Afterburners - are they the best option?

[GrindOnDemand]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

Dennis, my quick input for what its worth ...

A link on circumventing roasting emissions, that I noted a while back on a post on "roasting in a residential area"

http://www.roastmagazine.com/backissues/septoct2006/blowingsmoke.html

[Dimal]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

I was going to say that Im surprised that people with no experience try to answer these questions, but I decided not to say it.

I dont believe we have ever met fenners so I am somewhat surprised of your assumption that I and others have no knowledge in this area :-?

Mal.

[Dimal]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

Dennis, my quick input for what its worth ...

A link on circumventing roasting emissions, that I noted a while back on a post on "roasting in a residential area"

http://www.roastmagazine.com/backissues/septoct2006/blowingsmoke.html

Interesting read Tony 8-),

Mal.

[Dennis]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

Thanks Tony - an interesting read indeed.  

Id like to highlight part of the title of my post, "Afterburners - are they the best option?"

Perhaps to clarify, one of the big drawcards for me when selecting a roaster was the very low emissions produced by the roasters burners.  I may not be able to save the planet but certainly would like to do my bit.  In financial terms that choice came at a significant cost, though ultimately, I believe the decision fits with my personal sense of social responsibility and ethics. Im sure the decision wont be bad for business either!

My understanding of afterburners is that they produce their own pollution, the vast amount of gas being burnt as just one such contributing factor.  If Ive studied correctly, the EPA seem to suggest that afterburners are a better option than catalysts or scrubbers. Though I wonder whether part of this recommendation is based on what has become an industry standard.

[JavaB]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

I think "landing you in jail" is a bit rich JavaB. I was well aware of the costs and implications before setting out on this venture. I also hasten to add that I am prepared to outlay the money that is required to do this properly, and think this has already been demonstrated by my choice of roaster.

Dennis,

I wasnt suggesting you wouldnt "do the right thing" or that you werent aware of the costs involved....

My post was more about pointing out the reason why there is a need for the high cost of roasted beans and suggesting (to others) the need to do the right thing - in a rather strong way :

Im almost a rabid conservationist myself (Member of Conservation Volunteers Australia)...

Re afterburners/scrubbers/converters etc

Going back to my Engineering Chemistry days.....

Afterburners incinerate all the noxious chemicals - converting them to inert and harmless materials (if raised to a high enough temperature and held there for sufficient time)... one of the worst was the oil used in power transformers and capacitors (PCB - which produced furan) and could ONLY be destroyed by incineration. This is itself at a huge cost to the environment due to the production of massive amounts of carbon dioxide.

Scrubbers just trap the noxious substances (dont change them).... and this concentrated noxious "soup" has to be disposed of somewhere (down the drain, into the rivers or sea.... into landfill (although these were done - none were a good or sustainable idea).... Scrubbers are good for solid pollutants like ash and soot - but not much good for noxious volatiles.

Catalytic converters sit somewhere between the two.... with less conversion than afterburners but not the volume of concentrated toxins like scrubbers..... and still produce lots of Carbon Dioxide.

Dont know what the answer is.... but I know it must be found.

[fenners]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

I was going to say that Im surprised that people with no experience try to answer these questions, but I decided not to say it.

I dont believe we have ever met fenners so I am somewhat surprised of your assumption that I and others have no knowledge in this area :-?

Mal.

I enjoy and will continue to enjoy having a dig at people every now and then! And I know Ill cop it in return
Its all in fun, but the fact remains that some people post on hearsay and opinion rather than fact and opinion or better still experience, fact and opinion.
Anyway, I dont know how that quote appeared, as i said I decided not to say it. And Mal, dont tell anyone but I was referring in this particular thread to JavaBs post! ;D
Hopefully Ill meet a few of you someday and youll realise Im not that much of a tool!!

[JavaB]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

Anyway, I dont know how that quote appeared, as i said I decided not to say it. And Mal, dont tell anyone but I was referring in this particular thread to JavaBs post! ;D
Hopefully Ill meet a few of you someday and youll realise Im not that much of a tool!!

No worries fenners.....

