Help! - earth leak while roasting

[Thundergod]

Last week while roasting something tripped the earth leakage detector of the house.
Being summer I now usually roast at night so tripping the power is a right PITA.

My son brought home from work a portable unit.
Its like a little square power board with a built in earth leakage detector.

Pressing the test button indicates it should be in working order.

I tried plugging in all my different roasting items:
Pedestal Fan
Cooling bucket
Corretto
Heat Gun

I ran them all for a short time but none of them tripped the unit.
That was confusing enough but then I decided to roast again tonight, outside the garage, with everything powered through the borrowed unit.

I figured if something tripped, it should catch it on the spot rather than trip at the house taking everything else with it.

Well no such luck!
Half way through my roast something tripped and the whole house went out.
When the house was reset the portable unit showed it hadnt tripped.

Logic tells me that something in the house must have caused the trip but my gut tells me otherwise.

Opinions?

[A_M]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

Last week while roasting something tripped the earth leakage detector of the house.
Being summer I now usually roast at night so tripping the power is a right PITA.

My son brought home from work a portable unit.
Its like a little square power board with a built in earth leakage detector.

Pressing the test button indicates it should be in working order.

I tried plugging in all my different roasting items:
Pedestal Fan
Cooling bucket
Corretto
Heat Gun

I ran them all for a short time but none of them tripped the unit.
That was confusing enough but then I decided to roast again tonight, outside the garage, with everything powered through the borrowed unit.

I figured if something tripped, it should catch it on the spot rather than trip at the house taking everything else with it.

Well no such luck!
Half way through my roast something tripped and the whole house went out.
When the house was reset the portable unit showed it hadnt tripped.

Logic tells me that something in the house must have caused the trip but my gut tells me otherwise.

Opinions?

Something else is drawing power and leaking as well...

ELCB can work by using a number of different methods ... However at the end of teh day it will accumulate the leakage on the cct it is managing and when the magic value is reached POOF.

Thus...

What else might be running  and OR contributing to leakage...

1: Heating elements are always the leakiest...  HW, Oven, Dryer, jug Heaters, Toaster, Micro Wave and even Stereo systems ...

2: Then you have the other ones such as Fridge, TV , Plasma... etc

If you can isolate and or shut down other ccts (remember to turn on when finished) you may be able to then determine on WHICH cct the item is...  Or it just could be allowable leakage but in TOTAL: it is too much..

Remember the item you looking at is in series, thus will only detect the leakage those items are having... They could be just under teh allowable limit... Thus all is OK.  

However, that is also what is being detected at the main switch board... Thus any additional leakage (may be OK) but will add to the load and POOF...

At teh end of the day you may need to shotgun and or have each device separately monitored and then replace it...  Or do not have all on at the same time...    

No way I can have the Jug, toaster and cloths dryer...  Instant cct cut out...


That is what living life in the future is all about.. Evedance based decisions and not assumptions or gut feelings ;D

[Thundergod]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

Thanks AM.
However my gut feel has been remarkably right many a time while flying in the face of contradictory evidence.

Having said that, your answer was what I was looking for even though I didnt fully understand it.

I did turn off the dryer as well when my logic told me something in the house might be the culprit.

Back to my exact scenario though.
If the four items didnt trip the portable unit, did they or did they not contribute to any leakage?

Theres one ELCB covering the whole house and now a portable unit connected to a cct in the garage.
The garage has its own cct board which runs off one cct on the main board.

I still dont grasp why the house tripped and the portable didnt as I suspect one of my roasting kit items is the culprit.

Shouldnt the portable trip first if Im right?
My son is sure the unit works and has never seen one not trip before the main one.

[A_M]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

While the Garage is on one cct the whole house including the garage is still only covered by one CCT..

That way it does not matter where you are.. If you get hung up the ELCB should save you... (Not Always).

Thus it trips when a threshold is exceeded... Lets say 10ma.

Now if all the crap in you garage is drawing only 8ma then the House and your Garage ELCB is OK...

Something else on another cct draws 3ma... Poof the House ELCB goes Poof... As it has exceeded the limit..

Your Garage ELCB does not....

