I-Coffee roasting experiences

[Yelta]

Where do I get a CS colour chart? Tried looking through the roasting stickies for a downloadable PDF of sorts but didn't have any luck

You will find them here chylld,
CoffeeSnobs - BeanBay - Other Stuff - Replacement membership card
Unfortunately they have been sold out for some time, not sure if Andy is going to print more.

[chylld]

Where do I get a CS colour chart? Tried looking through the roasting stickies for a downloadable PDF of sorts but didn't have any luck

Also what's the best way to get a hold of Jack @ Sorrentina? Shot him an email at Commercial non-sponsor link removed per site posting policy a few days ago but he hasn't replied yet, and their website is still down. Meanwhile I have 2 Korean sellers both confirming they are selling the new 12-step "automatical" model, one of them even has express shipping....

[jaybee]

The Peru Ceja De Selva is extremely tolerant. It's not my favourite to drink as a single origin (but many people love it) and works well in blends.

Agreed. I'm one of those that love it at CS9-10. Its an ugly roast though, but cracks loud and at the text-book times of 205 (rolling first) and 225 (start of second) degrees which makes it a great place for beginners to start and for calibrating your machine when it arrives.

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Absolutely no offence taken; I am just trying to fly head-first into this thing the 'hard way'

Do beans with little time between FC and SC have such a rapid change of state that it is extraordinarily difficult to consistently land at a certain roasting level? I'm assuming if the time is so close it becomes impossible to distinguish FC/SC, so 'thereabouts' is as good as it gets, even if you pull them abruptly?

Can you recommend a tolerant bean for a newbie to start with?

For some beans its juts that it's a little harder to hear the commencement / end of FC etc (though temperature monitoring helps). In other cases you might not actually want to land at the same roast level (e.g. I roast some beans for the Aeropress and some for Espresso...the Aeropress roasts are intentionally a little lighter). Some beans just suit different palates at slightly different roast levels too (I think my palate changes a little from summer to winter....but I could just be imagining that)

The Peru Ceja De Selva is extremely tolerant. It's not my favourite to drink as a single origin (but many people love it) and works well in blends. The Brazil PN is also pretty good to roast, though is a bit chaffy. Be careful with really small beans (Maui / some Yemens / Peaberrys) as the tend to get stuck in the little holes as the bottom the roasting chamber.

[chylld]

No worries, chylld, and I certainly didn't intend to cause you any offence. I would definitely agree that the benefits of different approaches are dependent on the beans being roasted etc (and possibly one-off variations in individual roasting machines). For example, the current Tanzania Machare seems to slip very quickly into 2nd crack and that might/might not be a bean for which you notice a difference in the effectiveness of different approaches.

Absolutely no offence taken; I am just trying to fly head-first into this thing the 'hard way'

Do beans with little time between FC and SC have such a rapid change of state that it is extraordinarily difficult to consistently land at a certain roasting level? I'm assuming if the time is so close it becomes impossible to distinguish FC/SC, so 'thereabouts' is as good as it gets, even if you pull them abruptly?

Can you recommend a tolerant bean for a newbie to start with?

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Lazy was probably the wrong word to use. "Time poor" may be better, IF the coffee can be made to taste better by reaching a higher temp and then cutting it abruptly. Perhaps some beans favour one approach over the other?

It takes time to learn how to use a machine to its full capacity rather than just use it for the functions one is already comfortable with. I will take the time to play with both methods with every bean I get because I am buying a roaster to get the most out of my coffee, and to ignore any possible advantages of the machine's built-in cycle would be an opportunity unjustifiably missed.

edit: Barry, I am not accusing you or anyone in particular here of not trying both methods. I am just observing a general trend in roasting approach over a number of pages on CS / other coffee forums/websites / youtube, and after reading about karl and jaybee's success, am keen to put this to the test first-hand

No worries, chylld, and I certainly didn't intend to cause you any offence. I would definitely agree that the benefits of different approaches are dependent on the beans being roasted etc (and possibly one-off variations in individual roasting machines). For example, the current Tanzania Machare seems to slip very quickly into 2nd crack and that might/might not be a bean for which you notice a difference in the effectiveness of different approaches.

