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  • Mexico Veracruz Organic

    Hi -- has anyone anything to report on the Mexico Veracruz from the July beanbay? My 1st roast of this (to CS9, maybe 10) was rather ordinary (yes I know thats not much of a description :-[ ) and so I was wondering what I should be looking for...

  • #2
    Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic

    What was your roast profile Simone?

    Mal.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic

      Hi Mal,

      had 400g in the BM, 1st snaps of FC at 12 mins, RFC around 13 mins, then tried to back the temperature off to SC. All seemed to be going well, then the temperature suddenly shot up at around 16 mins. But all I could hear was a few minor snaps, so dithered over it, and think I waited too long. Dumped at 17 mins.

      Did a lot of fiddling with the HG all through the roast to try to slow things down, may have been over successful up to FC, not successful enough afterwards :-/

      Looked like CS9-10, but some of the beans looked like they were darker on one (or both) ends too -- is that tipping?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic


        Pretty good looking profile Simone.

        The dark ends do sound like tipping (as much as I can tell without seeing the beans!), that would have happened at the 2.5 minute mark where you were applying a little too much heat. Back the heat off a little during your 1.5-4.0 area of your roast (which is a little steep) and they will should disappear. It will extend your time to first crack by about a minute which will stll be ok.

        Im also curious if your second crack marker is in the right spot. If it is then you were in 2nd crack for 2 minutes.... a little long for most beans. I would be tempted on dropping your beans into the cooler a lot earlier ( <30 seconds after second).

        The only other thing to try changing in that profile would be to back the heat off a little at the 15 minute mark too, the sharp rise there is either the beans going exothermic (adding their own heat) or you getting impatient and to finish
        ;-)
        Try and keep the 1st to 2nd profile a little smoother and you should get better results in the cup.

        All in all, its really a good looking profile and you are not far from getting great home roasted coffee.

        A.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic

          Too right Andy, [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

          Thats why I still like to go with small batches (80-100g) in a popper before committing to 700-1,000g batches in the Corretto. This will allow you to identify the milestones for a particular bean; when FC starts (Temperature not time), when it starts to roll, FC exothermic effects, when Rolling FC finishes, when SC starts (Temp), any observable exothermic results around this time and then when Rolling SC starts.

          Once youre armed with this info, you can then calculate a profile or two. By way of example, Ive attached your profile from above with a calculated profile curve in yellow. The ramp to Rolling FC is between 14-15C/Min, heat then reduced to realise a ramp of about 5C/Min to the start of SC at 17minutes. Ive never cupped this bean before so dont know if it benefits from going into Rolling SC or just a stretched Lazy SC. Either way, once you start cupping the results you can make decisions about the benefits or otherwise of doing this.

          Thats roughly how I go about developing profiles for the Corretto Simone. It is really advantageous to have an old popper on hand though for doing the initial roast samples (for new beans/crops), coupled with your thermologger/CS Roast Monitor Software you should soon be able to "dial-in" your profiles in order to achieve planned outcomes. Thats when the real fun begins in my opinion...

          All the best,
          Mal.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic

            Hi Andy & Mal, thanks for the detailed replies

            So -- slower at the start -- for some reason I had this idea that the temp should ramp up more quickly at the start  :-?

            The SC marker is rather dubious -- FC seemed to go on forever, til 14 mins then at 16 mins I get this pitiful little snap. So Im like "was that it??" and ended up keeping the roast going another minute in the hope of hearing something more unambiguous  :-/

            The sudden burst of enthusiasm at 15 mins was all the beans -- there we were, putting along so nicely, then kaboom! Id never seen this exothermic thing before; thought it was meant to happen during FC (?)

            Point taken about smaller trial batches, Mal -- too bad I never had a popper, just a totally uncontrollable iRoar that I could never hear FC with anyway! But wouldnt a popper go way too fast (just like the iRoast)? Or are the temps at which various events happen that repeatable (for a given bean)?

            Anyway, Monday being roast day, I just had to have another go -- sadly without the benefit of all this good advice, so probably still too fast at the start  :-[ and for some reason much more wobbly. Got FC at 11:30, and what I think of as the "little firecrackers" stage of FC around 12-13 mins. But was still getting cracks at 14:30.

            I was trying for a lighter roast, and the beans seemed to be getting darker pretty fast so dumped at 15 mins. Looks like a mixture of CS9 with some CS8 (not totally even, in other words)

            Regarding temperature repeatability -- this time my measured temps were hotter -- 210C at FC, not 190 like last time. So my measurements arent very consistent with each other, yet Im convinced I had the TC set up just the same. Something else to work on!

