Diedrich, Giesen or Probat?

[TC]

As an aside..... I have yet to meet a 'roastmaster'... everyone I know tell me they are still on 'the learning curve'. ;-)

Agreed chokki,

Anyone who thinks that they know everything about anything is closed to learning- in which case, they should have left long ago.

[chokkidog]

Hi Sarah,

I didn't realise that Toper still made 3 motor machines, Vinitasse is correct..... purchase a 4 motor roaster.

For me, personally, I would buy a Has Garanti; ( vested interest... I own one! ) ...2/3 the price of a Probat ....and for other reasons already mentioned in previous posts.

Probats are also noisy; good roasters but not the only one in the market.

The build quality of the HG is fantastic.

Make sure you can get the best quality and most suitable electrics and gas train fittings available at your point of sale,

particular to your country of operation's legal requirements.

Here in Australia we enjoy the amazing expertise of Mark Beattie, of Coffee Roasters Australia,

https://www.coffeeroasters.com.au , our local Aussie importer of HG's and CS site sponsor. Did you read the Has Garanti thread linked above?

For the price difference between an HG and a Probat you could come to Australia for a week and do one of Mark's roasting courses??? :-D

As an aside..... I have yet to meet a 'roastmaster'... everyone I know tell me they are still on 'the learning curve'. ;-)

[Sarah26]

That's exactly what I'd like to know before buying. I really don't know much when it comes to techs. which metal or what motors. Looking at the price and brand I thought that would be a safe choice. but thank you for clarifying some things for me!

[Sarah26]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for commenting. Well things are a bit unsettled with the roaster master as we're finding some issues with the visa and so on, so there might be a possibility that I work with a different person so I wouldn't want to rely on his opinion. however he said he likes working with probat wich is expensive to me, and didn't like working with Diedrich which I understand why. So I came here to get some help choosing a reliable roaster from the experts I did not want to regret choosing a roaster rather than another just because I bought what the salesman was selling. I wanted an expert's opinion to at least set me on a certain ground

[Vinitasse]

I contacted Toper again, for some reason he gave me the price of TKMSX series instead of TKM-X series. After clarification, the price went down to $11,800 + $1000 shipment. it does not include installation. commercial link removed per site posting policy

If I was buying a roaster from Toper I would definitely ignore the TKM-X series and go for the TKM-SX instead. The SX has 4 motors, rather than just 3, which makes it possible to start roasting one batch while your last batch is cooling. This speeds things up quite a bit and with a 5kg roaster I can only assume that you will need to roast quite a few batches back-to-back to generate enough revenue to keep the operation going.

[DesigningByCoffee]

I intend to hire a roast master for a while, I already met one and he's willing to work with me.

Hi Sarah
If you intend to work with a roaster master, at least for a while, might it be worth approaching him for his input on roaster choice?
While similar in many ways, roasters are have quite different dynamics - if he has mastered his roasting on a certain style of machine, you may get better results straight up with some input from him, and learn more quickly yourself. With a new new style of machine for both of you, the journey may be a little more bumpy

Cheers Matt

[Sarah26]

I can't thank you all enough for your cooperation

I contacted Toper again, for some reason he gave me the price of TKMSX series instead of TKM-X series. After clarification, the price went down to $11,800 + $1000 shipment. it does not include installation. commercial link removed per site posting policy

That seams more reasonable. The softwares and equipment you suggested seemed to be popular and a better choice than Toper's.

To answer you Mike, I intend to hire a roast master for a while, I already met one and he's willing to work with me. That's why I'm struggling to buy the roaster.

If you've visited the link I posted, do you think TKM-X 5 would be a good choice? I know I asked you a lot. I'm just not familiar with the technical spec. so I'm a bit afraid when it comes to buying my essential machine. That's why I need an expert's opinion.

Thank you again for your help !

[speleomike]

Hi Sarah

You post mentioned "I'm kind of a newbie to roasting, ...."
Given the amount of $ that you are considering it would be prudent to first start roasting with a small home roaster and supplying roasted beans to friends in order to develop your roast and cupping skills, to get feedback on your roasts and to develop your own blends and profiles. If you can get some time working in a roastery (even for free) that would open up a world of experience for you. It would show you all the other aspects of commercial roasting, many of which have been mentioned above.

Mike

[chokkidog]

Hi Sarah, TOK has pretty much covered everything.

So that you can make an informed choice.........

There are a few 'open source' and retail roast monitor software packages available which offer profile / template development,

manual roast management tools, multiple input data logging and roast history.

You will need a PC or Mac and a data logger with a thermocouple. Lots of roasters just buy or scrounge a second hand computer for the job.

CoffeeSnobs, through Andy's generosity and hard work has it's own software package (best run on PC unless you're a computer whizz) but

you will need the specific data logger that goes with it. CS software is here:

http://coffeesnobs.com.au/home-roast...-software.html

Here is a google page with some links to 'Artisan', 'Cropster' and some others:

https://www.google.com.au/search?cli...EaTu8wfdhoLQBA

Getting around the traps, as far as smaller roasters go..... third party roast profiling/monitoring software is overwhelmingly more popular

than PLC/touchscreen ( it's cheaper and more 'hands on' while still achieving consistent repeatable roasts )..... but that's up to you.

[TOK]

Hello Sarah, you havent said if the (presume USD) $16,800.00 is ex factory Izmir, or includes delivery to you, or includes delivery and installation and set up, extras over and above the roaster itself (eg chimney sections), agents commissions etc etc etc etc., but there is no need to explain as that will be pertinent to your individual situation/location etc.

