expert baristas opinion on home roasting

[Thundergod]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Hi all, attended the Sunbeam course last Saturday in Brisbane. All was OK until I started  asking questions, then it was, Thats covered in the paid course...  The disturbing thing was the barista claiming that ANY home-based roasting machine would do no more than brown the beans. He said said there was a chasm (my word, cant remember his!) between what we do at home and any commercial roaster. It was claimed that we could never get the same depth of taste, aroma etc.    As one who has had no experience at all with coffee until a few months ago, it sort of rattled me to hear such said with such aplomb! So, what am I doing with my corretto?  Why do I get such good results from it?  Are we fooling ourselves, playing around with our little setups, but in fact missing the mark of good bean roasting?  My friends and family, some avid real coffee!  drinkers, all want more of what i give em, so surely it cant be all bad?   :-?

Firstly let me a ddress the highlighted words.

"any commercial roaster" Obvious exaggeration.

Whilst I like the wares of some of the commercial roasters Ive tried, I dont like all their blends and some I havent found a blend I like at all.

Whilst I agree with Dennis that a $50 setup shouldnt be compared to a Deidrich or Probat etc, there still has to be skill involved in the use of such specialist equipment.

To quote myself "Its not what youve got but what you do with it that counts".

Last year I was buying Campos from a cafe in North Sydney because Id finally started working and no longer could enjoy the luxury of visiting Hazel at her roastery whenever I liked.

I didnt drink the coffee there though because they murdered it.

We all know theres a lot in the chain to an excellent coffee.

One of the cafes on campus at work uses Allpress and to me its the best commercial coffee you can buy at work.
Some of that must come from the passion and skill of the barista because the best espresso Ive tasted they made from my beans.
The first PBTM made a shot no better than I could before the owner took up the challenge and produced that Godshot.

It only takes one broken link in the chain to ruin the attempt at perfection.


"claimed that we could never get the same depth of taste, aroma etc."
Ill match my home roast skills again a bad/complacent commercial roaster any day.

[cuppacoffee]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

This is turning into quite a discussion!

To begin with, for those who use a popper or corretto I have great admiration. Roasting a small quantity like that to perfection requires incredible precision that dare I say, in some ways, exceeds the precision required by a commercial roaster. By that, I mean that when roasting in commercial quantities, one particular roast load can generally end up blended with another. In that respect, it can give a commercial roaster an advantage.

Can I also say that the huge investment made in equipment by commercial roasters is done so for good reason. I really dont mean to be arrogant, but if you really think a $50 set up does the same job then, well, what can I say?

As others have stated, its not just about the equipment. I cant tell you how much coffee (and consequently wired nights) Ive had in the past 12 months and how many 100s of kilos went through the Diedrich till I started to be happy with what I was doing.

Further, I really consider myself a novice. Although Im doing my best to learn as much as I can, as quickly as I can, Im not so arrogant as to think it might happen overnight (though that would be nice). Although we havent met, I have great admiration and respect for the likes of Jason, Peter, and some others. To have their ability to produce, and reproduce, blends that are consistent year in and year out, despite what the crop affords, is nothing less than masterful.

One day, Id like to catch up to people like this. If I had one wish, it would be to have a mentor of their calibre.

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Being on both sides of the fence gives you a bit of perspective. While I still fancy my popper roasts, it is merely a tool to provide me with samples. Its faster, and I can get an array of permutations out in short order. It brings out the brightness, and highlights many aspects that would have gone unnoticed in my commercial roaster.

That being said, I prefer the product coming out of the commercial roaster.

However, I dont think that those of us who home roast should chuck everything out. The average cafe on the corner cannot compare to the quality and freshness that we CSers enjoy from our home roasting exploits. We are a biased audience, and have much higher standards and expectations.

We also have to take into consideration the target audience of SB and their training sessions. Most are not as passionate about coffee as CSers. They often just think, "That will look good on my bench, and I may just get some use out of it." Theyre also the sort of people who have the entire Cafe Series line of appliances. Try explaining the finer points of differences in processing or how cupping works, and just watch their eyes glaze over.

Gotta keep it all in perspective.

[martybean]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

In fairness to David and other commercial roasters the coffee they produce is second to none. What happens with it once it leaves them is out of their control.To give you an example I have got coffee from Venniziano through a friend who was passing by there one day and it was great.We have 2 cafes out my way that use Venniziano coffee and the results are hit and miss to say the least.So while I love my home roasted coffee as do my friends and family I think a commercial roaster does a more even job.
I would also like to here from Dennis and Nunnu to read their views on the subject.

