expert baristas opinion on home roasting

[luca]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Regarding the bigger question of how home roasts compare with commercial roasts, I think that the taste test is a great way to go. I have previously offered to run peoples home roasts through the spare grinders at first pour for them to try and had almost no uptake on that offer, so Im pleasantly surprised to see that there is some interest in this project this time around. (Running peoples roasts through at first pour is a standing offer, but subject to time and grinder availability - unfortunately I havent had my armada of grinders available of late due to the barista comps.)

To my mind, the big advantage of doing the taste test is that it actually takes us towards getting somewhere that means something. Making the unqualified statement that "commercial roasts are better than home roasts" is utterly ludicrous. By the same token, the reaction that "home roasts are as good as commercial roasts" is also utterly ludicrous. Both statements are essentially meaningless.

For starters, the distinction between home roasts and commercial roasts is pretty vague. I know a guy who is churning out utterly excellent coffee from a 22kg roaster in his garage, but doesnt sell any, whereas I also know of one or two people who are roasting coffee with a heat gun and selling it over the internet. Does labelling one "commercial" and one not "commercial" really give anyone any useful information? Then theres the fact that both types of roasters face the same sort of challenges in learning how to roast and how to buy green. Again, I know of one guy roasting at home who has nearly a decade of experience and I know of some "commercial" roasters who dont even taste coffee before they buy it. Is the label "commercial" helpful in that context? In terms of equipment, I would argue, as Dennis has, that its fair to expect that a roaster costing many, many thousands of dollars would perform better than something costing less than a thousand. But, even then, some commercial roasters are easier to use than others. The final issue that is worthwhile mentioning is that personal taste is a deeply personal matter. If someone is happy with a particular coffee, who is anyone else to say that they shouldnt be?

Blind tasting a few different roasts against each other sounds like a great way to get some meaningful results.

David,

Id send you 500gms of Monsoon Malabar (green beans from 5 Senses) to put up against their own roast of that bean (but only available as 1Kg minimum purchase - roasted to order).....

Could be an interesting direct comparison.

Although the Malabar might seem an odd choice - it is the bean Ive experimented with the most..... and 5 Senses also supply it as a SO.

Let me know if you want to proceed - the beans will be roasted in the HT (with manual control).

Thanks for the offer, Java. Id happily volunteer to taste the results, but I have to confess that I havent drunk much malabar as a SO. I would find it easier to give meaningful feedback if we had something a little more commonplace.

Id also love to throw in something roasted on something a little less swish than a HT with manual controls - sounds like the ferrari of home roasters! TG, are you using a corretto? Do you want to send your ismali down?

Theres no reason for people to put that much faith in my opinion over anyone elses. Could we get a few CS members to do some tasting, too? I dont want to name names, but Reuben, Michael, Steve and a whole gaggle of my beloved regulars on Saturday have very good palates. They make it very difficult for me to get away with anything ;P Chris is relatively nearby, too.

Lets make it happen!

Cheers,

Luca

[JavaB]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Luca,

Yep, I know the Malabar isnt really "main stream".... I was thinking about a direct comparison with a commercial roasters product.....

But if you are interested in an "absolute" test..... I have some very nice PNG AA which I could roast up..... does that sound better?

Re the Hottop being a Ferrari.... well with coffee roasters Im a firm believer in the 90:20 rule.....

You can achieve 90% (or greater) of the performance by spending 20% (or less) of the expense.....

When Greg and I did the Gene vs HT shoot-out we both agreed (to our palate) that often the roasts from a Corretto were as good as, if not better than, what we were achieving - but that was with an "out of the box" roaster in both cases....

So it would be interesting to see what others felt now that Ive "tweaked" my Ferrari..... it now is running under PID control - as Ive discovered what I wanted to achieve using manual control... and have now implemented it.... :

If you have any other variety of bean you would like to suggest - I can check out my stash..... but Id rather send a SO roast as blending adds a whole new dimension..... and one that Im not very confident at!!!