            Log of the second attempt below, with my approximation to Mals ramp curve superimposed -- the wobbles in the middle is us adjusting the HG trying to get the 15C per min (and the spike at 2 mins is the TC getting bumped out of the beans)


            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic

              Hi again Simone.....

              Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#5 date=1218447085
              So -- slower at the start -- for some reason I had this idea that the temp should ramp up more quickly at the start  :-?
              Absolutely mate, for the reasons that Andy explained. If you want to shorten up the time to Rolling FC, you can either steepen the ramp very slightly for its entire length (thats what I do) or start off with a slow ramp and then steepen it up after the bean mass has reached roughly 150C. The problem with the second method though, is that it means you are approaching the FC region at a higher rate of knots and run the risk of over-shooting and running FC straight into SC. A steady ramp is far easier to manage.
              Of course, commercial roasters may be able to approach this in an entirely different manner but then they have a lot more control over whats going on too.

              Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#5 date=1218447085
              The sudden burst of enthusiasm at 15 mins was all the beans -- there we were, putting along so nicely, then kaboom! Id never seen this exothermic thing before; thought it was meant to happen during FC (?)
              I spose there could be a number of factors for why (Rolling)SC got a march on so quickly after apparently next to zero lead-up snaps. Could just be a bean idiosyncrasy too I guess and might require very attentive observation after FC finishes. You really do need to keep an eye out for the exothermic jump in the ramp profile though and yes, it happens at the onset of both FC and SC. The SC occurrence is much more peaky in nature though and this may be one explanation for the apparent rush into Rolling SC.

              Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#5 date=1218447085
              Point taken about smaller trial batches, Mal -- too bad I never had a popper, just a totally uncontrollable iRoar that I could never hear FC with anyway! But wouldnt a popper go way too fast (just like the iRoast)? Or are the temps at which various events happen that repeatable (for a given bean)?
              Yep, its a fairly simple method to employ and works quite well. You just need to keep the batches small-ish so that the overall roast time is not too dissimilar to the times you normally go for in the Corretto... Say, 15 minutes as an arbitrary number; doesnt matter all that much as its the temperatures youre really interested in and so long as you keep the roast within controllable bounds (time) you should have plenty of time to take notes of all the milestones.
              And yep, the key temperature points are reasonably consistent and certainly useful for calculating profiles for the Corretto. As you have observed though, you do need to take care that the t/c bead is in an identical position each time for it to have any relevance. Its not a big deal though as you soon get to know the optimum positions for it both in the popper and the Corretto.

              Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#5 date=1218447085
              for some reason much more wobbly. Got FC at 11:30, and what I think of as the "little firecrackers" stage of FC around 12-13 mins. But was still getting cracks at 14:30.
              The "wobbly" chart may have been due to disturbance of the t/c by the movement of the beans? Or maybe if it was a little bit windy at the time?
              Dont worry too much about "straggler" pops and cracks as FC drags out a bit. Its more important to note when Rolling FC starts and stops; not every pop before or after, its just too difficult to do and not very meaningful. You really just need to keep an eye on the temperature ramp to make sure its doing what you want and where this coincides with Rolling FC and the start of SC and Rolling SC if you intend roasting that far.

              Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#5 date=1218447085
              Looks like a mixture of CS9 with some CS8 (not totally even, in other words)
              Not a big deal Simone; it may be typical for this particular bean variety. It "could" be linked with the size of the batches you use in your Corretto as smaller batches can sometimes develop in this way. Might be worth it for you to try for a 600g batch?

              Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#5 date=1218447085
              Regarding temperature repeatability -- this time my measured temps were hotter -- 210C at FC, not 190 like last time. So my measurements arent very consistent with each other, yet Im convinced I had the TC set up just the same. Something else to work on!
              Not sure why this should be the case.... It(the t/c bead) wasnt touching the bread-pan or some other such thing? I might notice a variance of 2-3C but nothing in this quantum at all.

              Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#5 date=1218447085
              Log of the second attempt below, with my approximation to Mals ramp curve superimposed -- the wobbles in the middle is us adjusting the HG trying to get the 15C per min (and the spike at 2 mins is the TC getting bumped out of the beans)
              It takes a bit of practice alright. I dont have a variable heat output heatgun so have just identified height adjustment points of the HG Nozzle above the top of the bean mass, and this seems to be quite easy to manage and quite repeatable. I think the best idea for an adjustable height heatgun arrangement was via the use of an old camera tripod. This should be capable of almost infinite adjustment and dead easy to use..... might be worth a look?

