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Thread: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

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    Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Without getting all technical, one would define a caffe latte as being a flat white but more milky. Well, more milk to coffee at the very least, being served in a larger cup than the flat white.

    At least this is of course my assumption.

    Recently, Ive been graced with designing a menu, and the question came up.. should I offer Flat White as well as Caffé Latté; this may seem silly, why would anyone ever ask the question. There is potentially more money to be had, as most people who order latte on a regular basis dont order flat whites and I may potentially be ruling out the entire demographic that always do, flawlessly order a latte over a flat white.

    But .. I still asked the question, to be different, to break a trend, Im not sure. But for fellow Baristas and cafe go-ers, give your opinion, what would you think if you walked into a coffee shop only to find Caffe Latte not an option. =P

    Regards,
    Robstar

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 615C5140475241330 link=1251105166/0#0 date=1251105166
    Without getting all technical, one would define a caffe latte as being a flat white but more milky. Well, more milk to coffee at the very least, being served in a larger cup than the flat white.

    At least this is of course my assumption.
    Hi Rob,

    Last I heard and taught, the Melbourne standard was Latte in a glass with up to 1cm microfoam. Flat white in cup (preferably not bucket) with no more than 1cm microfoam. Some cafes choose less on the FW and thats fine...

    Good luck

    2mcm

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    Senior Member redzone121's Avatar
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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    I only ever make coffee for people at home but often make a caffe latte for those that prefer a bigger drink. I would assume you would be missing out on potential sales by giving it a miss :-/

    Chris

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    As Chris said, In melbourne it has nothing to do with strength or volume of milk. Customers assume a latte will come in a glass, or at least a tall shaped cup with about 1cm of microfoam. A flat white can have up to 1cm although I think many cutomers would assume that a flat white should have very little microfoam.

    You can debate interpretations of beverages and compare how they serve them overseas, however for me I think its easier to go with the flow then cut against the grain. If people know they like coffee stronger then they will tell you and order to suit. Likewise they will do the same of they want a weak muggacino.

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    As a customer, I would order it anyway - I generally dont read a menu in a cafe anyway because I order a latte as a standard. If the person making the coffee looked at me strangely or said that we dont offer Lattes, I would walk out on the premise that they obviously didnt know what they were doing and all they served was a Cuppof Cino to the less discerning customer.

    To me, a standard coffee menu in any cafe would consist of:-

    1. Espresso
    2. Cappuccino
    3. Latte
    4. Flat White

    If the cafe was more upmarket and actually knew what they were doing, they would also offer ristrettos, piccolos, etc.

    Why so much of the restriction on items on your menu? If its space, why dont you not offer a Caffe Latte and instead offer a Latte allowing you a bit more room on your board but not putting your credibility, from a discerning customers standpoint, at risk?

    BTW - to me, a flat white is what I ask for if I know the people making the coffee (ie; our cafe on Base) insist on putting 4cm of foam in a latte, and that way I know Im getting better value for money rather than getting ripped off by only getting half a take away cup of coffee and the rest frothy bubbles - I kid you not! But there are a lot of people out there that do drink flat whites because they dont like foam at all.

    Cheers
    Di

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    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Since the definitions of the different coffee drinks easily fall into the daffynition category, my suggestion would be to offer your own.

    Greg

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Given Chriss comment, I understood what he meant, as of course I have my assumption in how I serve them both, as theyve been clearly stated in the thread. Yet getting off-topic with that.

    Hoyks, obviously the tone in which you write words does translate very well via text. However I have to just say, that its not so much a "Hi, help me build a coffee menu, I dont know what Im talking about" or a sign of much restriction. (this actually made me raise an eyebrow, as I only mentioned a latte, yet you seem to think Im restricting on a much larger scale)

    It was put best by Muppit, an attempt to cut against the grain considering the similarities between the two, the misconceptions in the general public of the two and the one apparent factor that a latte is served in a glass. Which will obviously hold more volume then one of my ACF tulip cups.

