expert baristas opinion on home roasting

[Remy]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Here endeth the lesson grasshopper.

Yes Thundermiyagigod,. I give you my word,..I shall stay focused and find balance. Breathing in through the nose and out through the mouth, I shall seek to improve my skills and practice till I can do it standing on one leg. I will become a legend in my own mind home roasting. ~~~~~~ HiiiiiYaaah!

I teach Miyagi Kan karate. *queue Twilight Zone music*

*thud*

[Mark]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I think the good commercial roaster would do better than home roasters, but not because they use a drum, but because they do it for a living and roast 100s of kilos of beans a week.

The huge industrial roasters who spend millions on this sort of thing certainly would dream of using drums anymore, theyve generally settled on (high tech) convection roasters with mechanical stirring. To quote Mr Schulman "There is simply no reason to believe that drum roasts are better -- those with unlimited budgets wouldnt dream of using one."

[Dimal]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I tend to agree with you Mark....

More important than the roasting method used, in my humble opinion, is the knowledge, passion and experience of the roaster in being able to extract the best a particular bean variety has to offer. Now, what I consider to the the best in this situation may not necessarily agree with someone else but in a commercial scenario where the supply of a consistently high quality product is paramount, day in, day out ad infinitum, machinery that makes the tasks more controllable is likely to be able to meet the sought after criteria within more tightly bound limits of tolerance.....

The coffee buying public are becoming ever more critical, and passionate, in their search for a great cup of coffee and you know what its like; when you find an outlet that provides you with exactly what youre looking for, you keep going back. Where we home-roasters might consider slight variations from one roast to another to be "interesting", in the commercial arena it could very well bespoke the loss of business. A very important consideration in the ever fickle minds of the coffee drinking public where the perception of high quality is everything. One slip-up in a couple of roast batches may cause the loss of a significant number of patrons, perhaps forever and in this very competitive industry, businesses can not afford that kind of outcome.

Best summed up perhaps in the paraphrase of... "When youre on a good thing, stick to it." And when you consider all the work that commercial roasters put into the development of "Roasts" that they are prepared to let loose within the public domain, what we do here at home pales by comparison, no matter how long weve been mucking around down the shed with our home-roasting apparatus. Dennis allowed some small insight in to what is involved with this process in a post above..... 100s of Kilos of coffee through his roaster until hes happy with the outcome, after all, his name is on the product and being the knowledgeable, passionate sort of bloke that he is (building quickly on the experiential aspect ), he would never allow anything to leave his premises that did not measure up to the stringent criteria he has no doubt set for himself.

On my best days, I could probably roast up something that would compete very favourably with some of the product that Andy, Dennis and our other Site Sponsor Roasters can deliver. To try and do this every day of the week though for 100s and maybe 1,000s of Kilos of beans, I honestly dont think I could even come close. Anyway, thats not why I roast coffee at home..... I do it because it is interesting, fun, involves a certain amount of science to keep my geeky side happy, allows me to be creative, is very satisfying and allows me to provide a generally high quality product that my friends and family enjoy. It takes a lot beating when ones friends and relos eyes light up after that first sip of a freshly brewed coffee from beans that I have roasted and blended myself. And when they ask about it I can regale to them stories about the origins of the beans that went into the brew, how it is grown, the people who farm the coffee, how it is harvested and processed. In the end, what it comes down to is not just the hot|warm|cold brew being consumed but the entire experience from tree to cup.

Coffee really is the progenitor of passion it is claimed to be, around our household anyway .

Mal.

[cuppacoffee]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

As usual, well said Mal.

One of the strongest memories I have from my childhood involved watching my parents roast coffee in the backyard. I used to love using the DeVe mill, that was decorated with a windmill, and mounted on a wall in our kitchen.

Roasting coffee is a fantastic, sensual experience - whether at home or in a "not too commercial" setting. With the wonderful selection of beans available here every month, and the generous support that is readily available from members, I would urge anyone who hasnt tried it to give it a go. And every now and then, buy a bag from a commercial roaster too!

[luca]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Hi all, attended the Sunbeam course last Saturday in Brisbane. All was OK until I started asking questions, then it was, Thats covered in the paid course... The disturbing thing was the barista claiming that ANY home-based roasting machine would do no more than brown the beans. He said said there was a chasm (my word, cant remember his!) between what we do at home and any commercial roaster. It was claimed that we could never get the same depth of taste, aroma etc. As one who has had no experience at all with coffee until a few months ago, it sort of rattled me to hear such said with such aplomb! So, what am I doing with my corretto? Why do I get such good results from it? Are we fooling ourselves, playing around with our little setups, but in fact missing the mark of good bean roasting? My friends and family, some avid real coffee! drinkers, all want more of what i give em, so surely it cant be all bad? :-?

