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  • Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

    I upgraded from a Botticelli to a Giotto several weeks back and although the coffee has improved, its still a very hit-and-miss process. Two good, two average and one crap in every 5 coffees.

    Some dividend cheques are burning a hole in my pocket and upgrading my Rocky grinder to a Mazzer/Macap etc is now on the cards. I want to be able to make not just good, but excellent coffee, and to repeat this with minimal effort. And I also want less mess.

    Im finding the puck is messy - a lot of creep up the sides of the portafilter, which never happened with the Botticelli. The puck is also often angled, even when tamped flat. So I end up with coffee grinds surrounding the group head - a PITA to clean with the Giottos smallish dript tray.

    So if I want better coffee thats easier to male, is a grinder upgrade the way to go, or are my skills too inadequate?

  • #2
    Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

    Hi there
    Cant comment on the Rocky grinder but i have a Macap M5 with doser working with my Giotto and it all works well.
    A question though.
    Are you using the single or the double basket?
    I found using the single basket and spout hard yakka and couldnt get a good shot so i dumped it in the draw and now only use the double spout and basket and the results are always consistent and i can see each time where my skills are lacking and if my technique goes off.

    Mal

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    • #3
      Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

      Definitely get the training, at a reputable place of course. The Rocky is a good little grinder and if the puck is angled (?), like you say, it sounds more like a problem with your process rather then anything else.

      If you give us some shots of the puck we may be able to help.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

        What distribution techniques have you tried since receiving the Giotto? I found with my upgrade to a VBM Super I completely changed my distribution technique.

        I also use the double basket always.

        Was the Pullman tamper a direct match for your Giotto basket?

        Do you have access to a bottomless portafilter to analyse your shots?

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        • #5
          Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

          Originally posted by Intellidepth link=1221560481/0#3 date=1221566281
          What distribution techniques have you tried since receiving the Giotto? I found with my upgrade to a VBM Super I completely changed my distribution technique.
          Just bought a nice Coffees Been tamper mat, and bang the PF on the mat twice during the dosing.

          Originally posted by Intellidepth link=1221560481/0#3 date=1221566281
          I also use the double basket always.
          Ditto.

          Originally posted by Intellidepth link=1221560481/0#3 date=1221566281
          Was the Pullman tamper a direct match for your Giotto basket?
          No. Base of tamper > 3mm smaller than basket. Already been in touch with Greg via his website re a new base or whole tamper. Anyone recommend convex vs flat for Giotto?

          Originally posted by Intellidepth link=1221560481/0#3 date=1221566281
          Do you have access to a bottomless portafilter to analyse your shots?
          No - I tend to analyze how the coffee pours out of both sides of the double PF to assess. Mine is 50:50 evenne-sided.

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          • #6
            Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

            You may need something like this to keep you on the straight and narrow
            So to speak for tamp consistancy



            But if you want a machine that works consistantly well and is clean you cant go past the Macap M4D

            KK

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            • #7
              Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

              Hi David,

              I have an M4D on the bench with Giotto at present. Might be worth coming in a pulling some shots?

              regards

              Chris

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              • #8
                Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

                Would love to Chris but living in Adelaide makes that a bit difficult

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                • #9
                  Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

                  Originally posted by DavidR link=1221560481/0#7 date=1221599150
                  Would love to Chris but living in Adelaide makes that a bit difficult
                  oh yeah :-[

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

                    hi david

                    Im finding the puck is messy - a lot of creep up the sides of the portafilter, which never happened with the Botticelli. The puck is also often angled, even when tamped flat. So I end up with coffee grinds surrounding the group head - a PITA to clean with the Giottos smallish dript tray
                    upgrading your grinder will not fix the problem,
                    training in the right tecnique and practise will

                    after you have it workerd out, then you could try a different grinder and see if it is worth the extra bucks

                    the rocky is a good grinder,
                    some say the mazzer grinds better,
                    others cant see the difference

                    graham

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                    • #11
                      Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

                      Hi David R,

                      I found the NSEW (North, South, East, West) technique of distributing the coffee grounds in the PF prior to tamping really great as you can tell the differences in density in the puck under your finger. It sounds like the grounds from the Rocky may be angling to a particular area on your PF and providing a more dense fill in that zone.

