expert baristas opinion on home roasting

[Wushoes]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I think the point Luca was trying to make is that it was an introductory course. Nothing more and nothing less....if the snob wanted to learn more, he should have enrolled in to his local specialty coffee training centre.

[Thundergod]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Some good points there Id like to agree with Luca.

The trainer presuming that Rob was new to espresso is a fair assumption.
A good trainer shouldnt do that (I am a qualified trainer).

Trying to learn roasting at the same time as making espresso: I agree its not the best idea. I took forever to venture into roasting. Im sure I even posted I couldnt ever see myself doing it.
But here I am now having moved on from my souped up popper then bowl and to my corretto.

Im still learning about espresso but now what I do know helps me with learning about roasting.

I disagree however with your opinion about the message the trainer was trying to deliver. On the face of it he made a wild generalisation.

What are the chances hes tried a home roasted bean?

[luca]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Hi all, attended the Sunbeam course last Saturday in Brisbane. All was OK until I started asking questions, then it was, Thats covered in the paid course... The disturbing thing was the barista claiming that ANY home-based roasting machine would do no more than brown the beans. He said said there was a chasm (my word, cant remember his!) between what we do at home and any commercial roaster. It was claimed that we could never get the same depth of taste, aroma etc. As one who has had no experience at all with coffee until a few months ago, it sort of rattled me to hear such said with such aplomb! So, what am I doing with my corretto? Why do I get such good results from it? Are we fooling ourselves, playing around with our little setups, but in fact missing the mark of good bean roasting? My friends and family, some avid real coffee! drinkers, all want more of what i give em, so surely it cant be all bad? :-?

Good questions, and its nice to see that youre asking.

I think that the fundamental point that were all missing is that the sunbeam course is an introductory course. The trainer probably presumes that you are new to espresso and I agree 1000000% that home-roasting when you are just starting is probably the worst thing that you can possibly do if your goal is to learn to make good espresso. Im probably boring people to death by repeating, as everyone knows, that good espresso is the product of about a million variables, of which coffee is one. In fact, its probably the biggest one. Youre shooting yourself in the foot if you are trying to learn how to make espresso and learn how to roast at the same time. I dont think that there is a single person on this forum who would tell you that if you start roasting your own you will get it right consistently when you start out. How can you ever tell if the exceptionally good or exceptionally bad cup that you just made was down to your skills as a barista or your skills as a roaster?

To give you an example, my old boss taught an employee who had never drunk coffee in his life how to extract great shots and pour killer latte art in about three weeks. THREE WEEKS! How? It was simple; the guy kept all the variables the same - same same bend, same equipment, same milk, same technique ... everything. After pulling hundreds of shots per day with all of the same variables, those three weeks actually added up to a tonne of experience. The dude was able to pinpoint the mistakes that he was making by writing off all of the variables as the possible source.

It seems to me that the trainer was probably trying to deliver a very important message, but he didnt exactly go about it in a very helpful way.

More to come ...

Luca

[cuppacoffee]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

As usual, well said Mal.

One of the strongest memories I have from my childhood involved watching my parents roast coffee in the backyard. I used to love using the DeVe mill, that was decorated with a windmill, and mounted on a wall in our kitchen.

Roasting coffee is a fantastic, sensual experience - whether at home or in a "not too commercial" setting. With the wonderful selection of beans available here every month, and the generous support that is readily available from members, I would urge anyone who hasnt tried it to give it a go. And every now and then, buy a bag from a commercial roaster too!

[Dimal]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I tend to agree with you Mark....

More important than the roasting method used, in my humble opinion, is the knowledge, passion and experience of the roaster in being able to extract the best a particular bean variety has to offer. Now, what I consider to the the best in this situation may not necessarily agree with someone else but in a commercial scenario where the supply of a consistently high quality product is paramount, day in, day out ad infinitum, machinery that makes the tasks more controllable is likely to be able to meet the sought after criteria within more tightly bound limits of tolerance.....

The coffee buying public are becoming ever more critical, and passionate, in their search for a great cup of coffee and you know what its like; when you find an outlet that provides you with exactly what youre looking for, you keep going back. Where we home-roasters might consider slight variations from one roast to another to be "interesting", in the commercial arena it could very well bespoke the loss of business. A very important consideration in the ever fickle minds of the coffee drinking public where the perception of high quality is everything. One slip-up in a couple of roast batches may cause the loss of a significant number of patrons, perhaps forever and in this very competitive industry, businesses can not afford that kind of outcome.

Best summed up perhaps in the paraphrase of... "When youre on a good thing, stick to it." And when you consider all the work that commercial roasters put into the development of "Roasts" that they are prepared to let loose within the public domain, what we do here at home pales by comparison, no matter how long weve been mucking around down the shed with our home-roasting apparatus. Dennis allowed some small insight in to what is involved with this process in a post above..... 100s of Kilos of coffee through his roaster until hes happy with the outcome, after all, his name is on the product and being the knowledgeable, passionate sort of bloke that he is (building quickly on the experiential aspect ), he would never allow anything to leave his premises that did not measure up to the stringent criteria he has no doubt set for himself.

