Behmor / Gene / Hottop

[gregpullman]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

Hi Greg,

Hows the hearing aid going?  ;D

It melted! ;D

I have no doubt the new Hottops are very good roasters. I have never questioned that. I think the build quality is great and tweakability now seems to be good as well.

As for me, my preference is for my HG. My gene is my robusta roaster and I use it sometimes to ascertain whether I like a particular bean sample or not..

As mentioned previously, they just dont tick my bang for buck boxes and thats my personal opinion. Different CSers have different opinions, and its all about what suits the individual best....

Ultimately, its great that CSers have so many options, from popper through commercial. There is a solution and price point to suit each CSer and great outcomes are possible with pretty much anything with a modicum of care.

Chris

I fully agree Chris. To my reading at least, your earlier post painted the picture that the Hottop is overpriced and underperforming - which is fine if thats what you thought about the old D model, but this is a 2010 thread and the only Hottops a buyer would encounter today are entirely different. As such I feel an opinion formed from a product that was superseded in 2007 cant in fairness be related to current products and how they compare with each other.

The purpose of threads such as these should be to arm prospective buyers with accurate and impartial information with which they can make an informed decision and choose a product that best suits their particular needs.

Greg

[gregpullman]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

Hey All

Im at the very early stages of attempting to convince myself that I should consider home roasting. I only have about 10 cups a week, so not huge volumes of consumption. I mainly want to roast in order to:
1. get a few kilos of beans I really like and roast as needed
2. save a bit of money in the long run
3. enjoy coffee at its best

My questions are:
1. just how good would these 3 compare to coffee roasted by a good professional roaster (person behind the wheel taken out of the equation)
2. given my not very frequent roasting, what are my realistic chances of getting equal (or at least *really* close to) quality
3. How much and what kind of difference in the cup can be expected between the 3 roasters mentioned?

Thanks a lot
Andrew

Hopefully the previous posts have helped explain how the three devices are different. As to your specific questions:

1. To one degree or another, all three would be capable of producing something similar to what a commercial roaster could produce. The difference is that a commercial roaster let the operator make whatever change they want to get whatever result they want, and provides the right data so they can make that decision. From the pros and cons I listed, you can see the Behmor is not programmable and has no temperature readout at all, the Gene is programmable but has only an air temperature readout, while the Hottop can be categorised, as KK put it, "as a miniature commercial roaster" (particularly so if fitted with a bean mass probe). Its not exactly that, but it has the same fundamental capabilites and offers similar control to a commercial roaster. The other two may be able to get something similar to what a pro gets, but if its not right its going to be a bit more difficult (Gene) or next to impossible (Behmor) to change your program to suit.

2) 10 cups a week - if theyre double shots thats about 20g per cup, i.e. 200g per week. The Gene and the Hottop, when loaded with 250g of green, will yield about 215g of roasted. The Behmor can do the same but obviously can go higher if required. So long as you take careful notes of what you do in each roast (e.g. when you change settings), note how the coffee tastes afterwards and do your next roast with controlled changes to see how that affects the taste, youll be able to get quite good results over time. You might like to consider a roasting course to get a head-start. If youre really keen and research what qualities a bean has and learn how you can bring those out in the roasting process, theres no reason you couldnt get comparable results to a commercial roaster, provided you purchase with your eyes open and understand the scope of what the machine will let you do, i.e. dont expect a Behmor to give you the flexibility of a Hottop.

3) From my testing of the Gene and the Hottop, both are capable of similar tasting roasts as both can be programmed to do a fast roast or a slow roast, with fast or slow changes in temperature. There were subtle differences in the cup between the two and which we preferred depended on the bean but they were subtle. With the Behmor, as I mentioned in the cons of the Behmor, youll get one type of flavour out of a 200g roast (generally bright, as this will be a fast roast) and another type of flavour out of a slow roast (generally smoother and more full-bodied, as this will be a slower roast). But provided you stuck to the same batch size you should get similar results from roast to roast given the same bean - you just wont be able to change that result very much.