[chylld]

In which case, have the grace to avoid describing the behaviour of experienced roasters / i-coffee users as crazy. And have the grace to avoid describing them as exhibiting laziness (particularly when they made clear that they've taken the time to try both approaches). Neither term were necessary (or based in fact) and to later describe your posts as simply offering 'an outside perspective' borders on the disingenuous. There's no problem with offering your thoughts..that's great....it's just a a good idea to be a touch more careful with the way you describe other people (most of whom will have a lot more experience with roasting and with the first generation i-coffee than you do).

Lazy was probably the wrong word to use. "Time poor" may be better, IF the coffee can be made to taste better by reaching a higher temp and then cutting it abruptly. Perhaps some beans favour one approach over the other?

It takes time to learn how to use a machine to its full capacity rather than just use it for the functions one is already comfortable with. I will take the time to play with both methods with every bean I get because I am buying a roaster to get the most out of my coffee, and to ignore any possible advantages of the machine's built-in cycle would be an opportunity unjustifiably missed.

edit: Barry, I am not accusing you or anyone in particular here of not trying both methods. I am just observing a general trend in roasting approach over a number of pages on CS / other coffee forums/websites / youtube, and after reading about karl and jaybee's success, am keen to put this to the test first-hand

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

My thinking was exactly that there is an obvious benefit to stopping the roast at the exact time that you want. However:



suggests that after putting in the effort to learn how to use the machine as it was intended, they received excellent results, made me think "well, duh?"

The existence of a fan accessory does not imply that it is compulsory to achieve an excellent end result. Same as a car that can be bought with an optional spoiler. It is there to satisfy a market, not necessarily to account for a deficiency in the original product.

Keep in mind that this is my impression as a roaster newbie, I'm offering you an outside perspective and if you don't want any of it, then that's your loss.

In which case, have the grace to avoid describing the behaviour of experienced roasters / i-coffee users as crazy. And have the grace to avoid describing them as exhibiting laziness (particularly when they made clear that they've taken the time to try both approaches). Neither term were necessary (or based in fact) and to later describe your posts as simply offering 'an outside perspective' borders on the disingenuous. There's no problem with offering your thoughts..that's great....it's just a a good idea to be a touch more careful with the way you describe other people (most of whom will have a lot more experience with roasting and with the first generation i-coffee than you do).

[chylld]

My thinking was exactly that there is an obvious benefit to stopping the roast at the exact time that you want. However:

Jaybee let the roast run for the entire cycle with good results. So I tried it myself... they were possibly the best tasting roast I have done. The shot was very thick and tasted beautiful.

suggests that after putting in the effort to learn how to use the machine as it was intended, they received excellent results, made me think "well, duh?"

The existence of a fan accessory does not imply that it is compulsory to achieve an excellent end result. Same as a car that can be bought with an optional spoiler. It is there to satisfy a market, not necessarily to account for a deficiency in the original product.

Keep in mind that this is my impression as a roaster newbie, I'm offering you an outside perspective and if you don't want any of it, then that's your loss.

Jaybee I look forward to your blind taste test Will be interesting to see if there are any noticeable additional flavours unlocked by that extra 13C!

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

I figured you guys were doing it for a reason... but is that reason laziness? i.e. not taking the time to figure out what machine setting ends up at the same roast level?

Obviously, yanking the beans at the exact desired moment and then rapidly cooling them will achieve a consistent result, but from a layman's point of view it looks like you guys don't trust any machine (no matter how intelligently programmed) and by default always try to do it the old-fashioned way.

Laziness? I've tried both methods which is absolutely clear from my post....how could that be laziness?

