Hottop B or P

[Dennis]

Re: Hottop B or P

All very interesting Greg.

My understanding is that roasters that follow a programmed profile basically switch on and off. In other words, on when the temperature drops to a certain point below the desired gradient, and off when the temperature is higher than the gradient. So if you were to look at a graph of the profile in detail, it would have a saw-tooth pattern.

Is that a fair assumption?

[pullman]

Re: Hottop B or P

Continued...

What I reckon the P can do is u can enter a temperature that u want at a particular time. Let say if u want the first min at 100 degree and the 3rd mins the temp is at 160 degree and so on. Can the "B" do that as well? Or u have to manually do that with the "B"?

Yeah thats the way the P works but of course there are physical limitations to how quickly it can heat! The B is different - you would manually adjust the heat/fan settings to bring it to the temp you want at the time you want. So with the P you program upfront the temperature points you want it to achieve at particular times of the roast (as well as the fan speed for each segment) and let the controller control the power to achieve that. With the B you adjust the heater and fan settings as you go such that it reaches the points you want.

I guess another way to look at it would be this. With the B youd work out upfront what profile you want to achieve and the key temperature points along the way (you could even graph it if you were really keen!). Then, with your experience of the roasters thermodynamics (or the advice of a helpful vendor ) adjust the heater power / fan to achieve that. With the P you would enter that graph directly nto the controller rather than have on paper, and youd then let the controller adjust the power to follow that profile.

Greg

[pullman]

Re: Hottop B or P

What I really want is the consistancy of my roast. Im currently using IMex. However, I found it is very hard to get consistance roast.Let say if I want the FC happened at 10mins and the SC come 5mins after the FC. Which model is suitable for me?I reckon I might go for the "B" now. Cos it cost less and its also programmable.

The Hottop B and P (and Gene) can all do that, each in slightly different ways, but in all cases youll have to do it by trial and error to a degree as it will depend on the bean. That is, for a given bean youll need to do a roast, note whether FC and SC come when you want, too early or too late and adjust the parameters to suit next time. I havent used an Imex so I cant say for certain why you wouldnt be getting consistent results, but I do know the results from any of these roasters are generally very good and very consistent.

With the Hottop B, youd keep the heater at 100% for the first 5-6 minutes of the roast and then start to back it off and bring in a bit of fan at the same time. If you wanted FC after 10 minutes youd probably want to keep the power a bit higher than we did in the roast on the Things Coffee Knowledge Base as that gave us FC after 13 minutes; so using that roast as a starting point youd probably keep the power at 100% until you hit about 150 C. To get 5 minutes to second crack, youd have to back the power off just before FC (about 185-190C) and keep a slow ramp to SC as we did in that test roast. Keep notes of the temperatures and where you made the changes; if it worked save the profile for next time, otherwise try again with some appropriate adjustments.

With the P, youd make a profile with the temperature set to maximum for the first five segments for two minutes each and you should get FC by about that point (theroetically, Ive never tried hitting FC that soon but if the B can do it the P can too). Youd then make segment 6 several degrees higher for two minutes and segment 7 a few more degrees higher for three minutes. You wouldnt need segment 8 for this program so youd just set it to 0 time. Again, monitor the crack times and adjust the program as necessary. The good thing about the P controller is that you can copy and paste the program to another memory location and tweak it seeing what youre doing upfront.

I havent used the Gene as much so Ill let others comment on those, however Id be guessing something like 230C until about a minute after the start of FC, and then ramp it up to about 236 and hopefully youll hit second about 5 minutes after the start of first.

CAn i ask sth about the "B". Once uve got the programe right, than u can use that program to roast again again and again. Does that mean it can provide a more consistance roast compare to the IMex?

Yep, you have the program saved to a memory location and then you can reuse it whenever you want. You just have to be careful not to overwrite it with another program because you dont get any warning if you try. This operation was shown right at the end of the B video clip. What this does is allow you to reuse exactly the same settings in subsequent roasts which normally translates into consistency, however there are other factors that determine the exact results such as bean mass, ambient temperature and so on.

Also, uve mentioned about "Before you start the roast, you enter simply a total roast time and target temperature and start the roast." what does that mean? Is that mean once uve entered 20mins at 211degree, the roast will finish in 20mins at 211 degree? Im confused about the target temperature.