Ill just take my Engineering degree and my Conservation experience and go and hide ;D

As I said in that post

Possibly some of the more experienced professional roasters can shed some light on that

So I was really suggesting that some members with experience in the area provide the detailed input..... but I was mainly commenting on the costs (and process) involved and how this impacts on the price of roasted beans - which Im sure Im qualified to do

[speleomike]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

Hi all

JavaB is correct in what he states as to the differences between a scrubber and an afterburner....
" Afterburners incinerate all the noxious chemicals ...
Scrubbers just trap the noxious substances ... and this concentrated noxious
soup has to be disposed of somewhere (down the drain, into the rivers or "

Im guessing here but I think the odour and particulates from roasting will not be like transformer oil or stuff that Union Carbide would specialise in i.e. it would not be particularly toxic. The waste water from a scrubber from your small system would not be environmentally harmful to the environment. It could go down the drain.

The EPA will concern itself with emissions and not with any environmental cost of the energy to run the device. The energy footprint of a scrubber is less than an afterburner by a long way.

Also an important thing would be how noisy will be an afterburner compared to a scrubber.

[Dimal]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

Its all in fun....... Hopefully Ill meet a few of you someday and youll realise Im not that much of a tool!!

No worries fenners, understood [smiley=happy.gif]..... and you never know in this ever shrinking world we live in, might bump into each other one day .

All the best,
Mal.

[Dennis]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

Perhaps another solution is an air fliter device? This one is usually attahced to an air-con unit and said to be better than hepa filtration (gotta love the Swiss).

http://www.iqair.com/professional/inductairfilters/

They also supply other cartridge systems for specific gaseous pollutants.

Thoughts?

[coffee_mogul]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

Dennis,
I have run my 3kg an 5kg without afterburner. I have a colleague with a 12kg and no afterburner in a retail environment, and the council didnt require him to install one.
Speak to the relative council and check their requirements before committing any cash. My initial reason to stay below 10kg was to minimise emissions and reduce the need for an afterburner. I doubt the 3kg will raise too many concerns. Ours was installed in jan 05, then replaced with the 12kg. The 12kg is still running with no afterburner and no complaints, and the building backs on to residential properties.

From memory the Diedrich afterburners cost almost as much as the roaster.

In my opinion the afterburner might reduce the smell of the roaster, but triples gas consumption and nasty emissions that go along with it.

[Fresh_Coffee]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

We seem to be going over old ground again./....

If no one complains, the EPA doesnt give a fig even if you are running a 20,000 kg roaster.

They respond to complaints.

The level of complaint depends on your individual situation, your location and your neighbours etc.

You could be in a location where you are situatied under an "inversion layer", so smoke and smell will not dissipate easily and you make your neighbours life hell.

Then the EPA most certainly WILL respond.

The "best" form of antipollution gear for this application is the afterburner, although catalytic thingOmeebobs and scrubbers are in the running except for various reasons that I dont have time to discuss right now.

The word "best" in a coffee business sense doesnt need to mean any more than....it actually does the job required (kill off the smoke and overly sweet acrid smell), in the most cost effective & easy manner (to design & build initially).

Hope this helps.
Regards,
Attilio
aka FC, first / original CS site sponsor.

PS remember we are all looking at a screen and it doesnt tell us that what someone has just written was meant to be taken in jest.  If you are going to write something silly like "I wasnt going to say this but I am....." and then proceed to place what actually looks like a public insult where no one knows to whom it is being directed, it doesnt look good....for you....and gets right up others noses.....like me (and Mal) who have plenty of experience in real life matters technical and are not simply well read on the internet with nil experience (ie those that convincingly plagiarise what they have read).

[Andy]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?


Ironic... I was going to say that Fenners is a tool but I decided not to say it.

[GrindOnDemand]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

... remember we are all looking at a screen and it doesnt tell us that what someone has just written was meant to be taken in jest.  If you are going to write something silly like "I wasnt going to say this but I am....." and then proceed to place what actually looks like a public insult where no one knows to whom it is being directed, it doesnt look good....for you....and gets right up others noses.....like me (and Mal) who have plenty of experience in real life matters technical and are not simply well read on the internet with nil experience (ie those that convincingly plagiarise what they have read).

Nicely & succinctly said Attilio ... 8-)

[Dennis]

Re: Afterburners - are they the best option?

Ironic... I was going to say that Fenners is a tool but I decided not to say it.

ROFL! ;D

Ill call Council. Thanks for everyones help - your experiences and advice are very much appreciated.