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  • Diedrich, Giesen or Probat?

    Hello everyone ,

    I'm planning on starting a small business, where I can sell some roasted coffee and test the market here. I have no customer base, planning on selling for local shops and individuals for a start.

    I'm in between Probat, diedrich and giesen.

    The offers I got:

    Diedrich IR-1 = $12,000
    Diedrich IR-2.5= $18,000 or probably a bit more.

    Giesen W1 (1.5k)= $16,800
    Giesen W6 = $22,800

    Probatino= $14,400
    Probat 5k= $22,800 (Which is A lot for me now! but I think it will be a more reasonable choice than the IR-2.5 since the price gap is not that high)

    I was going for a 1K, but then I got worried that I will need more even for a mico business, and will cost me more in the future but I'm not sure.

    However, the price gap is huge between the 1k and the others, and the shipping to middle east would cost me a lot too.

    Please help me decide which volume to start with for a small business, and which brand.

    Thank you all !
    Last edited by Sarah26; 5 January 2015, 05:39 AM.

  • #2
    Welcome to CS.

    You said "middle east", in which case I dont know why you are not considering any of the Turkish brands, which will do the job admirably for a micro roastery EG the Toper Cafemino is in your size, works well, and is far far better priced.

    For the rest of it. My personal view is that atleast one of the three you mentioned is one of these "internet manufactured" icons, the kind where anonymous internet posters talk brands and models up and around and into the stratosphere and turn them into icons and recognized names, despite that no one can check their bonafides (those that talk up the brands). Its very expensive for what it is.

    The other two, while they are very long and well established, quality roaster brands, are now I think trading on their past (meaning, there are others that have caught up in the quality stakes and possibly even surpassed them and will be better priced).

    Honestly for such a small start up size, where you say you are testing the waters, I dont know why you would zero in on the most expensive of brands, and it should be possible to purchase a (for example) Cafemino for around half the price of anything you have been quoted, for a roaster that will still do the job very well for you.

    All that said, no one can answer what size of roaster to buy and what brand. You need to do the research that is applicable to your situation, and no one else can do it for you. That means you need to contact the manufacturers themselves and or their agents local to your area, and go see them and get referrals to their happy clients so you can ask them plenty of questions and see if they will suit you.

    Regardless, I woudnt worry about going to the european brands/better technology until you have finished testing the waters and know what your next step needs to be. Having expensive, latest technology roasting equipment becomes more important when you get up to the bigger sizes.

    Also consider that you will be able to buy a 5 kg Turkish roaster for less than the prices you are being quoted for 1 kg machines above.....Not that I am saying you should buy one straight up as I dont know anything about your situation other than you have mentioned in the above post. You need to do your homework, and really, do the major part of it off the key board by talking to manufacturers and their agents and actual users of their equipment.

    Hope that helps.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Sarah,

      Even for a start up business anything less than a 5kg becomes relatively very expensive by the time you have completed the

      shipping and installation.

      Managing batch to batch consistency on small roasters is also a challenge for beginners (and some others that I know); if your business is moderately successful

      you will outgrow a bench top roaster's capacity very quickly.

      Don't forget that you will need to allocate time for marketing, packaging, sourcing your inputs, cupping and selecting green beans,

      networking, deliveries, office work and destoning. A small roaster will simply keep you tied to the machine for too many hours per week.

      Further to TOK's excellent comments above, make yourself familiar with how each type of roaster works; how does it heat the beans,

      is the drum perforated, is the burner train efficient, is the roaster insulated, is the drum carbon or stainless steel, what type of of airflow

      control does it have, are there any cast iron components, how easy is it to service, pull apart and clean and what is the build quality like?

      A lot of this can be gleaned from technical manuals and pdf's, if you can understand manufacturer's double speak but nothing beats

      going out and talking to other roasters and seeing how different machines perform. +1 to TOK's advice!

      There will be little to no difference in roast quality between all of the reputable brands, just different paths to get the end result and different purchase, set up

      and running costs.

      Why consider a Diedrich, given your location? They are made in the US and you're paying for a lot of non core expenses to get one into your roastery.

      TOK's suggestion of a 'Turkish' roaster is spot on, I would also add Has Garanti roasters to his suggestion.
      Last edited by chokkidog; 5 January 2015, 10:31 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        TOK,

        Thank you so much for your reply. That was very helpful and you're absolutely right on that. The thing is, the more I read about a certain roaster the more I change my mind. Not many roasters in my country so going around and asking experts is kind of out of my list. they rely on big brands here like starbucks, nothing local.

