’s concerns and whether it’s lasted for them. There is a Facebook group page dedicated to niche zero owners and considering owning one that is not just an aus page but UK, US, Canada etc etc. lots of helpful people on that Facebook group

  • #5
    Ceado 5sd or e37sd

    always get 19.8 to 20 grams from a 20g grind

    slant not an issue in the ceado's design

    I have an e37sd

    Comment


    • BanjoPaterson
      BanjoPaterson commented
      Editing a comment
      Thank you. I'm going to do more research on the Ceado. BTW - the E37SD looks like, as we used to say in the UK, the 'dog's b-llocks' (ie damn good)

    • hedonist222
      hedonist222 commented
      Editing a comment
      I used to have a Baratza 270wi for about 2.5 years. Very well for a single doser - obviously.
      But it felt plastic'y and something I would need parts replacing soon. I'd already needed to change the motor/transmission once in the 2.5 years.

      And baratza's stellar aftermarket customer service was virtually non-existent to me - they threw it on my local supplier to handle. My local supplier is akin to a fish market in a 5th world country.

      Did a quick calculation and found that over 5 years with the baratza and highly likely part-changes, I would be spending much more than the "savings" I managed by getting a baratza as opposed to something well built.

      So sold the baratza and found an e37SD on sale.

      No issues with baratza though - great grinder.

  • #6
    BanjoPaterson what's your preferred roast depth for your espresso?

    Comment


    • BanjoPaterson
      BanjoPaterson commented
      Editing a comment
      I currently drink dark roasts (love body); and recently tried a light/medium roast (at a Cafe) and got... flavours. The nose of, and flavours of, peaches and apples and things - and I'm intrigued.

      Primarily, I like dark roasts. I like chocolate and plum-pudding tastes. However, I would like the ability to try the lighter roasts for these flavours. Sorry if it's not quite a linear thing. Until last year I would've said dark roasts and be done with it.

  • #7
    Interesting how everyone talks about upgrading their grinder and machine so that what is in the cup, improves.
    Very little talk about upgrading the coffee.
    None of these grinders will make an average coffee taste anything but average.
    If you prefer espresso roasted lighter (and what that definition means can vary a lot) than your traditional med/dark roasts, then a good grinder will definitely make an improvement in the cup. Assuming of course, the coffee used is of comparable quality and roasted accordingly.

    Workflow ends up being overlooked. If the grinder can take 64mm burrs, there is a huge choice of burrs to choose from, suitable for the full spectrum from filter roasts to dark espresso. A grinder with 64mm burrs can meet many requirements. The next factors to consider are grind retention and workflow. Poor workflow with either a grinder or machine can be irritating, so spending a bit more to overcome this will make your purchase a lot more enjoyable.

    Circa $2k gets you a good grinder that will suffice your requirements. If you think you need to spend more, how much are you spending on your coffee?

    Comment


    • BanjoPaterson
      BanjoPaterson commented
      Editing a comment
      Very true. I don't roast my coffee, but I buy from one coffee roaster (as I have done for the last half decade). He usually sends the coffee to me on within a day or (max) two of roasting, so when it arrives it's about 3-4 days old and ready to sit for a few more days. The kilo I buy then (usually) lasts between 18-22 days. I re-order when I'm getting down to the last quarter of the bag. Twice this year I've mussed up my timing, and that's meant a trip to somewhere else for 250gm.

      For the last half decade it's been one particular roast (a dark PNG) - I am a creature of great habit. But, getting rebellious in my advancing years, I just want to be able to branch out. It's like when I began enjoying whisky it was with the peaty Lagavulin 16yo, but soon I branched out to the Speysides etc. Lagavulin still is my safe space whisky as much as this PNG dark roast is my safe space bean, but I want to explore and I think a new grinder will enable that better than my ol' trusty Rocky -- which has well sufficed until now.

    • tompoland
      tompoland commented
      Editing a comment
      Lyrebird if I may be so bold, what's your grinder?

    • Bosco_Lever
      Bosco_Lever commented
      Editing a comment
      BanjoPaterson you will find that a newer grinder and some of the new burr sets will enable you to branch out as you did with whiskey.
      To experience more flavours in your coffee, a change to a slightly lighter roast level will help. To me a dark roast is one where there is oil on the outside of the bean. As you reduce the roast development time of a coffee there is a sweet spot where acidity, body, sweetness etc is balanced. It all depends on the skill of the roaster. At this level you can enjoy the attributes of the coffee. Some have high body, others have lots of acidity and associated fruit flavours. There is a huge range to explore just like wine.

      Choose a grinder that is easy to use and clean, and explore the variety of coffee that we are lucky to have. The Rocky can be sold or gifted. It also works well as a decaf grinder.

  • #8
    Originally posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
    Interesting how everyone talks about upgrading their grinder and machine so that what is in the cup, improves.
    Bosco I am not sure your read the OPs reason for changing correctly, it seems to be more about the ability to change coffee frequently and easily.

    Originally posted by BanjoPaterson View Post
    Why The Rocky Isn't Working: You can measure single doses in a Rocky, provided you slap it on the side frequently, but it's not made for that (either the single dose or abuse). I'm now trying differing coffees and I'd like a grinder where I can chop-and-change beans.


    Sometimes when you have a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

    Comment


    • Bosco_Lever
      Bosco_Lever commented
      Editing a comment
      Sometimes when you have a hammer, you strip down to your underwear and hammer away.
      Last edited by Bosco_Lever; 18 November 2022, 08:30 PM.

    • 338
      338 commented
      Editing a comment
      Any chance you could post a video

    • Bosco_Lever
      Bosco_Lever commented
      Editing a comment
      Just google Paul Pelosi and Hammer Time

  • #9
    Hi Banjo, not sure if you’ve seen ‘The Wired Gourmet’ review and tear down of the Niche on YouTube? Goes into great detail and worth a watch if you have concerns about the plastic parts or build quality of the Niche. Good luck with your search.