              All the best mate and stick with it....

              Cheers,
              Mal.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic

                Hi Mal, thanks for all that info 8-)

                A couple more leetle questions... :

                Firstly, and a bit OT, I had 2 beans that refused to roast -- they went round and round with the other beans OK but resolutely stayed cashew-colored for the entire roast. Whats their problem -- dont they want to grow up and be espresso? :-? ;D

                Back to the profile now -- been reading around on the slow warmup vs faster thing -- someone in another thread suggested 65C in the 1st min *then* the 15C/min ramp (or so says my note in my logbook) and this was the plan I was attempting to follow. Now of course that wouldve been for a different bean, but if I understood Andy correctly, too much heat early on can cause tipping/scorching, which is what I got with my 400g batch of Mexican.

                But it presumably works in some cases, so I was wondering -- are there beans for which more heat at the start is actually necessary? Or is this more a function of batch size?

                Originally posted by Mal link=1218421836/0#6 date=1218459511
                Might be worth it for you to try for a 600g batch?
                True, 400g does look a little lost in there... More thermal mass == less fluctuations? Would be easier to keep the TC bead actually in the beans too 8-)


                The problem with the second method though, is that it means you are approaching the FC region at a higher rate of knots and run the risk of over-shooting and running FC straight into SC.

                So if FC is dragging out then would it be possible to have both happening simultaneously?


                You just need to keep the batches small-ish so that the overall roast time is not too dissimilar to the times you normally go for in the Corretto...
                Smaller (popper) batches roast slower? That much slower?


                Originally posted by Mal link=1218421836/0#6 date=1218459511
                I think the best idea for an adjustable height heatgun arrangement was via the use of an old camera tripod. This should be capable of almost infinite adjustment and dead easy to use..... might be worth a look?
                Yes -- the HG dial seemed like a good thing, but it has no markings or numbers on it, so you dont know where you are with it until your profile goes awol, and then its a bit late. I may attack it with a marker pen (dont think my SO will let me butcher his good tripod. Also I dont know where hes hidden it ;D

                Anyway, Ill try it (the MVO) out tomorrow (and the next day, and the day after that..) so at least I might find out if lighters better...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic

                  "I had 2 beans that refused to roast -- they went round and round with the other beans OK but resolutely stayed cashew-colored for the entire roast."

                  Immature / undeveloped beans. Theyre called "quakers" for reasons unknown
                  to me. Eat one to see what they taste like, and throw the rest out.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic

                    Darn -- already pitched em -- or was that a lucky escape :

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic

                      [QUOTE=simone link=1218421836/0#7 date=1218474488]Hi Mal, thanks for all that info 8-)

                      A couple more leetle questions...  :[?quote]
                      Thats what were here for Simone... ;D

                      Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#7 date=1218474488
                      Firstly, and a bit OT, I had 2 beans that refused to roast -- they went round and round with the other beans OK but resolutely stayed cashew-colored for the entire roast. Whats their problem -- dont they want to grow up and be espresso?  :-?  ;D
                      "hbs" answer is spot-on. You want to be careful trying to chew them though, I broke a tooth on one a few years back.... Very painful

                      Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#7 date=1218474488
                      Back to the profile now -- been reading around on the slow warmup vs faster thing -- someone in another thread suggested 65C in the 1st min *then* the 15C/min ramp (or so says my note in my logbook)
                      Hmmm.... I dunno really :-/. Ive tried doing this sort of thing at a range of different plateaux settings and cant really say that it has changed the roast results in any positive way. From my observations, this does nothing more than complicate the roast process for no measurable gain... redundant, in other words.

                      Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#7 date=1218474488
                      if I understood Andy correctly, too much heat early on can cause tipping/scorching
                      Yep, it sure can.... Thats why I suggested the 15C/Minute gradient to Rolling FC. Its quite a gentle ramp but still gets to RFC within a reasonable time and avoids the "baking" scenario.

                      Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#7 date=1218474488
                      are there beans for which more heat at the start is actually necessary? Or is this more a function of batch size?
                      Nope, none that Ive come across Simone. As I suggested above, if you want to steepen up the gradient towards RFC then its best to do this after the bean mass has arrived at 150C but you really do need to be very attentive.