Greg

[russellm]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

Noise: I did half a dozen roasts with my Gene when I first bought it and gave up, I could hardly hear a thing apart from whirr whine clatter. Ones ear does apparently get more used to the bean cracks with time - I find it a bit easier now than I did, but theyre still nowhere near as clear as on the Hottop. I tried putting my ear near the chaff collector but got both a sore back and a burnt ear!

I absolutely disagree that it is difficult to hear the cracks in the Gene. I claim no great expertise other than the fact that I have done at least two roasts each week for the best part of two and a half years. I guess thats more than 250 roasts. I dont spend nearly as much time roasting as some of the better known names on this site. In fact compared with them, I still regard myself as a beginner. But I have no difficulty hearing the cracks. I never have had any difficulty hearing the cracks and I have never burnt my ears! I dont find I even need to get particularly close to the roaster.

I have never used a Hottop or a Behmor. So Im not arguing that one is better than the other, but I have found my Gene to be exceptionally user friendly. Its perfect for someone like me who just wants a simple, economical pathway to freshly roasted beans.

It would be a pity if folk avoided the Gene on the grounds that you cant hear the cracks. Previously I roasted with an Imex CR-100. Now that was noisy!

Best wishes, Russell.

[Dennis]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

Noise: I did half a dozen roasts with my Gene when I first bought it and gave up, I could hardly hear a thing apart from whirr whine clatter. Ones ear does apparently get more used to the bean cracks with time

I stand away from the Gene and find it much easier to hear the cracks.

Mine whirs but doesnt whine or clatter.

Its straightforward fitting a temperature probe to where the hot air comes out of the roaster (AFAIK thats what Den did but I stand to be corrected) but that is NOT a bean mass probe.

Correct!

Then again, while its nice to have a probe directly in the bean mass one can compensate. It just makes it difficult if youre trying to compare notes with other people.

impartial information

Perhaps then, we should recuse ourselves from discussion in this thread.

To one degree or another, all three would be capable of producing something that a commercial roaster could produce.

Im not sure if thats spoken like a politician or a diplomat. ;D

[TC]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

To one degree or another, all three would be capable of producing something similar to what a commercial roaster could produce

Sorry Greg, but I have to call you on that statement.

While a domestic roaster can produce very good results, no domestic roaster can compete with a good commercial roaster- unless a buffoon is using the commercial roaster and throwing green beans in one end and then waiting until theyre brown.

Airflow and fine control of flame are critical and you dont get that with the Gene or Hottop or anything else electric. This is before we discuss clarity, chaff control, how even the roast is and a myriad of other factors. If this wasnt the case, Id be using 10 Genes or Hottops  :-?

Bottom line is that the limitations of the hottop better suit your personal preferences and roasting style. Likewise, the limitations of the Gene better suit my style, and if required, $50 gives the home user additional cooling.

As for bucks, I choose to keep the balance in my pocket.

Lastly to subby... Buy the roaster which your budget will allow. Any of them will be better than supermarket swill and quite possibly some of the big guys as well...

Chris

[A_M]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

Greg Pullman wrote on Today at 16:21:
To one degree or another, all three would be capable of producing something similar to what a commercial roaster could produce

Greg.. I agree...

From what I have had over the last few years around Brisbane and interstate.. Give me the option of a small batch / home roast almost any day of the week.


Now if ya need QUANTY then commercial... But review the terminology and teh context first. I know people who as part of their business use the smaller units to make special blends for some special clients.. Thus they could all be considered commercial :P


As for consistency... Consistently bad is still bad.


For me... I enjoy my KKTO and what it produces... But have a soft-spot for the Hottop N - My first roaster.

[SubContractor]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

Thanks all for a pretty good explanation there. It certainly gives me a solid understanding of whats on offer. Ill have a bit more of a think before making my mind up (dont want post-op drugs making the wrong decision for me!)

Regards
Andrew

P.S. - Greg - loving the Barista tamper - its really making a difference in the cup!