[Thundergod]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

luca

Yes I agree with statement two.

Sorry if my last post was a little confusing.
I got a little heated in my response.

Any teacher should welcome questions.
It was his attitude that came across in the posts that annoyed me.
I know I didnt have his side of the story so that may be unfair on my part but Ill take Robs word for how it came across to him.

He may be able to consistently extract a better coffee than me over a working day but thats what he does.
When I helped out Di Bartoli at Aroma Fest last year my coffees towards the end of the 10 hours were way better than the first few.

However, remember that with no work experience whatsoever in a café I talked myself into the chance to demonstrate what I could do and got the job.
So maybe Im not too bad.  

They are baristas are not trainers

So maybe Sunbeam need to employ baristas who ARE trainers.
There are many people in this world with skills they are unable to pass on because one skill they dont have is teaching.

Ive reached a time in my life where Im unable to perform a lot of the martial arts moves I used to be able to in my youth.
A bad knee doesnt help for a start;
Neither does less flexibility now that Im no longer in my prime.
But Im still a very good teacher and my students can do the things I cant even though they couldnt before they came to me.

Ive defended Sunbeam a lot on this forum.
Theyve been good to me and a lot more people at work are enjoying fresh coffee through the 6910 that replaced the very old 6900.
Recently they sent me, for free, the part I needed to fix my 0450 grinder.

But while I appreciate their supplying a free introductory course, they shouldnt do a half a***d job of it.
They should provide qualified teachers.

[Thundergod]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

TG, are you using a corretto?  Do you want to send your ismali down?

Yes I use a corretto now.
Ismali no.
Ive only done one roast of it, and despite my wife saying its the best coffee Ive ever made her, I wouldnt dare think Ive nailed it in one.

I was thinking the PNG Kimel if anything because I roast that very regularly and have only had one complaint. That was that the roast before was better. I know where the difference was and the next batch got a very big thumbs up.

When were you thinking of doing this or doesnt it matter?

Ill do 500g of Kimel if that suits you, but you have to compare it to standard Piazza DOro.
I believe the Piazza DOro meets the conditions you set earlier. Does it not?

[cuppacoffee]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

This seems to have become very complicated. A challenge was made, then accepted, and now all sorts of provisos are being made.

Isnt the idea to compare the outcomes of home-roasting with that of commercial roasting technique?

To simplify, Id like to make the following suggestion, that perhaps wasnt clear earlier:

1. Id invite a home roaster to select any single origin I have, to take away and home roast (yes, TG, I also have Kimmel). That way, both parties are working with exactly the same bean. If you need more than the 500gm that was suggested to play around with, thats fine.

2. We decide on a day to come back, and invite CSers to come along and do the cupping/taste test. I have far more trust in CSers coming to their own decision - after all, CSers are the consumers!

How does that sound?

[JavaB]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Dennis,

Yep, that was what I had envisaged earlier as well..... it would be interesting to see how a given bean (why I suggested the Malabar as I have some of 5Senses already - and they also retail it as a roasted SO.... and they are relatively local to me)......

But any SO would be fine by me (as long as the provider of the beans could supply a bit more for experimentation or even just details of the level they would be roasting their beans to so that the CS roaster could provide a similar - hopefully the same - level of roast....

But what ever method is decided.... Ill go along with and throw my hat in if required..... (the problem being Im on the other side of the Aus!!)

It would just be an interesting experiment and Id like to get a more "precise" comparison rather than what we have all been guessing......