    Comment


    • BanjoPaterson
      BanjoPaterson commented
      Editing a comment
      That was the video I watched and the gears are shown at timestamp 10:00. He says that he thinks they're well built and someone else mentions that he thinks the gears are delrin plastic, which I've no concerns about (I replaced the Fischer-Price reduction gears in my M3's throttle actuator with delrin ones). It's difficult to tell and, to be fair, I've not seen into any other gearings except (on this site) the Lagom Mini which changed a brass gear to steel to prevent the threading -- so sometimes metal may not be all it's cracked up to be.
      Last edited by BanjoPaterson; 19 November 2022, 08:33 AM. Reason: Edited because I can't spell the first time

  • #10
    First - thanks to everyone who chipped in. You all gave me great food for thought. The crux is that I'm exceptionally partial to the Lagom P64 for all the reasons I originally mentioned, but I just can't justify (at this stage) buying a grinder worth that much. The answer, I think, is in the reason I want to change; which is first and foremost work flow. I want to be able to individually dose and swap beans.

    I think if I had something like a Decent DE1 - or Slayer - or Linear Mini ... an espresso machine at the real pointy end of the diminishing returns, then it'd make sense to have a complementary grinder. But I'm a 2 to 3 a day espresso mug with a Silvia. I suspect my best bet is the Niche Zero. I do have concerns about plastic-on-plastic gearing coming from expensive repairs elsewhere, but in the context of grinding for a coffee I think the Niche will last at least as I long as I'm functional; and probably will be handed to my children when I'm pushing up coffee bushes.

    So I will be putting in an order to Niche next week as the least-cost solution to my actual problem, which is work flow.

    Again, thanks to everyone for letting me go through a thought process that has been quite muddled of late, but which now seems a lot clearer. I was correct. The Coffee Snobs Brains' Trust is a potent force. Cheers.
    Last edited by BanjoPaterson; 19 November 2022, 09:11 AM.

    Comment


    • #11
      I’m sure you won’t be disappointed with the Niche. I’ve recently upgraded from a Rocky as well and have ‘zero’ regrets.
      Last edited by steiny555; 19 November 2022, 11:12 AM.

      Comment


      • #12
        Originally posted by BanjoPaterson View Post
        First - thanks to everyone who chipped in. You all gave me great food for thought. The crux is that I'm exceptionally partial to the Lagom P64 for all the reasons I originally mentioned, but I just can't justify (at this stage) buying a grinder worth that much. The answer, I think, is in the reason I want to change; which is first and foremost work flow. I want to be able to individually dose and swap beans.

        I think if I had something like a Decent DE1 - or Slayer - or Linear Mini ... an espresso machine at the real pointy end of the diminishing returns, then it'd make sense to have a complementary grinder. But I'm a 2 to 3 a day espresso mug with a Silvia. I suspect my best bet is the Niche Zero. I do have concerns about plastic-on-plastic gearing coming from expensive repairs elsewhere, but in the context of grinding for a coffee I think the Niche will last at least as I long as I'm functional; and probably will be handed to my children when I'm pushing up coffee bushes.

        So I will be putting in an order to Niche next week as the least-cost solution to my actual problem, which is work flow.

        Again, thanks to everyone for letting me go through a thought process that has been quite muddled of late, but which now seems a lot clearer. I was correct. The Coffee Snobs Brains' Trust is a potent force. Cheers.
        Any updates? Happy with your choice of the Niche?

        Comment


        • BanjoPaterson
          BanjoPaterson commented
          Editing a comment
          Well - had the Niche and my Rocky together for a week (until I gifted Rocky to middle daughter) and formed various thoughts about the NZ. In no particular order:

          * Lovely work flow once everything's sorted.
          * Showed flaws in my technique more so than the rocky
          * Cleaned it - must've been up to 0.5 gm in old coffee there; but way, way easier to clean and zero than the Rocky... no comparison, really
          * Zero ring moved around a lot because of my fat fingers. Found I was constantly re-zeroing until I discovered the trick of, once zeroed, using a bit of tape on zero ring and dial adjustment ring to keep them in synch
          * It has initially hard to dial in as going to 15 or 20 was too coarse. Lost quite a bit of coffee going higher because I though I was grinding too fine (lots of spurts from naked portafilter). Then went to 10 (apparently espresso default) and much better result - finally, with my dark roast, discovered 7 was the setting. Dialling in a roast still makes me break out in a slight sweat.
          * Lots of body on my dark roast, but not sure if I could tell the difference between the NZ and Rocky on dark roast
          * On a lighter roast, far more clarity than the rocky

          My normal workflow is to place the portafilter upside down on the dosing cup and swing them around. This has worked OK with my no-name dosing cup and rocky. However, with the NZ dosing cup:

          * LOTS of static on the Niche dosing cup. A spritz of water is your friend.
          * Niche dosing cup, unlike my no-name rocky one, sometimes retain grinds. Have to pound the bottom in this instance.
          * If you don't wiggle and jiggle the cup and portafilter, you may find a little mountain of coffee in one quadrant of the portafilter when lifting the dosing cup. it is akin to a martial art to then put a dosing funnel on and WDT.

          In summary: a better grinder than my rocky, particularly in terms of cleaning and work flow, but not sure if it's twice as good at twice the price. Put into perspective the law of diminishing returns with respect to grinders. Also, made me reconsider if I want to go to a Lagom P64 (in the future). I began to ask questions like 'what do I REALLY want from a grinder?' and the realisation that, no matter how much you pay for a grinder, no magic genie is going to appear and make you brilliant coffee.

          No matter how much you polish it. :-)
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