FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

[javabeen]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

I picked up my baby roaster on Saturday and did 2 roasts. Im a complete novice to drum roasting with gas, relying purely on what Ive learned about roasting from using the popper and Corretto over the past few years.

So Im posting this so I/we can all learn from each others experiences with this baby...

First, I gotta say how much fun it is to use, and so simple. Im using my existing dual 8mj burner camp stove hooked up to a 4kg gas bottle.

I put 200g of Peru beans in, turned on the burner to full for a sacrificial drum seasoning roast. Got a fair bit of smoke as the chaff was coming off. Took the drum off a few times and opened it up to let some of the chaff out. Lots of sweet aromas on opening the drum each time, very nice.

Looking inside the drum I noticed the beans were not roasting evenly. First crack happened about 9mins at which point I turned the burner to low and then off completely at rolling first crack about a minute later. I pulled the roast at around 11 mins as the beans looked about right. Tipped into the vac cooler. Never reached 2nd crack.
As I said, quite an uneven roast, see pic Peru Roast 1. Most beans had black burn spots on them. Overall not a very dark roast. The Peru roasts really evenly in the Corretto and Gene. Post roast weight came in at 170g, 15% weight loss.
I was tempted to toss the beans, but I was so curious to find out what they tasted like. So I cupped it and  [smiley=shocked.gif]... it was sweeter and smoother than the other methods used to roast thats for sure, and right after roasting. I was shocked!
No grassiness, the acidity was mild and smooth. Loads of body. The shot poured really well as has been mentioned here before. It seems Im getting more coffee from the shots ie theyre not blonding till much much later, they just seem to be brown for longer. Dont understand why though, more solubles perhaps than air roasting? Not sure, but Im happy to get more coffee. I did get some bubbles on the crema though.
Yesterday I got better shots and more sweetness, the bubbles in the crema were not there either. Again getting more coffee than roasts done in the Corretto or Gene. Dont take this as a direct Baby Roaster v Gene/Corretto, please. Its just my observation pulling shots from the same bean roasted in all 3 methods.

I then did the 2nd roast on Saturday. 200g greens again. This time I fired up the burner on a med-low heat to ease into the roast and try and get a more even roast and less burnt beans. After 5 mins on med-low I cranked up the heat till the first snaps of first crack were heard then immediately turned the burners down to low and then off again just as rolling first started. Pulled at approx 12-13mins.Post roast weight 166g, 17% weight loss.
The roast was a little more even, but darker. So its obvious that theres not enough agitation of the beans going on. I didnt cup these ones, I was just keen to get a better roast than the first.

I then did a 3rd roast on Sunday, 200g of Peru again, this time taking the drum off at 1-2 min intervals and giving it a good shake. Again ended up with quite an uneven roast and some black/burnt beans.

I havent cupped the 2nd and 3rd roasts yet, as Ive got some of the Peru thats come of age roasting in the Gene.

So, now Im thinking of putting in a small baffle or two in there to help with agitation as it seems the beans are merely sliding in the drum as opposed to tumbling in the drum. To confirm this is happening, I put 2 different amounts of greens into the drum and turned just the roaster on without the burner to see whats going on:
1. With 150g greens the drum just slipped around under the beans with no tumbling action
2. With 200g beans I got some tumbling beans but still the drum just slipped under the beans
I guess this explains the burnt spots on the beans and the burnt beans.

Before any mods are undertaken...dads keen as his a retired metal worker...
Im interested in some feedback from other baby roaster users and how their roasts are turning out, and see what you are doing.

I just cant stop the feeling of wanting to get out there and keep trying, I just wish there were more hours in the day to do so!

Ive attached pics of the first 2 roasts, taken without flash with the sun to my side.

Enough from me, at least for the moment  ;D

Cheers
Javabeen.

[borat123]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

Did you get the motorised version?