And yes, you can demolish my results by sending me some Yirg if you wished..... just to see if I can get closer to your roast

[ant_nakedcoffee]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Its interesting how this all panned out because i remember RobT from two weeks ago. Firstly, the gentleman in question mentioned that he didnt like coffee and wasnt into it. Secondly, he mentioned that his wife was the coffee drinker and thirdly that that he was roasting it on the side to make her happy. I was and I still am getting a major disconnect to these comments and parts of this following thread has been a whole load of crap. Im really disappointed in you Chris Natoli for jumping on the bandwagon because I presume that you would be in the industry enough to know zoe and some if not all the other melbourne trainers to appreciate just what sunbeam has put into this and how good the course material is, especially considering that its free. Ive checked out what other coffee roasters or training institutions are charging and its anywhere between $40-$200 for what is essentially the meat of this course but padded out with HEAPS of filler. :|

To address this whole issue of bean browners and whatnot- since this is my personal opinion coming through into the sunbeam class.
I can see there being no possible way for the same roaster to get better results out of a hottop compared to something like a renegade/probat/deidrich. The amount of variables that you can control and hence the attention to detail that can be had is light years apart.
Hence the comment that there will not be the SAME depth of flavour and aroma out of a home roast compared to a commercial roast. Now I should have qualified it a bit more and said a "good commercial roast" but there you go.. score a 1/2 pt to Robt. Thats different to saying that a home roaster is going to churn out shit 100% of the time. Ive been to the coffeegeek meets at pioneer and at shots coffee and theres been some reasonable home roasts but nothing that was shit. But for sure, I definitely support home roasting because its another group of people who are into fresh coffee and the more people there are out there with a decent coffee education the better it is for people who do it right in the industry.

From where I stand as the contract trainer for sunbeam.
We have 30minutes to deliver the theory, and roughly 45-50minutes of the time is spent putting the attendees through their paces on the machines. So thats 30 minutes of theory which MUST be achieved quickly, concisely and clearly (buying fresh-what to look for and where, bean storage, shot defn. & e.g. milk defn. & e.g.) Time on the machines is the most vital part because the contact point between the trainer and the attendee is where the value of the course is. The rest of it can easily be accessed on the dvd or the internet.

Now, heres where RobT comes in.

Robt brought up his home roasting several times during the course of the presentation and it had very little to do with the course material so while I shut him down on the spot- I also offered him the olive branch of "we can talk about it in more detail during practice time" This itself is something that hed never done and this was despite me having a quick chat to him about ethiopian yirga cheffe before the class itself had started. I wouldnt have started a conversation like that with him in the first place if I was dismissive of a home roast. So I dont know what the deal is here but misappropriating my words and totally taking it out of context into an online forum and generating such negativity is ... as my friend puts it ... way totally uncool yo!

Now lets play the devils advocate and say I encouraged RobT to talk about his home roasting more in the presentation period. That ends up eating into the practice time of all the attendees but also ruins their train of thought for the section I am teaching. Theyre gonna walk away thinking, "I sat in the class listening to that kid and some old dude talking about home roasting.. no effin relevance to learning how to make coffee through my machine and I drove in from the Gold Coast! Only had 20minutes on the machine WTF"

Thats a situation that I will always be avoiding as long as Im a trainer.

Anthony aka"Thats a good question and it will be addressed in the next section" "thats great but its off-topic so well talk about it during practice time" Lau.

[ant_nakedcoffee]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Thundergod:

Funnily enough teaching martial arts and teaching coffee have some unwitting similarities. Ive always joked with my friends about making a barista kata but that would be so geeky Id be walking around with 2 black eyes and a limp.

[ozscott]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I think there are parallels...Yoshinkan Aikido brought me some Zen calm...and so does a good shot!!!

[Sparky]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting


There seems to have been a few Rashomon moments in this thread.

I know Ant from many CS and CG meetings and hes a very talented and meticulous barista with a real passion for coffee. Hes nothing if not diplomatic and also very focussed and his comments are his opinion.

I would also be a bit cautious with home roasting if not an actual coffee drinker. Good feedback from the process is critical, so getting that second hand is less than optimal.