[ozscott]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Im sure your right David about the skill set for a great roaster (and I think that Luca and perhaps you have mentioned that commercial roasting is better than home roasting on this site before), but I know what my taste buds say and the reports from friends and family - they have not tasted better coffee anywhere....so I have no doubt that a master roaster roasting and getting the beans to a Barista like youself to use within a couple of days would produce a coffee that is better than mine but I dont know where that happens where I live. The closest I have had to home (and I mean really the same quality) was Naked Coffee in Brisbane. But really, particularly for milk coffees we might be getting down to nuances that allude most people, even experienced coffaholics who love great coffee (in the pure espresso form it might well be noticably different).

Cheers

[ozscott]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I think that Pioneer Roaster hit it on the head - the quality of the beans and freshness of the roasts means that someone who has plenty of home roast experience is going to beat 99% of beans that you can buy already roasted....

[Remy]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I too have been fortunate enough to try Dennis (CuppaCoffee)roasts, but I think also unfortunate in a way because,..I believe Ive been spoiled if you like,.. and dont think I could ever achieve such flavours in the cup from my home roasts.

I have done quite a few roasts at home now via the popper, heavy pan on gas stove,. and now BBQ barrel roast (best results so far), but I have tried Dennis roasted Yirg, Ethiopain Gambella Naturals and his new Defibrillator Espresso Blend, and I can honestly say I have never tasted anything like the Yirg and especially the Ethiopian Gambella Naturals. The flavours I experienced in the Gambella was an absolute shock to be honest,.. I had no idea that flavours like this were even possible from the humble coffee bean. To me and I told Dennis this too,.. it was the first time I have enjoyed something in the cup that was so flavoursome, like all over the mouth and so unusual (and it matched the aroma too which was something completely new to me also). It was like drinking an entirely different drink altogether,.not just a coffee if you know what I mean. I literally could not even detect the aroma of coffee as such,.. the pungent aroma of like a fermented fruit with sickly sweet and chocolate overtone there also,..was so strong that it masked any of the usual coffee aroma that I have detected in every roast prior to this.

I am tempted to get some green Gambella and roast myself,.. but hesitant at the same time because I think I will be very disappointed as I doubt I will be able to roast to the same perfection and get those flavours to come out like Dennis roast.

So while I will continue to roast at home,.. because no doubt everyone will agree, its a heap of fun,... and its also still a huge step up from what I was drinking 6months ago,.. it will always be in the back of my mind that my roasts arent drawing out the flavours of the bean to their maximum potential, and Ill just have to treat myself to some commercial roasts now and then to reconfirm that .

[JavaB]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

OK, with poppers Id agree... but with Corretto and over a 15-20min roast period?

Marc,

In theory there should be..... a drum roast has (relatively) little air flow - with the Corretto it is massive..... so where the drum contains some of the smoke and volatiles which will flavour the beans the Corretto will blow these away instantly..... also the Corretto is hitting the surface of the beans with very hot, dry and fast moving air.... which should evaporate more volatiles....

However in practice.... comparing the Corretto with the HT (fitted with full manual control) I find very little difference. The HT is used so that it follows a typical Corretto profile (also manually controlled).... And the air flow in the HT is much, much lower than the Corretto - even at maximum fan speed..... so my results dont indicate much difference.....

But a commercial roaster - like Dens ...... yep there is a difference in taste.

[GrindOnDemand]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Ive been using the same blend from the same local specialty roaster for the past three years with my customers - the reason being that its consistently excellent, my customers love it, & I know as a barista how to get the best out of it having worked with it for so long.

A couple of weeks ago in a bold move I decided to inflict use a blend of my own Corretto roasted beans on customers for the whole day. I pre-warned them, and asked them for their frank & honest feedback the next day. The overwhelming response? That my 3 bean blend was quote "superior in flavour" to the blend I usually use. I felt very humbled by the positive response .

However, there is a reason I wouldnt/couldnt use my own roasts from the Corretto on a daily basis on customers - that being the point I made at the start of consistent excellence. Commercial roasters have the infrastructure to minimise inconsistencies in results - I dont! That & the fact the heatgun would cark it after a week :

Tony

[marcstolk]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

To be honest, I agree with his assesment on home roasting.

You can never achieve the nuances that you get from a cast iron drum roaster compared to a fluid bed/hot air roaster that roasts in 6 minutes.

OK, with poppers Id agree... but with Corretto and over a 15-20min roast period?