    For the record, I am a merely discerning if the difference between the two, is large enough to make an outrageous decision. External factors, ex. double shot, extra hot, etc, etc.. have no relevance to this topic at hand. If a customer asked for a quad-shot latte, I would most obviously not say no in a real world situation. :P

    However, given certain simple approaches, it was more of a vague outlook that the latte is the same as the flat white, only one has more milk the other and is served in a clear glass, so you can just sit tight with a well made flat white that wont dissapoint, because you had a bad experience at the other place down the road.

    But this reasoning, once I put it down, doesnt seem very friendly for the customer, limiting their options (as I would have no latte glasses sitting on top of my Synesso). I guess a conclusion can be drawn at the end of the day, that it is too outrageous to pull lattes off the list of choices in a coffee shop, simply because it doesnt take that much effort to just make a latte.

    Listen to me, talking to myself almost. ::)

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    The general public have no idea of how a coffee is made (I still get can you make a cup of chino with that?) and they dont care. People are used to ordering something and if you take it off the menu (even if it is almost exactly the same) they will not come back as they cant get what they want. You may have a very mature market where people understand that there is the same amount of coffee in a flat white as a latte, me I am dealing with the "if it is big then its good value" crowd and cause everyone else has everything on the menu so must I. Am I educating my customers where I can, absolutely, but I am in the business to make money first and educate second not the other way round. Anyway that is a bit long winded and I hope I made some good points. ;)

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Understood you well and clear Moto! :)

    I think that really at the end of the day, not everyone is savvy as you and I, and assuming that the next customer is, would see a loss in profit.

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    Senior Member Coffee2Di4's Avatar
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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Thats sort of the point I was trying to make - sorry if it didnt come over that well, Robstar.

    I was responding from a general consumers point of view with your invitation of
    Quote Originally Posted by 122F2233342132400 link=1251105166/0#0 date=1251105166
    ...and cafe go-ers, give your opinion, what would you think if you walked into a coffee shop only to find Caffe Latte not an option. =P

    Regards,
    Robstar
    I wasnt trying to design a menu for you, but more point that my expectations as a customer and what I would expect to see on a menu board in a cafe. What I was trying to say was I would think it extremely odd, and a little disconcerting, if I was standing there waiting for my coffee to be made, glanced up above the counter to the menu board, and a Latte wasnt an option.

    As a customer - and even now that I am more experienced - to me, a flat white denotes very little or no foam, whereas a latte has about 1cm of foam on it. Its not about what its served up in or the size of the cup/glass its served in to me as a consumer, but more about what is served to me. You could give me a latte in a glass, but if it had chocolate powder on top, I would assume that you had made me a cappuccino because the perception is that cappuccinos come with chocolate powder, not lattes. Yes, we know thats not the only difference, but Joe Public mostly doesnt.

    Okay, I think Im talking myself around in circles, sorry, and not making a lot of sense.

    What it boils down to is, it is the consumer that pays at the end of the day - if they want both a flat white and a latte on the menu board, is it worth being different to possibly losing that paying customer?

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Robstar...one important lesson I have learnt working in this industry is that you really have to give the customer what they want.

    Everything else is bluff! *;D ;)

    No, seriously, it constantly grates on me how city people denigrate the fact that out here we sell 16oz coffees. But I defy any one to come out here and tell my customers as of next week, were taking them off the menu...and then stick around... ::)

    What Im trying to say is...

    Weve given our customers a choice. They have a choice to buy a huge coffee in a 16oz or they can choose to have a smaller one in a 12oz. And theyre happy to make the choice for themselves. Mostly, theyre adults were serving after all!

    I think that if you can include the latte and the flat white, youll keep all your customers happy. Its not about how its served, its about what they want, IMHO. (in my humble opinion but we all know what opinions are like! *;))

    Of course, seeing as I order a flat white (or "just a flat white" at certain outlets *:D) I wouldnt care one way or another that latte was not up on the menu. So, having said that, your discerning coffee snobs will know what they want to drink regardless of what is up on the menu, its your newcomers to the shop that drink what everyone else drinks (a latte it seems!) who will be put off...