                      Overfill the PF to a mound, and gradually move your first finger across the top of the PF from N-S, S-N, E-W, W-E, filling in any less dense areas as you go and compressing ever so *slightly*, pushing spare grounds over the edge. I curve my finger slightly so it creates a slight concave dip in the puck. I weigh the PF to make sure the the grammage is precise, then tamp. (No banging the PF.) I generally work with 17g doubles.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

                        Great tips guys.

                        If were to rule out grind consistency (as the Rocky does an ok job with it..), were remained with the other variables involved with espresso, controlled by the operator: dosing, distribution and tamping.

                        Non is configured on its own, but in relations to the other 2. The steady tamping pressure achieved by a tamping stand suggested by KK and the great technique of NESW suggested by Indellidepth are extremely helpful, if understood within a concept.  We may want to look at slightly bigger picture to understand how these parameters are modified against one another, a concept worked out during our training with our students.

                        Messy and angled puk are a result of probably a combination of: uneven and inconsistent tamping pressure, incorrect distribution with underdosing. To get to the right, consistent dose (in relation always to your grind settings), the right, consistent distribution, and the right consistent tamping pressure, you would need to tackle each individually then experiment on all possible combination of the 3:

                        1. For consistency of dose - mound and NESW, or alternatively use dosing tools thatll allow you swiping off the same amount of coffee every shot

                        2. Distribution: eliminate clumping scenario, as theyre a main obstacle towards good distribution. Try also giggling your handle while grind is generated, to achieve better distribution and to enhance water pressure and slow the pour (that is if your grind is not too fine). Thats one of the reasons why some people will choose a doser grinder, that assist them in going fine on their grind and still achieve an even distribution without having to battle clumping, which the Mini Mazzer / Macpa would do for you..) You can choose also to level your puk half way through with your tamper, or level and tamp (remember, thatll slow the pour, you dont want to double tamp if your coffee is fine, youll burn it).

                        3. For consistency of tamp: make sure your tamper cover the entire puk (thats abc, suggest to fix your tamper issue before anything else!), try use a tamping stand for the angle and / or pre calibrated tamper, that introduces the same amount of pressure each time you tamp.

                        Whatever combination, or only 1 parameter modified eventually, it will need to be a routine easy to repeat and that youre comfortable with (hence why tamping very hard is never a good idea, nor the grind-level-tamp-grind-distribute-level-tamp routine, that would take forever... ), otherwise, youd never achieve consistency, therefore excellence.

                        Hope it helps. Dosing Tools, Tamping Stand, Calibrated Tampers and many other aids to your consistency, are available on: http://www.dibartoli.com.au/products.asp?cid=27

                        Let me know if I can help more, Ofra

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                        • #13
                          Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

                          Hi all,

                          Thanks to all of you for your advice. One final point - my Pullman tamper is about 2mm too small for the new basket, should I look at a new custom-sized one? Funny thing is, it seemed easier to get a clean puck out of my Botticelli, whose basket fit the tamper perfectly.

                          Cheers,
                          Dave

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

                            definitely get a better fitting tamper...shame to have all that great equipment and struggle at the business end due to one of the "cheaper" components. itll make life a lot easier.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Upgrade my grinder or my skills?

                              My previous tamper was only 1mm different, and I had a long routine of multiple tamps to get the puck evenly tamped and grounds down from the side without knocking.

                              The perfectly matched Pullman works beautifully in 1 tamp and polish. It cut down the time, and improved the shots by eliminating edge channelling. Worth it? Yes. Every shot.

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