Good questions, and its nice to see that youre asking.

I think that the fundamental point that were all missing is that the sunbeam course is an introductory course. The trainer probably presumes that you are new to espresso and I agree 1000000% that home-roasting when you are just starting is probably the worst thing that you can possibly do if your goal is to learn to make good espresso. Im probably boring people to death by repeating, as everyone knows, that good espresso is the product of about a million variables, of which coffee is one. In fact, its probably the biggest one. Youre shooting yourself in the foot if you are trying to learn how to make espresso and learn how to roast at the same time. I dont think that there is a single person on this forum who would tell you that if you start roasting your own you will get it right consistently when you start out. How can you ever tell if the exceptionally good or exceptionally bad cup that you just made was down to your skills as a barista or your skills as a roaster?

To give you an example, my old boss taught an employee who had never drunk coffee in his life how to extract great shots and pour killer latte art in about three weeks. THREE WEEKS! How? It was simple; the guy kept all the variables the same - same same bend, same equipment, same milk, same technique ... everything. After pulling hundreds of shots per day with all of the same variables, those three weeks actually added up to a tonne of experience. The dude was able to pinpoint the mistakes that he was making by writing off all of the variables as the possible source.

It seems to me that the trainer was probably trying to deliver a very important message, but he didnt exactly go about it in a very helpful way.

More to come ...

Luca

[Thundergod]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Some good points there Id like to agree with Luca.

The trainer presuming that Rob was new to espresso is a fair assumption.
A good trainer shouldnt do that (I am a qualified trainer).

Trying to learn roasting at the same time as making espresso: I agree its not the best idea. I took forever to venture into roasting. Im sure I even posted I couldnt ever see myself doing it.
But here I am now having moved on from my souped up popper then bowl and to my corretto.

Im still learning about espresso but now what I do know helps me with learning about roasting.

I disagree however with your opinion about the message the trainer was trying to deliver. On the face of it he made a wild generalisation.

What are the chances hes tried a home roasted bean?

[Wushoes]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I think the point Luca was trying to make is that it was an introductory course. Nothing more and nothing less....if the snob wanted to learn more, he should have enrolled in to his local specialty coffee training centre.

[luca]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I disagree however with your opinion about the message the trainer was trying to deliver. On the face of it he made a wild generalisation.

Sorry, I didnt make that clear. I suspect that the message that the trainer was trying to deliver was that learning to roast and learning to extract espresso at the same time is not a clever idea. I think that that is a perfectly fair message and I doubt that anyone would really disagree with that. I was implying that the way in which the trainer went about it was, as you said, by making a generalisation and I dont think that that generalisation was particularly helpful. It wouldnt have taken any effort to say that home roasting is something that you need to try for yourself, but that the whole experience will be immensely more rewarding if you defer it until you have learned how to extract a decent espresso consistently. I think that were in agreement about that.

Cheers,

Luca

[Thundergod]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

So whats the point of an introductory course?
Keep your mouth shut and do what I say?
How do you know how much you can get out of an introductory course unless you ask questions?

I have no problem with a trainer explaining that a question may be too advanced for the level of instruction currently being delivered.
After all, all the other students may have no coffee knowledge whatsoever.

I think the point a lot of us have been trying to make is that this particular trainer should have put his brain into gear before his mouth. He was a little lacking in diplomacy.

[pie_in_ear]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I think what we need to do is think of the other side of the picture.
The baristas running these courses are doing so for a marginally better wage than they earn behind a machine. They are baristas are not trainers, and Sunbeam are giving you the course for free to get you started. The barista running the course is expected to cover a certain amount of ground within a set time, and talking about home roasting may be detrimental to this or not allowed. Remember that Sunbeam is running these courses, not the barista, and they may tell the barista in charge to have certain responses to certain questions.

P.s. The barista running the course says he remembers you but you took it the wrong way, although he stands by his comment.

[luca]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I think the point a lot of us have been trying to make is that this particular trainer should have put his brain into gear before his mouth. He was a little lacking in diplomacy.

Im in full agreement with that statement. Lets call it statement one.

However, I have been trying to make the point that learning how to roast and extract espresso at the same time is not a good idea, and that may have been the point that the trainer was trying to make. Lets call that statement two.

Statement two is an entirely different point from statement one. I dont think that it has yet been touched on by any other poster in this thread and it is entirely consistent with statement two.