No; it is a bit confusing in that way because the same terminology is used across all controllers but it has the least amount of relevance on the B controller. Thats more the way it would work on the P controller, but with the B the target time and temperature are really trigger points for the end of the roast. Using your example, it would mean that once the roast reaches 20 minutes or 211 degrees it will be automatically ejected. Its probably more accurate to describe these as auto-eject time and temperature on the Hottop B because it isnt aiming for those figures as the P would - it simply monitors the roast time and temperature and stops the roast if it reaches either point. Its up to the operator to adjust the heater and fan settings to produce the profile they want. Ive never actually used either of those functions as an important part of the program, Ill just normally set it to a round time figure thats easy to calculate elapsed time (such as 20 minutes) and a temperature higher than what Ill ever need so it doesnt auto-dump. Ill then manually eject the roast when its at the point I want, in fact Ive never done a roast with either Hottop controller where Ive let it stop it itself because thats a decision I like to make.

If you were using the P, the total roast time would be calculated based on the sum of the times you choose for each roast segment, and once it had run that time (i.e. reached the end of the program) it would eject. There isnt really an equivalent for target temperature in the P as it just aims for the setpoint in each segment rather than seeing the achievement of such as a trigger to dump the roast.

To be continued below...

[sugilun]

Re: Hottop B or P

Wow~~Very detail review~~Thx for the reply.

What I really want is the consistancy of my roast. Im currently using IMex. However, I found it is very hard to get consistance roast.Let say if I want the FC happened at 10mins and the SC come 5mins after the FC. Which model is suitable for me?I reckon I might go for the "B" now. Cos it cost less and its also programmable.

CAn i ask sth about the "B". Once uve got the programe right, than u can use that program to roast again again and again. Does that mean it can provide a more consistance roast compare to the IMex?  Also, uve mentioned about "Before you start the roast, you enter simply a total roast time and target temperature and start the roast." what does that mean? Is that mean once uve entered 20mins at 211degree, the roast will finish in 20mins at 211 degree? Im confused about the target temperature. What I reckon the P can do is u can enter a temperature that u want at a particular time. Let say if u want the first min at 100 degree and the 3rd mins the temp is at 160 degree and so on. Can the "B" do that as well? Or u have to manually do that with the "B"?

Tony

[pullman]

Re: Hottop B or P

Hottop P:
Fancy LCD multi-colour control panel with silicon rubber buttons and 10 memory locations. Before you start the roast, you create a program using 8 different roasting segments, each of which can have a setting for temperature, time and fan speed. Initial programming is slow but once youve done one you can copy and paste to other memory locations and refine the roast parameters. Once the roast is underway you have limited control, being able only to adjust the temperature of the active segment. Essentially the philosophy is Program, then roast and I found this preferable over the B controller when getting started, but a little limiting once Id built up more experience. Since youre telling the controller what temperature to aim for, you dont have to worry about learning the thermodynamics of the roaster as you do with the B controller as the Ps brains will take care of actual heater power and gentle ramp up/down of power as required to reach the set point at the required time.

The thing I like most about the P controller is that while you never leave any roaster unattended, its the most set-and-forget solution and you dont have to monitor it as much as others during the roast. You create the initial program and can then pretty well sit back and let it follow the program until its time to eject the roast. This makes it a very sociable roaster, i.e. you can set it going while you have friends around and can stand around nearby and chat, keeping one ear out for the cracks and monitoring the change of smell without having to keep too close an eye on the screen, and only getting involved to accept the safety beeps and to eject the roast. By contrast the Bs programs are time-based so its sometimes necessary to make a change a bit earlier or later time-wise than you may have when you created an initial program (e.g. if ambient temperature is quite different), which means you have to pay a lot more attention to the control panel. The P is also a very schmik looking controller, far prettier than the controller on any other domestic roaster be that Hottop or anyone else, so if someone wants to take a closer interest theres plenty to see on the control panel and in the viewing window.
The thing I dislike most about the P controller is that it doesnt look ahead to the next roasting segments parameters when controlling the current one. This means if its got 30 seconds to go and is slightly above the set point, it will drop off the power to bring it back down even if the next segment requires it to increase the temperature. The amount of thermal energy stored in the drum means this doesnt adversely affect the roast but the engineer within me would prefer it to look ahead and behave accordingly.

Hottop B:
Simpler segmented LED display control panel and 3 memory locations. Before you start the roast, you enter simply a total roast time and target temperature and start the roast. Once its underway you then manually control the heater power and fan speed to build a profile as you go. Once the roast has finished you can save the program you just created, however theres no way to edit it at all other than performing another roast and making the adjustments as you go once again. Initially it has a steeper learning curve than the P controller as you have to learn the thermodynamics of the roaster, i.e. how long it takes for a control panel change to show up in the drum. I stalled the first few B roasts while learning this, however now Ive learnt this I find it the more flexible of the two controllers because you can adjust all parameters at any point in the roast.