If users used the i-coffee only according to the manual, many purchasers of the first gen. i-coffee wouldn't have had a functional machine, because many machines would automatically switch off if you didn't wind the dial back to zero immediately after starting! Secondly the i-coffee was sold (in many instances) with its own 'i-coffee' branded external bean cooler, and IIRC the instruction manual (lost it) listed this as one of the cooling options. Also, the importer (Jack, who was always very helpful) advised the use of an external bean cooler. Added to that the fact that many of the first generation of i-coffees gradually extended their roasting times (and mine longer works effectively)....can you not see why users might try different methods in pursuit of a superior result?

[Stuffa]

I figured you guys were doing it for a reason... but is that reason laziness? i.e. not taking the time to figure out what machine setting ends up at the same roast level?

Obviously, yanking the beans at the exact desired moment and then rapidly cooling them will achieve a consistent result, but from a layman's point of view it looks like you guys don't trust any machine (no matter how intelligently programmed) and by default always try to do it the old-fashioned way.

Hey chylid, with respect pull your head in mate. To imply that we are all lazy and should be roasting the way you think the manufacturer intended is garbage. Barry stated why the machine has a cooling cycle built in. The company sell a separate cooler to compliment the machine for that very reason so you can pull the beans at the right moment and cool rapidly. This is the excepted method of most roasters to get the best out of the bean (cool rapidly). Having said that I'm not saying that you can't get a good roast by getting the right setting on the roaster and letting it finish it's cycle. In the end roast the way you want to.

[jaybee]

So, to put straight the fact that in over two years of this thread running, nobody has used in anger the iCoffee as it has been designed, here goes

After a kg of beans and 5 hours of bench time (including lots of cool-down time to keep things even!) I have produced a pair of roasts that are to all intents and purposes identical! On the left, iCoffee setting 6, on the right, manually dumped on reaching 226 degrees.

The victim was 150g of Brazilian Yellow Bourbon and the iCoffee temperature setting was 1/4 turn anticlockwise from max resistance for both roasts which is fair as it runs a little cool for manual and a little hot for auto!

Temperature curves and pics included. Now waiting for a few days before the first taste test...

[chylld]

With respect, Chylld, (god, I sound like an aggitated mum) this is not an appropriate analogy. The built in cooling cycle is primary designed for convenience, not necessarily to maximise the quality of the roast under all circumstances. And, yeh....it does work quite well in many cases. But in my experience I got better results using a rapid bean cooler, particularly when I was intentionally roasting a bean darker.

I figured you guys were doing it for a reason... but is that reason laziness? i.e. not taking the time to figure out what machine setting ends up at the same roast level?

Obviously, yanking the beans at the exact desired moment and then rapidly cooling them will achieve a consistent result, but from a layman's point of view it looks like you guys don't trust any machine (no matter how intelligently programmed) and by default always try to do it the old-fashioned way.

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

I intend to make the most of mine using this method too, i.e. the way it was built. I'm a roasting newbie but it seems crazy to me that all the CSers want to stop the machine working the way it was designed and instead judge it by their old techniques... at least that's the impression I get from this thread and the handful of youtube videos out there.

It's like bringing your own sauce to a burger joint, and rating how it tastes with your sauce. Never mind the fact that someone in the kitchen has delicately balanced the flavours in the burger....

With respect, Chylld, (god, I sound like an aggitated mum) this is not an appropriate analogy. The built in cooling cycle is primary designed for convenience, not necessarily to maximise the quality of the roast under all circumstances. And, yeh....it does work quite well in many cases. But in my experience I got better results using a rapid bean cooler, particularly when I was intentionally roasting a bean darker.

[jaybee]

It's like bringing your own sauce to a burger joint, and rating how it tastes with your sauce. Never mind the fact that someone in the kitchen has delicately balanced the flavours in the burger....

Great line, and very true

You will love the new roaster, and it's worth getting it from Jack just to have the local support (and the fact that he's a jolly decent fellow)