        I have a friend who's a trainer at Toby's estate, Sydney. Also recommended Toper but some people started telling me that it's not the right choice to start with and so many other brands are getting way better so it wouldn't be the smartest choice. And after going to SCAA event and met the roasters (Giesen, Diedrich and Probat) and people started talking on how those 3 are the far best in the market. But after reading your post, I think I got myself sway and blindly believe some opinions. and you're right about the "internet manufactured icons", I had the same feeling but then I thought oh well what do I know.

        However, I'm gonna explore more and do my homework as you said. Thank you, that was helpful

        Comment


        • #5
          chokkidog,

          May thanks for your post Just a while a go I was writing everything down and realised that a 1kg is definitely the wrong choice. and that that you've mentioned all the other stuff I will be doing, and I thought the price was insane. I'm kind of a newbie to roasting, thank you so much for you suggestion and I just wrote down the important things that need to be checked prior buying a roaster. Thanks again !

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi and thanks for your thank you. It doesnt always happen in these pages !

            Some more thoughts as a result of your reply.

            Re: "Toper (or other Turkish brands)...some people started telling me that it's not the right choice to start with and so many other brands are getting way better so it wouldn't be the smartest choice".

            a) you're in the middle east, so it as local as you're gonna get ! And "way better" at what? Possibly roast monitor or control software. Supplying variable speed motors and fans? Way better at roasting? These guys have been around for a long time, and actually the result is up to the operator as long as the equipment is set up properly in the first place.
            b) very experienced, selling all over the world especially developing countries, where price may ceratinly be huge factor, but....they (turkish roasters) work and reasonably well ! Just not as well finished externally as others but are improving all the time. Weakest point, probably the gas train, up to you to make sure you ask for the best possible for your country.
            c) Contrary to what you appear to have been told, I would start with simpler, lower technology equyipment that is known to work, and up grade the technology later as you grow. Therefore, I say turkish (Toper, whoever) is the right choice for a total novice to start...start with simple "old school" technology that will get you going and over a period, have you understanding what you are doing and how you will want to upgrade later...

            d) Re "...people started talking on how those 3 are the far best in the market...."...beware "talking heads" syndrome. Its the same as reading reviews on the net. Everyone's an expert. Who are they? What are their bonafides? Do they have a reason for recomending certain equipment over others? Do they have any real experience or are they "experts of 1" (I've only ever used a brand X and its the best". What does that really mean).

            There are a miriad of emerging manufacturers (Asian countries), however your location suggests your closest manufacturers are in Turkey and these guys have a lot of experience. Suggest you call atleast Toper and Has Garante for a start and see where that leads you.

            Weigh up your budgetary options. EG. If a 1 kg turkish roaster costs say at a (educated) guess...$4000.00 US, and a 5 kg costs say.....$10,000.00 US (ex factory), and you would have paid say...$14000.00 for a 1 kg in one of the brands you originally mentioned (assuming that is also ex factory ie before all the on costs of fitment and set up), what does that lead you to consider, given that if you buy a 1 kg straight up and you are successful, you will then want to upgrade to a larger size.....?


            Hope that helps.

            Comment


            • #7
              Good luck with your research! Sounds like you could be in a market that's ripe for picking.

              When reading bull and dust on the interweb always check the date of publication. With the world wide growth

              in roasting, across all sizes of production, reading comments that are less than 1-2 years old may not contain

              up to date and/or relevant facts.

              Have a read through this thread, especially the last couple of pages...........http://coffeesnobs.com.au/roasters/2...on-thread.html

              Some of the most successful coffees in Australian roasting comps have been roasted with Turkish style roasters.

              Keep us posted!

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks a lot for your helpful comments !

                I contacted Joper, Has Granari and Toper. I was surprised that toper 5kg costs $16,800. He offered "Profile system touch screen" free till the beginning of Feb.

                Honestly I was expecting a much cheaper price.

                Joper was very expensive almost same as probat. and haven't heard from has granati yet.

                I know some people say that the profiling option isn't that necessary for a start but I think it's essential if you want to keep a consistent profile. what do you think?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hello Sarah, you havent said if the (presume USD) $16,800.00 is ex factory Izmir, or includes delivery to you, or includes delivery and installation and set up, extras over and above the roaster itself (eg chimney sections), agents commissions etc etc etc etc., but there is no need to explain as that will be pertinent to your individual situation/location etc.

                  When I bought my 5 kg Toper around 5 years ago it was roughly 10 thou US ex factory Izmir, and by the time it was all set up in my roasterie half way around the world it was significantly more than that... Had I optioned the extra "roast profiling" system at the time, it was going to cost an extra $5000.00 and I decided against it. It is (was) more than a roast monitoring system, as it included controls that allowed the roaster to "automatically" follow a previously saved roast profile. I tested the system at their factory beforehand and it worked very well.... ie you roast coffee however you want and save the profile, and you can call it up later and the machine will repeat the same profile quite accurately.

