Router controller and BM motor?

[ronix55]

Just for the sake of discussion, could a router controller be used to vary the speed of a BM motor?

[Dimal]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

Just for the sake of discussion, could a router controller be used to vary the speed of a BM motor?

Sorry mate but no it cant be used.

So-called Router Controllers et al are designed and intended to control a Series Wound Commutator motor as found on 99% of portable power tools. All of the BMs Ive had a look at use a completely different design called a Capacitor Start/Run Motor. The ONLY avenue for controlling the speed of these safely, is via the use of suitably rated Variable Frequency Drives and even then, the VF Drive would have to be designed to accommodate the Capacitor Start/Run Motor. Needless to say, these devices are quite expensive.

Far better, would be to see if you can get a friendly machinist to knock up a new set of Drive Pulleys for you....

All the best,
Mal.

[beanflying]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

Other option and the safest is to change it out for a 12V DC motor if you are looking at wanting speed variation. Better Torque than 240V AC and thay handle more speed variation without the cooling issues of VF Driving 240V AC at very reduced speeds. Some options at Oatley Electronics to look at for 12V.

Play safe whatever you do.

[Dimal]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

Other option and the safest is to change it out for a 12V DC motor if you are looking at wanting speed variation. Better Torque than 240V AC and thay handle more speed variation without the cooling issues of VF Driving 240V AC at very reduced speeds. Some options at Oatley Electronics to look at for 12V.

Play safe whatever you do.

In that vein, you could probably buy a cheap 12V cordless drill or whatever and drive it with a battery charger/battery arrangement and then remote mount the trigger variable speed controller. It would only remain then to suitably mount the Drill and fix a pulley into the chuck of the drill.

Ive seen quite a few generic brand variable speed cordless drills around for quite surprisingly low prices so might be worth thinking about....

Mal.

[lindsayra]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

Hi michel c,

Pardon the lateness of this contribution but have only just become aware of this thread.
I am not sure why you want to slow the speed of the paddle rotation but I decided to do just that to increase the rate of mixing of the bean load in my Breville BB400. Discovered that an easy electric solution was not available so zeroed in on the gearing.

After observing beans mixing in the bread chamber, I was concerned that mixing may be inadequate, so fitted a new cogwheel to the paddle drive to slow its rate of rotation. This mod required moving the motor position and fitting a longer drive belt. After observation of the mixing I’m now content that mixing is adequate.

http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1276428859

Prior to setting up this BM as a Corretto, I observed a load of beans on the mixing cycle and was not satisfied that mixing was adequate. The stirring paddle was spinning so quickly it appeared to be doing no more than maintaining a beanfree cavity within its orbit.
I found a larger secondary cog on a recently deceased Sunbeam BM and preformed a transplant.
The cogged belts I had were not long enough to fit the new arrangement but was able to source one that I could make fit by moving the electric motors mounting position on the chassis.
After the mod I was satisfied with bean mixing and am now working on living happily ever after, appropriately caffeinated.

Lindsay

[Dimal]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

Excellent info Lindsay.... 8-)

Thanks mate

Mal.

[ronix55]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

First off, belated greetings folks. This is my 2nd post on CS, first one in this same thread when I asked about a router speed controller.

I have another router controller question regarding a different motor. Maybe I should have started a new thread since this question isnt about a BM motor.

I just picked up a cheap room air filter from local thrift store and it has a motor in it with 3 connecting wires; white (common), red, and black. The red & black connect to low & high on the control switch. For whatever its worth the specs from the label are; 120v, 60hz, 1.4 amp.
It is a McMillan Electric motor, model A041282475 but no results came up on their web site for this model.

So the question is, is this another motor type that cant be used with a router controller to vary the speed?

Back in the 70s I spent about 10 years as an electronic tech but I dont remember too much about motors.

Thanks in advance for any help with this.

[A_M]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

You keep talking about a router controller Yes a NEW topic..

There are many types of drives and controllers but in essence a stepper is the only type that will give you fine controll.

Forget about using  any standard ac motor and a cheap speed controll for any purpose. If you from the 70s then think of it as having found a box of Valves but your hardware has no high voltage to manage teh valve grid etc and they are are all of teh wrong gain.