    Though, Ive always wanted to have a menu in a cafe that has...

    Large
    Small
    White
    Black

    On the board... ;D and then people can figure it out for themselves... ;)

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu


    I agree (and serve it) the way 2mcm has suggested.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4A5A56564D58665E5855390 link=1251105166/10#10 date=1251115619
    Though, Ive always wanted to have a menu in a cafe that has...

    Large
    Small
    White
    Black

    On the board... Grin and then people can figure it out for themselves... Wink
    I love that! 8-) Though mine are "regular" and "bigger".

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    I drink flat whites so wouldnt care if you didnt offer cafe lattes.
    But my drink had better not come with too much foam, even if its not served in a glass.

    As for milk ratios, my visitors dont get a choice because my glasses and cups are both 200ml.

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    hmm, if I got a flat white with a 1cm head, Id take it back and say "I didnt ask for a cap". I reckon flat whites have to be exactly that - flat! .5cm foam MAX, if not less (half that again). If any barista at work sends out a flat white with a fat head on it, I pull it, do it again. basic.

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Up here in Brissy your usual "coffee shop punter" doesnt really know the difference between a flat white and a cap except for the cap has chocolate on top (uhhh... duhhhh).

    I really wish we could get over putting chocolate powder on our caps.

    As for flat white and latte, Id prefer to serve the flat white in an acf (or equiv.) 160mL cup and the latte in a 200-210 mL glass. The advantage of a glass to pour into is that it gives you immediate feedback on how much head you have on the beverage/how well you are splitting the jugs etc. and can generally help with consistency (but I still prefer drinking from a ceramic cup ;)).

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Flat White = Cafe Latte

    They are the same thing. No matter how many times I hear people try to invent new definitions.

    There really are no Flat Whites outside Aust (and NZ I guess). Except when you are served by an expat Aussie. When I am OS I dont see Flat Whites offered and Cafe Lattes come in a cup. Yes, what we would call a Flat White.

    Personally I wouldnt stress about it. Offer both, make them how you like. Each customer who walks in will have a different idea about how you should make them.

    I like your idea though, many of the best cafes in the world dont serve Cafe Lattes in glasses. Might be more hassle than it is worth here in OZ though.

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 7C777272677C717271706D75771E0 link=1251105166/15#15 date=1251160893
    Flat White = Cafe Latte

    They are the same thing. No matter how many times I hear people try to invent new definitions.

    There really are no Flat Whites outside Aust (and NZ I guess). Except when you are served by an expat Aussie. When I am OS I dont see Flat Whites offered and Cafe Lattes come in a cup. Yes, what we would call a Flat White.

    Personally I wouldnt stress about it. Offer both, make them how you like. Each customer who walks in will have a different idea about how you should make them.

    I like your idea though, many of the best cafes in the world dont serve Cafe Lattes in glasses. Might be more hassle than it is worth here in OZ though.
    Thats correct, Im pretty sure flat whites originated in melbourne. You could say they are the same thing however a flat white is a very specific kind of latte in that there is supposed to be very little microfoam. Who care what the rest of the world do? Are we not allowed our cultural peculiarities?

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Im not an industry professional, but my take is that they are the same drink in different vessels.

    The reason a cafe latte may look to have more foam is the vessel used is usually taller and narrower than the cup used for a flat white.

    So 5mm of foam in a cup will possibly translate to 7mm in a glass.
    Thats my opinion anyhow.

    What is the difference in the 2 drinks when served in a takeaway cup? Anything?

    Brett.

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Standards still apply with takeaways (latte with a bit more foam) but when you are talking about 16oz I would challenge anyone to tell the difference. When you buy from me though there really isnt a difference between a fw and latte.

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Id be hard pressed to tell the difference between FW & Latte takeaway. No joke.