[Wushoes]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Certainly there are differences within different professional roasters using the exact same bean....even if they were to roast to the same rough profile! It all depends on how the burner package is configured, airflow, drum speed which determines how much contact time with the drum or air time the beans spend during the roast....even the material chosen for the drum. So many variables...a lifetime to master.

[JavaB]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I have to agree that there are differences.....

Ive roasted quite a bit of Yirg in both the Corretto and the HT.... both have been very good (but slightly different)....

Then Den (Cuppacoffee) sent his "sample bags" including some Yirg..... and it was magnificent!!! There were notes in the espresso Id never tasted in one of my roasts - and it was great.....

When Greg and I were comparing the Gene and the HT we also got different results from the same bean even when trying to follow the same profile..... and we didnt always agree which was best either....

So, yes there is a difference.... and this might or might not be to your preference... (this difference is the greatest with popper or other fast roasting).... the difference might be regarded as positive or not - depending on your taste preference...

And once accustomed to a certain taste profile, a roast not following that profile might be deemed not as good.... as it it different to what is expected. That will apply equally to those who normally consume commercial roasts - or their own home roasts.

However IMHO they are all good - just different! And that difference (like with Dens roast) could appeal to you more than your own.

[COFFEECHASER]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

I would particularly be interested in Dennis opinion, and others who have made transition from home roasting to commercial roasting, on this matter.

I for one have been enjoying Dennis "Cuppacoffee" beans over the last month or so (that I have bought regularly not the same beans) over many of my own roasts. Granted it could just be me. Plus I have not used a thermocouple and graphed roast profiles yet, but I could now that I brought my mulitmeter home from my parents this week. I like roasting at home and experimenting and am sure I could get better with more roasts but still I think there is a difference between the roasts. So think there may be some validity in what the trainer said.

Plus I am sure professional roasters have experimented with beans a lot more than the average home user to get it to the profile they want, by sheer volume of roasts. Of course a home roaster could catch up this over time. I like roasting SO at home more than blends so for me professional blends have been way better than MY home blends.

It all comes down to personal taste.

Of course the pride in roasting your own beans and knowing you have done it can make it taste that bit nicer as well

[Wushoes]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

To be honest, I agree with his assesment on home roasting.

You can never achieve the nuances that you get from a cast iron drum roaster compared to a fluid bed/hot air roaster that roasts in 6 minutes. Even on the sample roaster we have at work...we will sample roast an origin, cup it up....then proceed to roast it to the same colour and get totally different results! Fluid bed roasters seem a bit flatter and a bit sharper in flavour.

Some Sunbeam trainers are professional roasters and/or baristas with a wealth of knowledge. I dont like the fact that he responded with "thats in our paid course". Any snob who comes in to my work is more than welcome to ask as many questions as they like provided we have time to talk. Plenty of knowledge around given we have 3 roasters (1 of them with 24 years experience) and champion baristas.

Regardless of what was said at the training course....to put it blankly (hopefully without sounding like a total arrogant ass)....no home roast can compete with a professional specialty coffee roastery. I admire what you guys do at home....its hard to find good fresh beans that taste great....hence your venture in to home roasting....but roasting is an art and there is no real course you can do to learn...its an art that is passed on from one master roaster to his apprentice.

edit: pioneer beat me to it.

[pie_in_ear]

Re: expert baristas opinion on home roasting

Okay, I dont agree 100% with what was said, and I know this post is going to be controversial but.........

If it is the same person who has been doing the course for some time, he is a great barista. He works in some of Brisbanes most talked about espresso bars, is trained by one of the countries top baristas, and has placed well in Qld AASCA Comps. If it is not him, Ill stand corrected.

Personally I think there is a chasm between home roasts and (some) commercial roasts. Dont get me wrong, if I wasnt in the industry Im in, I would probably home roast.

Let me break it down into a few points.

1) Most home roasters are using beans far superior to most commercial roasters.

2) Home Roasting gives you the chance to experience a variety of beans at a variety of roast levels over a variety of freshness levels. This is the best reason to do it yourself, and the reason I would recommend it to others.

3) When starting to roast yourself at home you probably have little knowledge of the process. Years later you may know more than most pro roasters. My business partner was a home roaster until we started Pioneer and his level of knowledge learned from home roasting for 6 years is massive.

Taking all this into account. If I was to roast a bean of my choice the way I want to, I would get a better result on the Diedrich than on any other home roasting method (Keeping all variables the same).

However, If I took a home roast and compared it to every roasted bean available to me by post or in my local area, Im sure I would prefer it to 99% of the commercial stuff.

Im not knocking home roasting, I think its great, but I am standing up for my professional brothers and sisters.