                  But 5 years is a long enough time and I dont know how things have changed in the meantime.

                  A roast profiling system will certainly help you to get repeatability BUT.....you need to have worked out your roast profiles first for the machine to be able to copy them.....that is, dont put the cart before the horse ! And.....most newcomers dont realise, there is no such thing as, and the machines dont come with, "default" roast profiles. You have to work them out, save them for future use, so the machine can copy them....note the machine will faithfully reproduce your saved profiles irrespective of whether they are any good or not, so you need to develop expertise beforehand.

                  Additionally, in terms of equipment pricing, I would expect that over time the cost of manufacture of the equipment and consequent selling prices will have gone up, while the cost of the software will have come down. By how much and how that affects anyones buy price, I have no idea.

                  Hope that helps.
                  Last edited by TOK; 14 January 2015, 09:21 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Sarah, TOK has pretty much covered everything.

                    So that you can make an informed choice.........

                    There are a few 'open source' and retail roast monitor software packages available which offer profile / template development,

                    manual roast management tools, multiple input data logging and roast history.

                    You will need a PC or Mac and a data logger with a thermocouple. Lots of roasters just buy or scrounge a second hand computer for the job.

                    CoffeeSnobs, through Andy's generosity and hard work has it's own software package (best run on PC unless you're a computer whizz) but

                    you will need the specific data logger that goes with it. CS software is here:

                    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/home-roast...-software.html

                    Here is a google page with some links to 'Artisan', 'Cropster' and some others:

                    https://www.google.com.au/search?cli...EaTu8wfdhoLQBA

                    Getting around the traps, as far as smaller roasters go..... third party roast profiling/monitoring software is overwhelmingly more popular

                    than PLC/touchscreen ( it's cheaper and more 'hands on' while still achieving consistent repeatable roasts )..... but that's up to you.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Sarah

                      You post mentioned "I'm kind of a newbie to roasting, ...."
                      Given the amount of $ that you are considering it would be prudent to first start roasting with a small home roaster and supplying roasted beans to friends in order to develop your roast and cupping skills, to get feedback on your roasts and to develop your own blends and profiles. If you can get some time working in a roastery (even for free) that would open up a world of experience for you. It would show you all the other aspects of commercial roasting, many of which have been mentioned above.

                      Mike

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I can't thank you all enough for your cooperation

                        I contacted Toper again, for some reason he gave me the price of TKMSX series instead of TKM-X series. After clarification, the price went down to $11,800 + $1000 shipment. it does not include installation. commercial link removed per site posting policy

                        That seams more reasonable. The softwares and equipment you suggested seemed to be popular and a better choice than Toper's.

                        To answer you Mike, I intend to hire a roast master for a while, I already met one and he's willing to work with me. That's why I'm struggling to buy the roaster.

                        If you've visited the link I posted, do you think TKM-X 5 would be a good choice? I know I asked you a lot. I'm just not familiar with the technical spec. so I'm a bit afraid when it comes to buying my essential machine. That's why I need an expert's opinion.

                        Thank you again for your help !
                        Last edited by Javaphile; 16 January 2015, 09:49 AM. Reason: Commercial link(s) removed

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sarah26 View Post
                          I intend to hire a roast master for a while, I already met one and he's willing to work with me.
                          Hi Sarah
                          If you intend to work with a roaster master, at least for a while, might it be worth approaching him for his input on roaster choice?
                          While similar in many ways, roasters are have quite different dynamics - if he has mastered his roasting on a certain style of machine, you may get better results straight up with some input from him, and learn more quickly yourself. With a new new style of machine for both of you, the journey may be a little more bumpy

                          Cheers Matt

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sarah26 View Post

                            I contacted Toper again, for some reason he gave me the price of TKMSX series instead of TKM-X series. After clarification, the price went down to $11,800 + $1000 shipment. it does not include installation. commercial link removed per site posting policy
                            If I was buying a roaster from Toper I would definitely ignore the TKM-X series and go for the TKM-SX instead. The SX has 4 motors, rather than just 3, which makes it possible to start roasting one batch while your last batch is cooling. This speeds things up quite a bit and with a 5kg roaster I can only assume that you will need to roast quite a few batches back-to-back to generate enough revenue to keep the operation going.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Matt,

                              Thanks for commenting. Well things are a bit unsettled with the roaster master as we're finding some issues with the visa and so on, so there might be a possibility that I work with a different person so I wouldn't want to rely on his opinion. however he said he likes working with probat wich is expensive to me, and didn't like working with Diedrich which I understand why. So I came here to get some help choosing a reliable roaster from the experts I did not want to regret choosing a roaster rather than another just because I bought what the salesman was selling. I wanted an expert's opinion to at least set me on a certain ground

                              Comment

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