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 2A212424312A272427263B2321480 link=1251105166/15#15 date=1251160893
    Flat White = Cafe Latte

    They are the same thing. No matter how many times I hear people try to invent new definitions.
    :o

    As far as I know flat whites used to be just hot milk over an espresso shot. Foamless. Lattes have foam as far as I know. We and I suspect others put a thin layer of foam for arts sake. I know that the industry standard, whatever that is, doesnt necessarily differentiate in the cup but I put that down to bad training, education and a lack of caring which transfers into customers and general coffee drinkers thinking they are the same thing. Even today, one of my baristas poured a take-away latte that had next to no head of foam. She made it again without any hesitation; and rightly so. The customer ordered a latte not a flat white for a reason, they like a bit of foam. We educate our customers when they ask what the difference is. We see that as our role in providing coffee drinks to the public. We treat our coffee to our customers as a quality drink to enjoy, not as just a commodity or hit to get them through the next few hours. Lately Ive been encouraging some flat white customers to have a 3/4 flat white as a takeaway (8oz) to have a better ratio of milk to coffee and actually taste the coffee more.

    Our dine in flat whites have a narrower opening (160ml tulips) than our lattes (which are 237ml libbey rocks glasses). If we poured the same milk that we use for lattes into the flat white cups you end up with a cap (with no stupid choc).

    You can actually use the latte milk for a cap. The 1cm head in the glass, translates to the minimum 1cm head for the cap (as in the WBC rules) except we sellout in some ways and top it with choc. (Something also, Ive been challenging some of our customers to go without, just for kicks).

    Obviously Im not final word or anything on this subject, and I dont actually even like milk in my coffee (although Im learning to appreciate it). I do also know that most cafes do not differentiate the flat white and latte, especially in take-aways. And thats fine, if thats how they wanna roll.

    Sorry if I ranted a bit too, but its been a talking point lately amongst *a few fellow employees and other coffee professionals.

    In 16oz, yeah agreed its a bit of a joke, but we still have more foam in a 16oz latte than a 16oz flat white.

    Good discussion worth having I reckon. I think its come up in the past, but cant remember what the outcomes were.

    Cheers,
    Dan

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    Senior Member Luke_G's Avatar
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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    There is little if no difference at all!
    The flat white from my research is actually an Aussie invention.
    The Cafe latte in Itally is traditionally made from 3 equal parts of espresso, milk and froth but over here is a modified version.

    So to take the cafe latte of your menu all together would be a little bit silly in my book?

    Latte drinkers generally prefer either a larger drink for the same price as a FW or enjoy sitting outside there favourite cafe with a pinky finger in the air as they sip the above mentioned cafe latte.

    FW drinkers are your typical coffee drinker that doesnt want "one of those girly coffees" with the cocolate on top.

    Give them the choice i say????


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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Im not gonna pretend that Im half shocked at how many people think that flat whites and lattes are the same thing. To me its like saying an espresso and a ristretto are the same. Obviously not.

    Just quietly, I wouldnt mind the latte being dropped from the menu, and caps without choc dusting brought back in. Cant see that happening in Australia in a hurry though.

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    I have 2 different "training" coffee menus in front of me, from 2 different sources,

    they both have:

    Cafe Latte: 25 - 30ml shot of espresso topped with freshly heated silky smooth textured milk, served in a 170-220ml glass leaving up to 10mm of foam. Serve on a saucer with spoon and sugar.

    Flat white: 25 - 30ml shot of espresso topped with freshly heated silky smooth textured milk, served in a 170-220ml cup leaving up to 5mm of foam. Serve on a saucer with spoon and sugar.

    Then one of them adds at the end of the menu:

    * Note that some of the cup types, sizes and measurements may vary between each establishment.

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    Super Moderator scoota_gal's Avatar
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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    My fave saying out of a funny calender/flip book thingy...