[beanflying]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

As most of us only have one of your choices a comparison will tend to be biased in most cases

I Should amend that to include those that have pecuniary and commercial access to only one or the other too maybe.

Gregs initial post is still the fairest comparison with little if any bias shown and a lot of his points are based on a comparison test he did even before selling roasters of any brand.

The Cafe Gene is still the noisiest of the three asked about by the OP and no amount of searching for other flaws in posts will make it different.

And yes I am a happy Hottop owner and user which I secured from a fellow CS for less than the cost of the Gene 8-)

[gregpullman]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

Its straightforward fitting a temperature probe to where the hot air comes out of the roaster (AFAIK thats what Den did but I stand to be corrected) but that is NOT a bean mass probe.

Correct!

Then again, while its nice to have a probe directly in the bean mass one can compensate. It just makes it difficult if youre trying to compare notes with other people.

True. Though wouldnt a probe in the air exit be the same as what the Gene displays? Or perhaps thats taken from somewhere different. The challenge with the Gene is working out about how much cooler the beans are than the air temp at different stages of the roast, which will vary with batch size. Until someone works out a way to fit a bean mass probe (which is 3 years waiting and counting...) thats always going to be an unknown.

To one degree or another, all three would be capable of producing something that a commercial roaster could produce.

Im not sure if thats spoken like a politician or a diplomat. ;D

To one degree or another, all three would be capable of producing something similar to what a commercial roaster could produce

Sorry Greg, but I have to call you on that statement.

While a domestic roaster can produce very good results, no domestic roaster can compete with a good commercial roaster- unless a buffoon is using the commercial roaster and throwing green beans in one end and then waiting until theyre brown.

Airflow and fine control of flame are critical and you dont get that with the Gene or Hottop or anything else electric. This is before we discuss clarity, chaff control, how even the roast is and a myriad of other factors. If this wasnt the case, Id be using 10 Genes or Hottops :-?

I guess my statement is a bit open isnt it? ;D The intent of my comment was that to my palate it is possible to roast something which doesnt taste vastly different. But Im sure if you were going to cup the results or are a dedicated espresso drinker, depending on the device in question, you would be able to pick the difference.

With specific reference to the Hottop (and I stay close to the Hottops in these discussions because thats where the majority of my experience lies), no theres no flame control but there are 10 levels of heater control and four levels of airflow control. Is that sufficient for it to produce results close to a commercial roaster? With apologies to Al Gore, consider the following Inconvenient Truth - Toby Smith of Tobys Estate, and Phillip Di Bella of Di Bella Coffee have minimal commercial interest in roasters. Their concern lies with getting the best roasted coffee they can and using products that best help them do this. By way of example, when I visited Di Bella earlier this year they had been talking about getting a 240kg roaster but Phil didnt feel its output was quite as good as what their smaller (120kg?) unit could produce so they didnt get it. As a result of this sort of passion both guys have won awards for their roasted coffee. And its unlikely either are short of a bob or two to buy products that do the best job possible at roasting their coffee.

So what do these guys use for sample roasting? A Hottop B. In preference to any other small-batch roaster, be it a Behmor, Gene Cafe or even dedicated commercial sample roasters they used prior to that which cost 3-4 times the price. Why would they do that if the Hottop didnt mirror as closely as possible what their commercial roasters would produce?

Toby reckons "When you choose 18 tons of coffee based on a 300 gram sample, it’s very important to get an excellent roast! The Hottop consistently delivers a clean, even and flexible roast profile". When Anne Cooper was with Di Bella, she said "The Hottop is a product far superior to many others on the market today. It is very user friendly and delivers a similar roast profile to commercial roasters, making it ideal for batch testing and cupping."

Is the output going to be identical? Perhaps not - but clearly they reckon the Hottop is as close a match as is possible from a small batch roaster. It would be a braver man than I to call these guys buffoons, amateurs or incompetent, or to deride the roasted product they put out. If their expert opinion says a Hottops that good a match to a commercial roaster Im not about to argue with them.