As for home roasting vs commercial roasting, it seems a bit moot. If you like what you make, then youve satisfied the most important criterion for home roasting. However, if you like a commercial roast better, then there are still other reasons for persisting with home roasting. For instance its a hobby, and people get quite passionate about their hobbies. It also allows a virtual tour throughout the coffee producing world, as you explore each origin. It allows one to experiment and to strive to understand and finally nail a roast. All in all worthwhile pursuits and probably the reason that most of us are here.

I have had some great home roasts and more not so great. My best espresso shots still come from commercial roasts, which is probably more a testament to the subtle art of blending.

I think a shootout is a great idea. Especially if one can be organised in each state. Maybe two meetings. One is a home roasters shoot-out that gives us a state CS home roasting champ. Then a meet of the home roast representative against a commercial roaster. The comp should either use a good SO bean or a simple blend of no more than 2 beans, like a moka-java blend in order to level the playing field a bit. We could even accept posted samples so that the likes of the legendary Mal could compete.

This is like the CS 2020 summit, only with a shorter timeline.

Definitely an interesting thread.

Cheers,

Mark.

[Viviane]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

So when we have this roast off, will bean size count, coz that seems to be an unspoken but very important part of this thread.....

[ozscott]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Thats a bit rough Viviane...but funny. Seriously the home roasting thing produces such good shots when done well that I havent come across better roasted professionally locally. However I have not tried Pioneer Roaster up the coast which I will have to do. However I have coffees at the better coffee houses in Brisbane for many years and Im wondering how much better it gets than at home (without wanting to sound pompous about whats happening in house)....perhaps I will have to go to Melbourne to beat the home brew

[Thundergod]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

This seems to have become very complicated.  A challenge was made, then accepted, and now all sorts of provisos are being made.

Isnt the idea to compare the outcomes of home-roasting with that of commercial roasting technique?

To simplify, Id like to make the following suggestion, that perhaps wasnt clear earlier:

1.  Id invite a home roaster to select any single origin I have, to take away and home roast (yes, TG, I also have Kimmel).  That way, both parties are working with exactly the same bean.  If you need more than the 500gm that was suggested to play around with, thats fine.

2.  We decide on a day to come back, and invite CSers to come along and do the cupping/taste test.  I have far more trust in CSers coming to their own decision - after all, CSers are the consumers!

How does that sound?

Dennis I belive David set the challenge and he said I could nominate any commercial roast to compare mine against.
Hence my suggesting my Kimel (of which Ive done dozens of roasts) vs Piazza DOro which is a commonly available commercial roast.

Now Kimel at 10 paces vs you is a different proposition altogether (I like to win).

[Thundergod]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Thundergod:

Funnily enough teaching martial arts and teaching coffee have some unwitting similarities.  Ive always joked with my friends about making a barista kata but that would be so geeky Id be walking around with 2 black eyes and a limp.

Agreed Ant.
Ive the same thing quite a few times myself.
Both involve repeatable processes and lots and lots of practice.

[RobT]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Hi Ant. Had to chuckle at your antsy response to my little beef about the course! :P As I said earlier, you know your craft well, and most would have benefited from it. As for me not being a coffee drinker... I also brew small quantities of spirits (legally) that apparently taste better than any commercial whiskey. Trouble is, Im not a drinker. Moral is, one can have a passion for creating, making, concocting, brewing something that one doesnt necessarily drink on a regular basis. Having said that, I am sloooooowly educating my palate to discern the different nuances, flavours etc in my home roasted coffee. My questions were genuine, and I really didnt appreciate my efforts being passed off as merely bean-browning. As these posts have revealed, home roasting has a depth of passion AND quality that cant be ignored. Can I offer you an olive branch in the form of a small pack (too stingey to send a big one!) of my u-beaut Corretto-roasted Brazillian Daterra 2005 Reserve? (yes, I am serious! ) Hey, I reckon the Roast-off is a great idea! Can we all hear how it goes please? Even if it turns out an uneven contest, at least well know to work harder! Rob