Im picking up a gas burner from bunnings this morning, then going to have a play with a borrowed demo one today. Going to run some MM through it, as they are one of the gassiest beans I could think of. I usually wait at least a week before trying them, so will be interesting to see how drinkable they are straight after roasting in the baby roaster.

[javabeen]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

Did you get the motorised version?

Yes I did Borat. Its fantastic being able to drink them straight after roasting. Ill never be caught short of beans again. But going by the cupping results, this looks like it will become my primary roaster now.

Let us know how your roast and cupping goes.

[A_M]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

Before any mods are undertaken...dads keen as his a retired metal worker...
Im interested in some feedback from other baby roaster users and how their roasts are turning out, and see what you are doing.

I just cant stop the feeling of wanting to get out there and keep trying, I just wish there were more hours in the day to do so!

So true... I have a job on today and need to finish other things... BUT  

Even the old hand units I have seen for roasting nuts back in the dark ages used baffles of sorts.

Have not  got FZ-RR 700 - but can understand the issue of volume / size / type of bean and rotational speed having a direct impact on the issue of mixing and tipping...

Beans are not all equal and neither is friction; and that is what is the driving factor, in a drum with no baffles...  A couple of copper or brass rivets etc  could be the turning point...

What I find most interesting is that using the baby roaster, or a similar process, was the conventional way of roasting at home, and the non-western world still embrace this method.  

Yep and the $25 one is very basic but in essence it is still adhering to those same basic principles of long ago..  A sealed drum, being turned over a heat source..... Less Air flow

Almost like a KKTO    When done correctly - An almost fully sealed unit, with a heat source and the beans are being agitated.....  More Air flow, but recirculated rather than lots of fresh cold air....

As  Coffee Roasters stated in their great informative posts above ( Well done - Helped me understand many of my gut feelings) the issue with many big and commercial systems is the manner and way Air is used...

While in a TO OR  Sealed drum roaster the management of AIR; is and can be quite different...

• Note: No two systems will be identical but for me is helps to explain why after the same sort of temp profile and same bean; that the KKTO VS a HT gives a result in the cup - That to me is vastly different.

I would suggest that posts 64 and 68 above by Coffee Roasters be made into stickies...

Mainly because as I read it... Very supportive of the argument and approach that great coffee comes from the artist view that 2 + 2 = 5  where 5 = great coffee.....

In fact posts 64 and 68 are the best two posts of the year; if ya ask me...

[Thundergod]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

1. With 150g greens the drum just slipped around under the beans with no tumbling action
2. With 200g beans I got some tumbling beans but still the drum just slipped under the beans

I cant remember what Mark said the maximum capacity was, but can you try 300g and see if you get more tumbling?

[>CoffeeRoasters]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

Hi Javabeen,

Your roasts actually extremely good for little experience on the roaster.

Dont be concerned too much about the eveness of the roast as it wont make a difference to the result in the cup. You can get it more even by shaking every 1-2 mins. As you are roasting with 100% conductive you have to realise that you will be giving up some eveness in the roast as the heat is being transferred mainly through the drum wall onto the uneven bean. I would strongly advise against making any modifications to the drum as it is designed this way to ensure the beans spend more time agains the surface of the drum.

It is different to air roasting that will provide a more even look as air is wrapping more of the surface of the bean. That is why it is also esential in larger roaster to have air as you cant apply enough heat through the drum wall on larger batch sizes and also roast will be extremely uneven which would not suit a commercial scenario.

Dont worry about the look, the coffee can actually even look burnt even when ground but will not taste that way. You arent sacrificing as much sugar and oils as if you were to add air to the process so a darker roast will generally retain more flavour and acidity than a darker roast in a different machine.

If you wanted a purely even roast you would need to add air but then that changes the way the heat is applied to the beans. Looks can be very deceiving in relation to taste and as you are not using this roaster to sell coffee on a commercial basis then who cares if the roast is not as even..what matters at home is the results you get with taste and aroma. My darker roasts that reach a bit into second crack generally only have a weight loss on around 15% compared to when I do in commercial roasters at around 17%. What I believe you are experiencing in the extraction is that you are capturing more of these sugars and oils that will be present sooner.