In fact your items in the Garage, when working 100%, may leak only 5ma and when the house adds the other 3mal all is still OK....

Your trick is to find that item, that is drawing more than allowed... It could be one of the items you are using or something else....

Have I expressed my self better this time ?

Still hanging out waiting for my NEW, Coffee Machine, Grinder and Roaster

[Thundergod]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

It wasnt you, it was me.

I understand.

Thanks again.

[Dimal]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

Have also found in some older (pre-ELCB/RCD protection hardware) to have Neon indicator lamps that are connected between a Hot Active connection and a convenient ground. This allows the Neon indicator to work fine but the very small current that flows through the Neon can sometimes be sufficient to trip or contribute to an overall leakage current that trips the Main ELCB Safety Switch. Might not be applicable to your collection of hardware TG but it has caught me out before.... :

Mal.

[A_M]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

t wasnt you, it was me.

I understand.

Thanks again.

On reading my post ... my comments

Have I expressed my self better this time ?

May have sounded a bit harsh.....

As I indicated in a post earlier in another topic... Dyslexia and OLD man status, means that what I want to say or express; is not always translated to what ends up on the screen...

My first response was full of grammar and other errors, such that I had probs reading and understanding it myself

[argon]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

Are you sure the culprit is earth leakage and not plain overloading the circuit? ELCBs do 2 jobs - they protect against earth leakage BUT they also protect against circuit overload just like a fuse - Perhaps when you roast, the additional current drawn is enough to cause an overload?

[Thundergod]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

Are you sure the culprit is earth leakage and not plain overloading the circuit? ELCBs do 2 jobs - they protect against earth leakage BUT they also protect against circuit overload just like a fuse - Perhaps when you roast, the additional current drawn is enough to cause an overload?

Its not current overload as there are separate circuit breakers for current and in my case the garage cicuit is split into its own board so that it would break at the garage and neber break at the main board.
The main board breaker for the garage acts in effect as an isolation switch.

Besides, this setup of equipment has been in use for a while with the exception of the new cooler.
The HG is new too but its the same model as Ive used previously.
Therefore total power is no more than previously and not all 4 items are on at the same time.

[Dimal]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

Besides, this setup of equipment has been in use for a while with the exception of the new cooler.
The HG is new too but its the same model as Ive used previously.

Hi again TG,

If this is so, might be worth dropping by a local appliance repairer and ask them to "Megger Test" the Cooler motor for you..... Might have something dodgy going on, which could be as simple as loads of carbon dust from the brushes allowing tracking to occur across insulation; brush-holder posts and what have you....

Mal.

[A_M]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

Besides, this setup of equipment has been in use for a while with the exception of the new cooler.
The HG is new too but its the same model as Ive used previously.

Hi again TG,

If this is so, might be worth dropping by a local appliance repairer and ask them to "Megger Test" the Cooler motor for you..... Might have something dodgy going on, which could be as simple as loads of carbon dust from the brushes allowing tracking to occur across insulation; brush-holder posts and what have you....

Mal.

I agree... It could be the Cooler or the HG that is either drawing more than previously but not enough to trip the local cct But the additional leakage is enough toss the main ELCB.

Try one and then the other....

Heating elements usually get better as they heat up and dry out...

Motors may work OK to start with and then cause problems... You usually have to check each item one at a time... Remembering to keep a track of the leakage for each one...

If the HG is giving ya problems then I am sure there are others who could take it off ya hands ;D

AM

[jaclarkaus]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

At a guess most likely to be Washing machine, dishwasher or Fridge (according to my sparky who has been right twice - first the washing machine and just now the fridge).

Often (at least in my case) has nothing to do with the thing you just plugged in (or unplugged) unless you can repeat it.

It mainly to do with the humididy I believe.

My fridge is a classic example: RCD randomly tripping every couple of days and refuses to reset straight away. Go round the house unplugging things (remember they dont even have to be turned on) until I can reset the RCD. Trouble is every time, its a different thing that finally lets me start it. Turned out to be the fridge that by the time it had cooled down (or the motor or whatever) I had unplugged 5 random things and away we go again.

[A_M]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

At a guess most likely to be Washing machine, dishwasher or Fridge (according to my sparky who has been right twice - first the washing machine and just now the fridge).