On my best days, I could probably roast up something that would compete very favourably with some of the product that Andy, Dennis and our other Site Sponsor Roasters can deliver. To try and do this every day of the week though for 100s and maybe 1,000s of Kilos of beans, I honestly dont think I could even come close. Anyway, thats not why I roast coffee at home..... I do it because it is interesting, fun, involves a certain amount of science to keep my geeky side happy, allows me to be creative, is very satisfying and allows me to provide a generally high quality product that my friends and family enjoy. It takes a lot beating when ones friends and relos eyes light up after that first sip of a freshly brewed coffee from beans that I have roasted and blended myself. And when they ask about it I can regale to them stories about the origins of the beans that went into the brew, how it is grown, the people who farm the coffee, how it is harvested and processed. In the end, what it comes down to is not just the hot|warm|cold brew being consumed but the entire experience from tree to cup.

Coffee really is the progenitor of passion it is claimed to be, around our household anyway .

Mal.

[Mark]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I think the good commercial roaster would do better than home roasters, but not because they use a drum, but because they do it for a living and roast 100s of kilos of beans a week.

The huge industrial roasters who spend millions on this sort of thing certainly would dream of using drums anymore, theyve generally settled on (high tech) convection roasters with mechanical stirring. To quote Mr Schulman "There is simply no reason to believe that drum roasts are better -- those with unlimited budgets wouldnt dream of using one."

[Remy]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Here endeth the lesson grasshopper.

Yes Thundermiyagigod,. I give you my word,..I shall stay focused and find balance. Breathing in through the nose and out through the mouth, I shall seek to improve my skills and practice till I can do it standing on one leg. I will become a legend in my own mind home roasting. ~~~~~~ HiiiiiYaaah!

I teach Miyagi Kan karate. *queue Twilight Zone music*

*thud*

[Thundergod]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Here endeth the lesson grasshopper.

Yes Thundermiyagigod,. I give you my word,..I shall stay focused and find balance. Breathing in through the nose and out through the mouth, I shall seek to improve my skills and practice till I can do it standing on one leg. I will become a legend in my own mind home roasting. ~~~~~~ HiiiiiYaaah!

I teach Miyagi Kan karate. *queue Twilight Zone music*

... as for what to compare mine against Id probably suggest Piazza DOro.  Can you get that in 500g lots?

Your humility is admirable TG  ;D

Im sure I dont know what youre hinting at Tony.

I think it would be a fair comparison because Douwe Egberts are less than 5 minutes down the road from my place.
Im not sure if they roast there but if they do then surely roasts done less than 2kms apart would eliminate some variables.
I wouldnt want them complaining that it was a bit warm on the day or overly humid.  

[Dimal]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Wow! This thread has certainly taken off in a hurry..... ;D

Im not going to throw my hat into the ring though, even though I have been roasting here at home for quite a few years now, Im quite content to just continue to roast for my family, friends and myself of course.

Sounds like a great idea though if it can be organised properly, a standard method of cupping and judging utilised in the fashion recently employed and overseen by Andy at the Victorian AASCA championships. Without established standards and the abilities of a recognised cupping talent I dont know that the outcome would be as revealing as it could otherwise be.

I guess there are also the logistical challenges that an all out CS Roasting Comp. would entail, no small enterprise I would think. Perhaps someone who has been successfully involved in a cupping event could make some suggestions as to how such an event might be staged and managed in an equitable and fair manner, considering the potential for the number of submissions that may be posted in. Very interesting to say the least 8-),

Mal.

[richy_4000]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

David,

Id send you 500gms of Monsoon Malabar (green beans from 5 Senses) to put up against their own roast of that bean (but only available as 1Kg minimum purchase - roasted to order).....

Could be an interesting direct comparison.

Although the Malabar might seem an odd choice - it is the bean Ive experimented with the most..... and 5 Senses also supply it as a SO.

Let me know if you want to proceed - the beans will be roasted in the HT (with manual control).

Great stuff Java!! This is going to be interesting! 8-) Well, my moneys on you to trump the professional roaster Java

[JavaB]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

David,

Id send you 500gms of Monsoon Malabar (green beans from 5 Senses) to put up against their own roast of that bean (but only available as 1Kg minimum purchase - roasted to order).....

Could be an interesting direct comparison.

Although the Malabar might seem an odd choice - it is the bean Ive experimented with the most..... and 5 Senses also supply it as a SO.

Let me know if you want to proceed - the beans will be roasted in the HT (with manual control).

[GrindOnDemand]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

... as for what to compare mine against Id probably suggest Piazza DOro. Can you get that in 500g lots?

Your humility is admirable TG ;D

[GrindOnDemand]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

... have you roasted your own David, & cupped against Peters blends?

Merit though where merit is due - good idea. Just needs a tad organising :-?

Ill send you 469gms post-roast of my latest blend mate, but cant reveal the origins or discerning individal bean features of my commercial blend (or mine for that matter) because ... well, because thats business, hey ;D

Tony

[ozscott]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

That would be the bean of choice for me TG - as per the slow ramp that Mal and Andy recommended under the YBI thread...

92 degrees should do it and a ristretto pour.

Cheers

[JavaB]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting


What would be interesting would be to get a variety of SO green beans from somewhere like 5sences (for those like me in WA)... and they also roast the same batch of SO (which they sell commercially in their SO range).... under the watchful eye of Dean Gallagher - their Master Roaster - and for these to be compared....

Whilst I wouldnt expect the home roast to be the best by any means..... it would be interesting to see how far short of the commercial product it was rated....