Keep trying...different profiles can produce some interesting results. It is a great learning tool if you are to ever progress to a commercial sized roaster as your senses and understanding of different elements applied in the process will improve. The fact that you have access to different roasting methods is an advantage which I would encourage...you cant learn as much by just using the one divice so experimentation with this roaster, the Behmor, Gene, I-Roast, Correttos etc will aid in you roasting development. I am actually having a play round on a Behmor and Heat Gun contraption at the moment just to try and further my understanding. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages..there is no such thing as the perfect roaster in my oppinion.

Cheers....Mark

[javabeen]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

Your roasts actually extremely good for little experience on the roaster.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the supportive words, thats one of the greatest things about the CoffeeSnobs site.

Dont be concerned too much about the eveness of the roast as it wont make a difference to the result in the cup.

Yes, this is true as I mentioned about cupping the first roast. I thought it might be quite bitter. Instead it was just so sweet that the bitterness was in the background and pleasant against the sweetness, the way that bitter-sweet chocolate is pleasant.
So anyone reading this please note that the uneven roast did not translate to a bad cup, quite the opposite in fact!

As you are roasting with 100% conductive you have to realise that you will be giving up some eveness in the roast as the heat is being transferred mainly through the drum wall onto the uneven bean. I would strongly advise against making any modifications to the drum as it is designed this way to ensure the beans spend more time agains the surface of the drum.

I will hold off against any mods for the time being, now that I understand a little more about how this roasts.
But Mark what about the beans that are not tumbling and getting their turn at contact to the surface of the drum? You know the ones that are stacked on top of the beans that are contacting the drum. I know that they eventually will get their turn at contacting the drum, but if you can improve the agitation just slightly so that more beans get to contact the surface, wont that improve the roast? Just wondering thats all.

TG,
I might throw in 300g next roast and just see what happens. Experimentation is the key with any new device I guess.

Javabeen.

[>CoffeeRoasters]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

Hey mate, just a quick shake every 1-2 minutes will change the position of the beans. I get my roasts quite even. You also get heat transfer from bean to bean and the pressurised heat from inside the drum.

The roaster is designed for 200g..I think 300g will be pushing the limits and may struggle to supply enough heat evenly but no harm in trying and would be intersted to see how you go.

Have fun...

Cheers

[Bill]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

Hi Javabeen,

I too used my Baby Roaster for the first time on the weekend. I did a few sacrificial roasts first, just to get a feel for how it roasts and how much flame I needed on the burner.

I chose some Sumatran Mandheling "Kuda Mas", as I have a large bag of it, and also because it’s a bean that I have never got very good results with in my modified popcorn machine. In the popcorn machine it would roast very unevenly, unless I stretched out the time to first crack to 9mins or more, and produced a rather bland, uninteresting coffee. For these tests I used 150g batches, so that I wouldn’t waste too much coffee while doing these test roasts (also, 2 x 150g roasts would give me around 250g roasted which is my average weekly consumption, so 150g batches would be ideal for me).

I first tried 80% heat on the burner (a GasMate brand propane camping stove) and that hit first crack at around 5mins – way too fast. Then tried 60% - first crack still around 5mins. Even with 30% heat it still got to first crack in as low as 6mins, so obviously this copper drum doesn’t need much heat input.

So what I ended up doing for my proper roasts was starting the roast with 4min on the lowest setting (there’s still considerable heat coming off that burner on the lowest setting), then increased it to 20% flame for 1min (beans were yellow by this stage), then increased it to 30% for 3mins (by which time first crack was starting), then reduced the flame to low as first crack was well underway and held it low for 2-3mins before increasing it to 30% to push it in to second crack, and dumped at the 14min mark at rolling second crack. Note that I also took the drum off and gave it a shake to mix the beans up about once every minute. This produced quite an even roast (more even then I used to get on the popcorn machine with this particular bean, surprisingly), and no scorch marks on the beans.