Thus no matter how great the Valve/s might be... For your use / need they are as good as useless.

As to making your own router etc there is lots on the web and some great kits.

KualityMan is currently building 3 and I know that; because he keeps asking for my assistance..


A stepper motor is really the only way to go and then you have significant control and depending on the steps etc can have a super fine control, forward and reverse and be run from a low DC voltage (high current).

[ronix55]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

Yes, I referred to a router controller again because I have seen it mentioned many times as a way to control motor speed regarding bean agitation. I am not trying to build a router but trying to get an understanding of which motor types can be controlled with a router controller.

If a motor that is being considered to drive a bean agitator can be controlled in this way then it is a relatively inexpensive and easy method to do so. I read Mals reply about series wound commutator motors vs the capacitor start/run motors.

I posted my 2nd question mainly to determine if the motor in the air purifier was of the capacitor type. I assume it is but I like confirmation from someone with more knowledge than me. I would assume also that all of these AC "fan" motors would be of this type?

Since the AC motor in question is controlled by a 3-position switch (off, low, high) I assume it is switching between tapped windings within the motor and based on what Mal said I guess these types of motors cant be used with a router controller.

[ronix55]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

Hmm, I dont see a function to edit my previous post so Ill post again.

I come from Homeroasters.org and is where I used to read about using router controllers. I just got through going back through the threads that had posts relating to the RC and it seems the use relates to either heat element control or vacuum motor control (for bean cooling) and not the AC fan type motors I mentioned.

[A_M]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

Arhhhh  It now all makes a bit more sense.

1: A router controller  does not = router controller  

By that I mean that all the ones I have worked on or assisted with have been stepper motors....

2:  The level of info provided does not always provide all the detail as depending on age and maker some used very interesting methods to manage speed and size..... In addition to manufacturing costs.

I assume it is but I like confirmation from someone with more knowledge than me. I would assume also that all of these AC "fan" motors would be of this type?

Assume is the worst thing one can do... And assume that a Name of a motor and the most basic info might mean that Mal or others would know off their head is asking a bit much    

Air purifier does not equal Air purifier - lots of different types thus adds no weight to the request.

Where are you located -  120V  motor ????  

Cap Start/Run usually have a BIG cap attached to or very close to the said motor ?

At the end of the day... Read Mals first post...  

In essence... Fine Controlling an AC motor  is hard hard; without spending lots of $$$   Many other more efficient and effective methods available...

[ronix55]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

Exactly, I can assume something but it doesnt mean I will act purely on the assumption and is why I prod the folks that know.

"120V motor ????"  AS I stated in the earlier post the labeled specs are 120v, 60hz, 1.4 amp.  There is no capacitor visible on the outside of the motor housing. Heres a link to what the motor looks like (note, I am not saying this is the exact motor since McMillan didnt recognize the part number)

http://fileresource.sitepro.com/file...34244B10F2.jpg

I am just tinkering right now and when I decide to build my (cough) "professional" drum roaster I will purchase appropriate motor that is of desired rpm and torque.  I actually do have a desire to control the speed of a BM motor but not if it requires something other than a simple mod. I am about to try my hand at my own version of a BM roaster which will be a bit different than what Ive seen so far and I would prefer the agitation speed to be less but I can live with the default speed.

[A_M]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

"120V motor ????"  AS I stated in the earlier post the labeled specs are 120v, 60hz, 1.4 amp.  

Yea... 120V ????

Sorry, I only ever see 120V AC on cheep imported stuff ;D

240V all the way ;D

Sorry... The issue around teh 120V - I was attempting to identify your location etc...

Nothing in your profile and thus it can be an issue when people start to try to assist and find ya in another part of teh world....

Had a PM or two and spend hrs trying to work out a fix over 3 phase and gas supply to a roaster... Then realised they were in an area where $$ talk and standards and teh Law means nothing... Wasted many PMs and e-mails..

Outcome was - When in Roam, do as they do. Thus a few $$$ in to the local hands of those with the power to make things happen and all was ok in a day or so

[ronix55]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

Ok, there ya go.  Location is now in profile.

[beanflying]

Re: Router controller and BM motor?

With fractional HP motors without Caps the starting torque is VERY low so they are not ideally suited for things like drums etc. Normally used for fans where starting torques are low.