The thing I like most about the B controller is the ability to control every aspect of the program at any time - and its a fair bit cheaper than the P too! It is undoubtedly the most flexible Hottop controller.
The thing I dislike most about the B controller is the fact you cant erase a program completely and start with an empty program or edit the program upfront. This means if you roast with an existing program (as you often would want to otherwise whats the point in having them) you sometimes have to do battle with the pre-programmed adjustments coming in before you want them, e.g. if you decided you wanted the fan to come on later youd have to wait for it to automatically turn up and then turn it back down.


Some of these things are discussed in a bit more detail at http://www.coffeetamper.com.au/**/reviews/gene-hottop/#hottopbp although that was more of a first look than a detailed review. If a picture tells a thousand words then hopefully a video will tell ten thousand - Ive got video clips of a complete roast from the two controllers at www.thingscoffee.com.au/**.php which may help demonstrate their operation.

HTH,
Greg

[Randy_G.]

Re: Hottop B or P

Sorry. I still dont know what is the difference between Hottop B and P. Especially the "B".

Check the Hottop USA website as there are some resources here that can help including the download of the owners manual and a recently-added page describing the differences from a users standpoint.

The roasters are identical, part for part, and that means EVERY part, with the exception of the control panel. The control panel is the user interface and controls all functions of the roaster. The "B" gives much greater and more precise control of the roast. The P is best for a person who wants something close and just wants to hit a button and roast, particularly if they want to roast a lot of different ways because the P has 10 memory areas.

If you are an enthusiast and particular about your coffee, and if you want to be able to control the roast time between the end of first and the beginning of second and be able to manipulate the ramp up to first, etc., the B is the best choice.

Feel free to ask specific questions if you have any and I will try to help.

[sugilun]

Re: Hottop B or P

Sorry. I still dont know what is the difference between Hottop B and P. Especially the "B".

[Lizzie]

Re: Hottop B or P

Tis us! We just had to get a few final details in place but theyre now available through our partner store, www.thingscoffee.com.au. Same great service as always, and some great opening specials!

Greg

congratulations, Greg!!

L

[gregpullman]

Re: Hottop B or P

Hi Luca,

If your mate wanted back to back roasts then he either didnt do his pre-purchase research or was poorly advised as neither the Hottop or the Gene easily allow this. I do the same as Randy - once you dump the roast, the cooling tray fan and agitator runs for five minutes. During this time, remove the filter and the drum cover (carefully!) and by the end of the five minutes of cooling youre sitting just under 100 deg C. With the other parts intact its more like 170 after that time. Ill normally let it get down to about 60 C and then start the next roast to allow it to build up some heat before the beans go in which helps eliminate the roast memory. All up that might result in an 8 minute delay from when you dump the roast to when you start the next one, and making sure the beans start at the same temperature every time. Its not instant back to back for sure, but its a minimal delay, you have to wait for the beans to cool before you can do much with them anyway, it means starting at the same temp every time and considering the Gene actually takes about 12 minutes to cool the beans and stop the drum (using the built-in cooling system) I reckon the Hottop performs pretty well. Using the factory cooling system on the Gene you finish the roast, then have to wait that 12 minutes before you start the next roast; sure, once youve unloaded you can load the new beans and start straight away so its back to back in that sense, but youve waited at least as long for the cooling process to take place as youd wait for the Hottops cooling plus pre-heat time so the net result is much the same. The only way you can get true back to back roasts in the Gene (i.e. stopping the roaster when beans are done and starting the next one immediately) is by stopping the roast with the emergency stop (which you dont want to do on a regular basis - its an emergency stop for a reason), dump the beans into some kind of aftermarket external cooling system and load your new beans into a piping hot drum and restart. Can be done but its not how its designed to be used and the fact you need to employ additional apparatus indicates this.

Still, like with all things, theres no such thing as a perfect roaster which is why its good to know the strengths and weaknesses of each model on the market so you can choose one that suits the way you work. It always pays to take blanket statements this is the best espresso machine / roaster / grinder with a grain or three of salt and do your own research, because as I found you may end up finding a very different conclusion and solution suits your particular needs.

Greg

[luca]

Re: Hottop B or P

Luca,

For good or bad, yes, you have me here! :

The cooling between roasts is automatic. At the end of one roast and cooling cycle the roaster turns itself off. Empty the chaff tray and begin the next roast immediately. The machine goes into an automatic, extended cooling cycle (fan on high and bean-drop door in the chamber open iirc). You can speed that up a bit by removing the bean loading cover and pulling the rear main filter out to increase air flow. When it has cooled down it will automatically go back to heating warm up mode.