Often (at least in my case) has nothing to do with the thing you just plugged in (or unplugged) unless you can repeat it.

It mainly to do with the humididy I believe.

My fridge is a classic example: RCD randomly tripping every couple of days and refuses to reset straight away. Go round the house unplugging things (remember they dont even have to be turned on) until I can reset the RCD. Trouble is every time, its a different thing that finally lets me start it. Turned out to be the fridge that by the time it had cooled down (or the motor or whatever) I had unplugged 5 random things and away we go again.

Naaa.... I think it is his coffee machine and roaster...

Needs to upgrade and pass on the existing systems, to some one with a heavy duty cct or an electrical qualification ;D

PM sent... Opps not in the PIF or Hardware for sale just yet 8-)

[Thundergod]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

Some of that was very amusing................


Ive been out all day so have only just found time to pen some more thoughts.

@ jaclarkaus
I was thinking along those lines.
I already suspected the dryer.
Having interrogated the wife about what she remembers (being in the house at the time), she said that the washing machine and dishwasher were not on and she did not touch any appliances.

So, when it tripped, anything that was on was already on and no electrical appliances were handled.

In my case, outside, I cant say for sure if I might have touched the gun for a height adjustment, but the body is all plastic so it shouldnt be it for that reason.

@ AngerManagement
I recently bought two new Aldi HGs because they are cheap and my gun stand was designed with the Aldi gun in mind.

I could either use the Ryobi or the 2nd Aldi gun if need be.
-----------
So back to the wifes info.....if nothing was turned on or touched in the house, why would the ELCB decide to trip (unless its the fridge)?

[A_M]

Re: Help! - earth leak while roasting

Some of that was very amusing................


Ive been out all day so have only just found time to pen some more thoughts.

@ jaclarkaus
I was thinking along those lines.
I already suspected the dryer.
Having interrogated the wife about what she remembers (being in the house at the time), she said that the washing machine and dishwasher were not on and she did not touch any appliances.

So, when it tripped, anything that was on was already on and no electrical appliances were handled.

In my case, outside, I cant say for sure if I might have touched the gun for a height adjustment, but the body is all plastic so it shouldnt be it for that reason.

@ AngerManagement
I recently bought two new Aldi HGs because they are cheap and my gun stand was designed with the Aldi gun in mind.

I could either use the Ryobi or the 2nd Aldi gun if need be.
-----------
So back to the wifes info.....if nothing was turned on or touched in the house, why would the ELCB decide to trip (unless its the fridge)?

So what was amusing    we were all serious.. Keep checking the PIF and For sale sections.... just to see..

1: Nothing turned On... OPPS big pokies there..   So no item was plugged in and the GPO switched ON...  Many items draw standby power and even when not on; can leak ... Those pesky electrons...  :P

2: Plastic or not, they should be double insulated... However that is only one level of risk management  

3: I can only assume that one or more of your NEW items is leaking more than usual... but might be acceptable ...  That, in conjunction with the usual leakage or a slight increase - Fridge for eg...  Then you have a problem..  

4: I would be checking item by item... Sorry, but elimination is the only way... PIF and Hardware section is always an option...  ;D

Some one might have a megga that you could use ?  loan....

A or N to earth should be at least 1M ohm...  Switch open or closed...  Do NOT do a megga A to N - you will BLOW components up big time...

We still have teh odd unit blow the Over voltage front end of some cheep devices... So be careful...

Further more in the Medical arena, we like to see at least 10meg ohm it not 20meg ohm... But to be sure, the AS3551 units get checked for leakage down into the micro amps... Patient connected and different classes etc.

Heating elements can be OK at 100k ohm to earth but should rise as they get hotter...  Super high temp elements can also be passed at 10K ohm... In the right environment..   just for a laugh... Check the elements on an electric stove... When DRY and COLD... Then again when HOT. And for a laugh, spill water on them  when cold and let sit for a little while ( Wife is slack at cleaning) and then check  :

So in a nut shell; those pesky electrons that run from Negative to Positive  are not always willing to play teh game...  That why there are Electricians, Electrical fitters, Electronics tecs and then there is the rest of YOU  ;D