Tried after an hour or so and it did have some bubbles in the crema, but much less than I’d get from a popper roast with coffee this fresh. By the following day though I was getting really good pours, and I am very impressed with how good this coffee tastes. And the aroma from the beans in the hopper and while grinding is just divine!

regards,
Bill

[Bosco_Lever]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

Having done quite a number of roasts on my Baby Roaster the best advice for newcomers is:
Follow Marks advice.
Change one variable at a time.
Stick to 200g of green beans, it was designed for this amount.
If you want to season the drum, wipe inside with a paper towel, throw in 200g of beans and roast away. Every 1-2 minutes give the drum a shake. Keep the heat at high or close to it. Watch closely. At 4 mins open it up, smell and check the colour of the roasting beans. First crack will come around 8- minutes (depending on the bean), sometimes later. Drop the heat by at least 50% and let it continue to second crack. This is where you keep a close eye on the smoke and the smell. You can roast darker with no side effects, and for your first roast take it quite dark to experience what happens. Every time you open the drum you let out heat, so once you have a few roasts under your belt, try and avoid opening it too many times, unless you need to slow the roast.
Once finished, you can throw away your first roast, or try it. The drum should be clean. I went through the whole spectrum with my first roast so threw it away. Second roast onwards have all been good.
If it is windy, try a sheltered position, as this will affect the roasting time.
Smaller size roasts will speed up the roasting time so stick to 200g. I get fairly even roasts, but do not judge them by appearance, but by taste.
Stick to the one bean and play around with the flame, increasing or decreasing roast times. Taste, record, adjust and enjoy.
At the beginning, aim for first crack at 8 minutes (full heat), reduce heat by 50% and aim for second crack at 12 minutes. Taste and modify.
I have also put beans away and tried them 2 weeks post roast. The flavours mellow and develop. You will get very smooth espressos using this roaster. Lighter roasts will accentuate acidity and with some beans you want this trait to remain. However, it is ok to roast these types of beans a little darker with this unit (than with say a popcorn maker or heat gun) and still obtain fruity flavours.
Enjoy!
Stan

[Gra]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

I am actually having a play round on a Behmor and Heat Gun contraption at the moment just to try and further my understanding.

Whats with the "contraptoin" thats the Prota type of the new TO Corretto ;D ;D ;D ;D

Cheers Gra..

[sidewayss]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

After reading these baby roaster owner,s accounts of their own experiences, I,m really interested in getting one of those. Having a popper for some time now and was going to have one foot into the corretto stage, but the appeal of the manual model of the baby roaster is too tempting for me as a hands on tool to comtemplate a coretto. My feeling is, to be a CS roaster, one has to have a hands on approach, and the manual model of the FZ-RR would give a grass roots manipulation of heat adjustment, rotating - shaking, as well as smelling, seeing and hearing the bean. We are seeing a increasing interest and developing a cult following of this device because of it,s simplicity and the result of the best cup of any home roasting device, and judging by comments, even commercial machines. I,m in.


Gary

[dewy]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

Just curious, but what does the motorised version of this baby rotate at?

[>CoffeeRoasters]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

result of the best cup of any home roasting device, and judging by comments, even commercial machines

Just for the record so as not to confuse anyone or mislead anyone I didnt say it is the best roaster available only that it is a different application that is probably impossible to do on a larger scale because of the need to introduce air into the process...All roasting methods and machines have advantages and disadvantages and everyone will have an oppinion as to what they prefer. Its almost impossible to make any absolute claims on such a subjective and oppinionated product such as coffee as someone else almost surely will have a different point of view.

Like you said the simplicity, educational and hands on aspect of this devise is a plus....glad to see the interest

Cheers

[>CoffeeRoasters]

Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

Just curious, but what does the motorised version of this baby rotate at?

50 rpm