If my memory still works, I think that the "add beans" signal at the beginning of the program goes off at about 163 degrees F (73 C). At the end of that automatic cool-down it goes back to heating at about 140-150 (60-65 C.) or so I think.

Hope that explains it sufficiently.

Thanks for that, Randy. A friend of mine told me that he considers his Hottop B basically useless for back to back roasts, particularly seeing as he likes to drop at a much higher temperature. Presumably it would be an exceptionally simple matter to change the programming at the factory to allow you to roast as you wish. Perhaps you could raise this with Hottop Taiwan. At the moment, I wouldnt spend my money on a Hottop ... and I really love the idea of them.

Cheers,

Luca

[pullman]

Re: Hottop B or P

Tis us! We just had to get a few final details in place but theyre now available through our partner store, www.thingscoffee.com.au. Same great service as always, and some great opening specials!

Greg

[gregpullman]

Re: Hottop B or P

Ive just heard theres a site sponsor whos taken on Hottop but I guess theyll be making an announcement to that effect quite soon (hopefully I havent stolen anyones thunder here :-[)

[sugilun]

Re: Hottop B or P

can i ask which site sponser sale the Hottop?

[gregpullman]

Re: Hottop B or P

Im tending to agree with Mikef. I have both a Gene and a Hottop B and the Gene hardly gets used these days. This is not because the Gene is a bad unit - its not at all, but I have the choice between the two and I instinctively use the Hottop. I think thats partly because when I was getting started with these roasters I found the noise of the Gene difficult to learn on compared to the (relatively) whisper-quiet Hottop. These days I really only fire up the Gene when I want to do another comparison or to work out if I find it any easier to work with now I have a few roasting hours up or whether I can hear the cracks any better than before - while I dont find it quite as hard to work with as I used to, generally speaking I still come away with the same conclusions I started with and it goes back in the box. If I didnt have a Hottop to compare to, Im sure Id get used to it and be quite happy with it, but since the results from the HT are so good (in my opinion) I really have no need to use the Gene. That general satisfaction with the Hottop has led me in directions I never thought Id take.

The inherent design of the two units is such that with the Gene you use your eyes more than your ears (noisy process, glass drum), whereas with the Hottop you use your ears more than your eyes (quiet process, end-drum viewing window). Nice if you can have all of both, but given one or the other Id prefer to have more sound than sight - Ive completed some late-afternoon Hottop roasts that have ended in pitch blackness and stopped it purely by sound with excellent results, which would be difficult to achieve in the Gene (for me anyway). Bean colours also vary depending on lighting conditions (hence the value of the CS colour card as a reference under any light source) so going only by colour may be misleading and the change is gradual; at least the bean cracks are a definitive signpost in the process (if you can hear them).

Obviously theres a lot out there about the deficiencies of the Hottop and I nearly dismissed a Hottop because of this, but Im glad I bit the bullet and took my searching a bit further. From my experience with all bar the very first controller, most of those criticisms seem to be made based on the D controller, not the later programmable units. Ive had similarly minimal levels of tipping from both Hottop and Gene roasts, Ive had Hottop roasts over in 13 minutes and stretched them out to 24. Two years ago people had the choice between the non-programmable Hottop D and the programmable and cheaper Gene, so its not surprising a number of people jumped ship - having the D and Gene side by side thats a big plus for the Gene, but the B and P really change the landscape. Another couple of gripes I had with Hottops were that there was no local support and you had to pay $US into an overseas account - both those points are now redundant as Hottop is locally supported and distributed.

Obviously there are other pros and cons in both camps than the ones above and they were covered in the review. Ultimately however the old advice applies - theyre both good units with pros and cons so see if you can see / use both and decide which suits you best. There are some who will prefer the Hottop, others will prefer the Gene - were fortunate that we have the choice.

Greg

[Randy_G.]

Re: Hottop B or P

Luca,

For good or bad, yes, you have me here! :

The cooling between roasts is automatic. At the end of one roast and cooling cycle the roaster turns itself off. Empty the chaff tray and begin the next roast immediately. The machine goes into an automatic, extended cooling cycle (fan on high and bean-drop door in the chamber open iirc). You can speed that up a bit by removing the bean loading cover and pulling the rear main filter out to increase air flow. When it has cooled down it will automatically go back to heating warm up mode.

If my memory still works, I think that the "add beans" signal at the beginning of the program goes off at about 163 degrees F (73 C). At the end of that automatic cool-down it goes back to heating at about 140-150 (60-65 C.) or so I think.

Hope that explains it sufficiently.