Im sorry, but Im just a little confused by your post. Its pretty clear that you agree with statement one, seeing as I quoted you ;D Im not sure what youre saying about statement two, but it seems to me that you agree with it. Is that correct, or not? Im not sure, but I think that we are saying the same thing. Im not trying to defend this particular trainer, I am trying to offer a possible explanation for his/her comments.

So whats the point of an introductory course?
Keep your mouth shut and do what I say?
How do you know how much you can get out of an introductory course unless you ask questions?

I have no problem with a trainer explaining that a question may be too advanced for the level of instruction currently being delivered.
After all, all the other students may have no coffee knowledge whatsoever.

]

The point of an introductory course is to cover the basics. As you say, the trainers response was total crap and, as I say, it was completely unhelpful.

The trainer should actually (a) have a good level of coffee knowledge and (b) answer all of their students questions in a complete way. I think that that often involved explaining different schools of thought and suggesting how the person can make up their own mind. As you say, if it is an introductory course, the trainer should probably explain that it is beyond the scope of the course. The trainer might even want to explain that it is an espresso making course, not a roasting course, and that it might be better to seek advice on roasting from someone with expertise in that area. (Although, there its a bit of a pity that there is a massive gap in the training courses offered in Australia - where do you go to learn how to roast and taste coffee?)

My own response would be to explain, as I already have, that roasting and extracting espresso are two different skills. I would always prioritise learning to extract espresso over learning to roast for espresso for the simple - and, IMHO, indisputable - reason that you cant really critique your own roasts if you dont know how to extract them properly. Similarly, you cant really critique your own espresso if you arent sure that the coffee that you are using is actually up to the task of producing a good espresso. The best course of action is to defer learning to roast. Once you have learnt how to extract a decent shot, the cost of trying out home roasting is so miniscule that I wouldnt bother listening to what anyone has to say about how good home roasting is or is not. Just buy a popper, pick up a starter kit from CS and give it a shot. Its hardly going to break the bank!

There are two distinct dangers in doing this before you are able to consistently extract a drinkable espresso shot. The first is that you might come out with a terrible roast, but think that it is really good because you are pulling relatively bad shots and, so, the roast doesnt matter as much. This means that your frame of reference is too low and you run the risk of settling for coffee that is less good than you might otherwise be drinking. The second danger is the reverse. You might produce an absolutely sensational roast, but extract terrible shots and conclude that home roasting sucks. In this case, your frame of reference is too high and you might just have decided against the best thing to come your way in coffee. This underscores the role of going to cafes and trying their coffee - you need to have a yardstick to know what you are shooting for. Once you are able to (a) identify and (b) extract a great shot of espresso, you can make an informed decision about home roasting. Before then, theres no point.

The length of the last two paragraphs underscores why the trainer might well have said that home roasting sucks - its easier than going through that whole explanation ... which is probably quite poorly expressed. However, thats not a sufficient excuse for giving the response that was given, in my books.

Cheers,

Luca

[RobT]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Re Poineer Roasters comment: Remember that Sunbeam is running these courses, not the barista, and they may tell the barista in charge to have certain responses to certain questions.
P.s. The barista running the course says he remembers you but you took it the wrong way, although he stands by his comment.

I did not and do not intend to criticize the barista, but took (and still do ) exception to his comments about the futility of home roasting. He then highlighted where to get good roasted beans, including mentioning your business by name. I attended the course to get a greater understanding of the process, rather than being subjected to one persons opinion of where one should shop! The young man in question had a good working knowledge of his craft, and most attending would have gone home with a greater knowledge and appreciation of coffee. Maybe I shouldnt have been soaking up all the practical wisdom given and applied in this forum before attending, then Id not expect so much! ;D ;D Sorry if I stepped on any professionally sensitive issues. You guys are the greatest, and i think we all learn so much from the diversity of ideas here. Rob

[Dimal]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Sorry if I stepped on any professionally sensitive issues. You guys are the greatest, and i think we all learn so much from the diversity of ideas here. Rob

Gday Rob,

I dont think thats the case mate and the point youve raised is a very valid one 8-). In the end, I think it all comes down to the multitude of opinions about what goes into making great coffee...... Seems to bring out all the passion in us, just the nature of the beast I think and why we all strive to get better at what we do .

Cheers mate ,
Mal.

[RobT]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Thanks Mal! One thing for sure, its made me want to keep on improving! No longer content to make a reasonable shot... it now has to be a GOOD one, much to the amusement of my fanclub!(wife & 14 yo boy) Speaking of which... Rob

[Dimal]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

much to the amusement of my fanclub!(wife & 14 yo boy) Speaking of which... Rob

LOL ;D..... Sure know where you;re coming from here mate [smiley=laugh.gif]

Mal.