When I bought my 5 kg Toper around 5 years ago it was roughly 10 thou US ex factory Izmir, and by the time it was all set up in my roasterie half way around the world it was significantly more than that... Had I optioned the extra "roast profiling" system at the time, it was going to cost an extra $5000.00 and I decided against it. It is (was) more than a roast monitoring system, as it included controls that allowed the roaster to "automatically" follow a previously saved roast profile. I tested the system at their factory beforehand and it worked very well.... ie you roast coffee however you want and save the profile, and you can call it up later and the machine will repeat the same profile quite accurately.

But 5 years is a long enough time and I dont know how things have changed in the meantime.

A roast profiling system will certainly help you to get repeatability BUT.....you need to have worked out your roast profiles first for the machine to be able to copy them.....that is, dont put the cart before the horse ! And.....most newcomers dont realise, there is no such thing as, and the machines dont come with, "default" roast profiles. You have to work them out, save them for future use, so the machine can copy them....note the machine will faithfully reproduce your saved profiles irrespective of whether they are any good or not, so you need to develop expertise beforehand.

Additionally, in terms of equipment pricing, I would expect that over time the cost of manufacture of the equipment and consequent selling prices will have gone up, while the cost of the software will have come down. By how much and how that affects anyones buy price, I have no idea.

Hope that helps.

[Sarah26]

Thanks a lot for your helpful comments !

I contacted Joper, Has Granari and Toper. I was surprised that toper 5kg costs $16,800. He offered "Profile system touch screen" free till the beginning of Feb.

Honestly I was expecting a much cheaper price.

Joper was very expensive almost same as probat. and haven't heard from has granati yet.

I know some people say that the profiling option isn't that necessary for a start but I think it's essential if you want to keep a consistent profile. what do you think?

[chokkidog]

Good luck with your research! Sounds like you could be in a market that's ripe for picking.

When reading bull and dust on the interweb always check the date of publication. With the world wide growth

in roasting, across all sizes of production, reading comments that are less than 1-2 years old may not contain

up to date and/or relevant facts.

Have a read through this thread, especially the last couple of pages...........http://coffeesnobs.com.au/roasters/2...on-thread.html

Some of the most successful coffees in Australian roasting comps have been roasted with Turkish style roasters.

Keep us posted!

[TOK]

Hi and thanks for your thank you. It doesnt always happen in these pages !

Some more thoughts as a result of your reply.

Re: "Toper (or other Turkish brands)...some people started telling me that it's not the right choice to start with and so many other brands are getting way better so it wouldn't be the smartest choice".

a) you're in the middle east, so it as local as you're gonna get ! And "way better" at what? Possibly roast monitor or control software. Supplying variable speed motors and fans? Way better at roasting? These guys have been around for a long time, and actually the result is up to the operator as long as the equipment is set up properly in the first place.
b) very experienced, selling all over the world especially developing countries, where price may ceratinly be huge factor, but....they (turkish roasters) work and reasonably well ! Just not as well finished externally as others but are improving all the time. Weakest point, probably the gas train, up to you to make sure you ask for the best possible for your country.
c) Contrary to what you appear to have been told, I would start with simpler, lower technology equyipment that is known to work, and up grade the technology later as you grow. Therefore, I say turkish (Toper, whoever) is the right choice for a total novice to start...start with simple "old school" technology that will get you going and over a period, have you understanding what you are doing and how you will want to upgrade later...

d) Re "...people started talking on how those 3 are the far best in the market...."...beware "talking heads" syndrome. Its the same as reading reviews on the net. Everyone's an expert. Who are they? What are their bonafides? Do they have a reason for recomending certain equipment over others? Do they have any real experience or are they "experts of 1" (I've only ever used a brand X and its the best". What does that really mean).

There are a miriad of emerging manufacturers (Asian countries), however your location suggests your closest manufacturers are in Turkey and these guys have a lot of experience. Suggest you call atleast Toper and Has Garante for a start and see where that leads you.

Weigh up your budgetary options. EG. If a 1 kg turkish roaster costs say at a (educated) guess...$4000.00 US, and a 5 kg costs say.....$10,000.00 US (ex factory), and you would have paid say...$14000.00 for a 1 kg in one of the brands you originally mentioned (assuming that is also ex factory ie before all the on costs of fitment and set up), what does that lead you to consider, given that if you buy a 1 kg straight up and you are successful, you will then want to upgrade to a larger size.....?


Hope that helps.

[Sarah26]

chokkidog,

May thanks for your post Just a while a go I was writing everything down and realised that a 1kg is definitely the wrong choice. and that that you've mentioned all the other stuff I will be doing, and I thought the price was insane. I'm kind of a newbie to roasting, thank you so much for you suggestion and I just wrote down the important things that need to be checked prior buying a roaster. Thanks again !

[Sarah26]

TOK,

Thank you so much for your reply. That was very helpful and you're absolutely right on that. The thing is, the more I read about a certain roaster the more I change my mind. Not many roasters in my country so going around and asking experts is kind of out of my list. they rely on big brands here like starbucks, nothing local.

I have a friend who's a trainer at Toby's estate, Sydney. Also recommended Toper but some people started telling me that it's not the right choice to start with and so many other brands are getting way better so it wouldn't be the smartest choice. And after going to SCAA event and met the roasters (Giesen, Diedrich and Probat) and people started talking on how those 3 are the far best in the market. But after reading your post, I think I got myself sway and blindly believe some opinions. and you're right about the "internet manufactured icons", I had the same feeling but then I thought oh well what do I know.

However, I'm gonna explore more and do my homework as you said. Thank you, that was helpful