Greg

[A_M]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

Ann used an older hottop and in any number of chats as to roasting and using a HT; Ann always indicated to me that the HT was the key. She could try and then reproduce on the big systems. That HT is still in use :-)

It And my unit also produced some of the best home / small roasts I have ever done / tried.

Size / complicated does not always mean better and a good opperator can get great results by knowing their craft, not just running to a script.

[WSullivan]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

So what do these guys use for sample roasting? A Hottop B

Last time i was in their brissie store, they had just taken delivery of a 1 or 2 kg electric? roaster to replace the HT as their sample roaster, not sure if it is in use yet, that was about 2 months ago, i do know that the HT played a big part (sampling) in the development of their blend for their recent golden bean award 8-)

[htb]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

Gene Cafe
...

Bad points:
...
* Very smoky roast process - no smoke suppression / filtering
...

If smoke is a problem you can get the large chaff collector and run a duct out the window that is what I do and have never noticed the smoke.

[gregpullman]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

Quite right and there are workarounds to some of the other negative points about each machine too. I was pointing out the pros and cons as they come out of the box, and in the case of the Gene it is certainly the smokiest of the three for the reason you quoted.

[kaloolabmeb]

Re: Behmor / Gene / Hottop

I own a Hottop B. I read the reviews of the Gene Cafe at the time, and have since read the Behmor reviews. My basic view is that "you may as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb". If you are going to lash out, get a Hottop B, and make sure you get the bean mass probe fitted - you can get this done professionally by Greg Pullmans coffee (which you need to do to retain your warranty). I am glad I got it fitted, and would have really regretted it if I had not.

Having said that, I would suggest starting with a popcorn popper. They produce good results. In fact, when my Hottop had to be sent back for a broken thermo-something, I went back to using the popper while it was being repaired and found it produced a better taste for the CS PNG Wahgi AA than I got from the Hottop B. I was unable to reproduce the same flavour with the Hottop before I ran out of the bean. I note that the Hottop produces a consistent style of coffee - its rich, thick and what I will call back-of-palate. The decaf wow from this site is excellent in it. But the front-of-palate flavour - "brightness", or the more acid floral flavours of certain beans tend to disappear with the longer roast times of a drum roaster. Some coffees tasted better in the popper. I dont think a GC or Behmor would be different from the Hottop in this respect - a Corretto might be, as it is of the same type as the popper.

I note that there are many people experimenting with shorter roasting times and smaller batches for the Hottop. I tried it and produced some terrible tasting coffee - you might find a bit more effort will bring those flavours back, and maybe Greg could provide some views on this. Ive given up for the time being, and learnt to enjoy the flavour of the Hottop.

The point Im making is dont despise the idea of a popper, particularly if you have small volumes and dont want to spend a lot. Certainly try it out first. If you want to save money, especially if moneys tight, then it will take a long time to recoup the cost with any of the roasters you mentioned. Its a false economy. $40 bucks on a popper, and youre in business. Roasts are easy, quick and straightforward. Youll still be drinking the best coffee youve ever had.

If you like toys (and I use that term positively, not pejoratively, because I do), and have the cash, then the Hottop is a lot of fun to play with. Is it expensive? How much would you pay for the extras on a car? Would you enjoy them as much? Ive had more use and more fun with it than Ive had from other purchases Ive made. I bought a camera for a similar amount, and hardly use it by comparison. Its spending money for your personal enjoyment rather than to save money on green beans. Forget the calculator.

I prefer the taste of the coffee I have roasted (Hottop or popper) to any of the stuff I have bought from a store. I have more or less given up on buying coffee from cafes.

With the Hottop B, I roast indoors under a range hood. This does mean that the house smells of coffee for the rest of the day, but I quite like this. The filters and the rangehood take care of most of the smoke and smell, so the residue is acceptable (to me at any rate, and the rest of the family have never complained). The popper has to go outside, however.