                      Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#7 date=1218474488
                      400g does look a little lost in there... More thermal mass == less fluctuations? Would be easier to keep the TC bead actually in the beans too  8-)
                      Larger batches, up to a point, are much easier to manage; no doubt about it. The whole process is much smoother and controllable and so long as you optimise your storage of the roasted beans, bigger batches dont necessarily mean stale beans when you get around to opening the bag.

                      Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#7 date=1218474488
                      So if FC is dragging out then would it be possible to have both happening simultaneously?  
                      You could, with some bean varieties but not usual in my experience. If your temperature gradient is a little too flat when heading into RFC then FC itself may be a bit slow to get a move on and if you dont adjust the gradient downwards before heading into SC then FC may roll into SC.

                      Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#7 date=1218474488
                      Smaller (popper) batches roast slower? That much slower?
                      Yes, they do. If your sole method of roasting is via the ubiquitous Popper, then varying the batch size up or down, allows you to control the roast duration. Small batches allow the air flow rate to increase as it passes the heating elements, thereby reducing the heat transferred per unit of air volume; vice versa for increasing batch size.

                      Originally posted by simone link=1218421836/0#7 date=1218474488
                      (dont think my SO will let me butcher his good tripod. Also I dont know where hes hidden it ;D
                      I did suggest an "old" tripod mate .... Dont tell your SO where you got the idea from if by some miracle your heatgun suddenly finds itself supported by a tripod in rather good condition.... :

                      Youll get there Simone... All of us have thrown away buggered up batches when we first started off. I guess its a shame to waste good beans but you have to learn somehow and experience is by far the best teacher with coffee roasting. All the best mate and Happy Roasting....

                      Mal.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic

                        Whoops, I didnt suggest chewing on quakers as a means of
                        promoting the dental industry, but simply because they have a
                        characteristic flavour that can be detected in cupping if
                        there are enough. IME its a slightly rancid peanut like
                        flavour, not really all that objectionable per se but not
                        something youd want a lot of in your coffee.

                        As Mal says, easy height adjustability is critical with a
                        fixed output HG. I posted a while ago about non-
                        destructive mods to a suitable tripod for the purpose:

                         http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1154442377/141#141

                        This was only ever meant as a feasibility study, but we switched
                        to a Gene before refining it. Used it long enough to conclude
                        that the tripod arrangement is very effective. I used it to achieve
                        (after a few minutes at around 160C) a fairly quick ramp to FC,
                        then back right off to get a slow (5+ mins) progression to SC.
                        I would raise the HG several cm (I was surprised at how much)
                        as FC got underway. Then (monitoring the TC by eye) I would
                        try to keep a slow trend upwards, with small half-cm or so
                        changes in height. The TC would occasionally dip a bit, but I
                        didnt worry if it was only for a short time; more important IMVHO
                        to keep the overall upward trend slow (ie shallow slope on the
                        profile). I was fairly happy with this basic technique, but would have
                        refined it further if we had continued with the Corretto.


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic

                          Just as well I gave the quakers the fling -- I already have dentists circling like vultures ;D Ill probably just have to try the next one I see, tho :

                          But back to my MVO -- the 1st batch was (I think) darker than I was aiming for, which was CS9 as advised on beanbay). This lots much lighter, and *very* different.

                          In a good way? Well, its evolving...

                          Tried some in the plunger a few hours after the roast (this my version of "cupping" ;D ) -- and it was strange. The words that popped into my mind were "floor polish". :-/

                          Much the same the next day (plunger again). Not undrinkable, just rather peculiar. As espresso -- very astringent + the odd "polish" flavour == not very nice

                          But as espresso tonight -- very different. Its still there, but much muted, and some other much more interesting flavour is coming though -- I nearly had it (what it reminded me of) but... gone... sigh... Ill try again tomorrow :-[

                          Pleeease would someone who actually has a vocab for this sort of thing roast & cup some of their Mexican?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic

                            I have roasted 2*500gms on the 30/07. But I have neither the vocab, or a good roast (ie, I stuffed it up, running at a too low temp so SC slowed right down). Mine came out about cs8. Im slowly making my way through it - about 200gms left! Hopefully my next lot will be more sucessful.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Mexico Veracruz Organic

                              Simone, I havent tried floor polish though it certainly conjurs things in my memory banks, ranging from, turpeny, leathery, woody, cedar, citrus, and medicinal - all of which are coffee-speak.

                              But if floor polish works for you, then stick with it!

                              Comment

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