    "Cafe Latte is Italian for you paid too much for that coffee!" ;D

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    To me the way you prepare your milk for each beverage is different - Im old school so I would build temperature (but not body) for a flat white so that its served flat - and I always use a double ristretto base for my flat whites for added flavour, and for a caffe latte the milk gets a bit of expansion followed by whirlpool to build body and definition, making a creamy texture both in the glass and in the mouth

    If I ordered a caffe latte and was served a flat white Id send it back and vise versa

    Likewise anyone ordering a half or three quarter latte or a piccolo for that matter is most likely going to be able to tell the difference between the type of milk texturing used for these coffees - and its not the same as how I would make a flat white... :-/

    I would say that a new school barista would probably split the milk for a flat white - pouring off any creamy texture / added body on top the milk to reveal a flat milk below - which is perhaps better suited for making a flat white

    My two cents worth...

    ACg

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 6A76766972130 link=1251105166/22#22 date=1251199891
    Im not gonna pretend that Im half shocked at how many people think that flat whites and lattes are the same thing. To me its like saying an espresso and a ristretto are the same. Obviously not.

    Just quietly, I wouldnt mind the latte being dropped from the menu, and caps without choc dusting brought back in. Cant see that happening in Australia in a hurry though.
    You seem VERY SURE that your way is the correct way. Any hint as to how you came up with this? Just curious.

    My understanding of the history of the Flat White is completely removed from espresso, so your espresso ristretto comparison is off base.

    As I understand in Australia we drank tea.

    When Americans came to Aust in the WWII they brought coffee, more specifically instant coffee.

    Australians started making coffee, instant coffee with sugar and cold milk poured in, just as they did with their tea. No froth in these.

    Later immigrants, such as those from Italy, brought espresso coffee to Australia. Australians were offered Caps and Lattes etc. Frothy milk.

    So Australians when ordering a coffee would say I want a coffee, with milk, no froth. Just like Im used to drinking. So the Flat White was invented.

    It seems to make sense to me. I have no proof it is true. I am happy to hear other theories.

    If this idea is true, a Flat White should really be made with instant coffee and cold milk...... aaarrrhhhhhh!!!!

    Choc on caps....... that is a whole other thing. I still remember getting my first cap dusted with cinamon :o I wasnt expecting that.

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 774E505E647C3B0 link=1251105166/21#21 date=1251198623
    The Cafe latte in Itally is traditionally made from 3 equal parts of espresso, milk and froth but over here is a modified version.
    That sounds like a traditional cappuccino to me.


    Java "No chocolate power please!" phile

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    I also have a background in training and assessing and in any training plan/ module it always refers to "industry standards".

    Try looking for these "industry standards" and youll find next to nothing. The is an ever changing industry and people make of it what they want. I think its more of a "public conception standard" personally.

    What do i drink when i go to a cafe? Either a double shot flat white or a double shot 3/4 latte.

    I think if something need to be done...we need to address the whole "cappuccino with no chocolate" deal?!?!?

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D544A447E66210 link=1251105166/28#28 date=1251246069
    I think if something need to be done...we need to address the whole "cappuccino with no chocolate" deal?!?!?
    What of it? All those !s and ?s makes your statement seem like cap with no choc is slightly bizzare... to me its preferable (if I wanted choc in my coffee, Id go a mocha) and I love being able to present a bit of artwork in the surface that would otherwise go hidden by the choc sprinkle. That said, I only have a handful of regs who go no choc - and a mountain of them who ask for a thick crust of the stuff! Seriously, you have to crack through the choc to get to the coffee - but thats how they like it.

    I think "industry standard" ought to be make em what they want, regardless of how that compares with traditional/modern/regional/global concepts of what each type of drink is. Underneath all those variables, it is the idea of sending each person away happy that should be the benchmark.

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 083538292E3B285A0 link=1251105166/6#6 date=1251111936
    If a customer asked for a quad-shot latte, I would most obviously not say no in a real world situation
    Why say no? *quad shot latte sounds ok to me... served in a 200ml ACF cup it would be something like a double long macchiato.
    8-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 293935352E3B053D3B365A0 link=1251105166/10#10 date=1251115619
    Large
    Small
    White
    Black *
    hee hee... I like that.
    At the Snobbery you only get offered "Black or White", black is a 50ml double espresso, white is a 220ml latte (or maybe its a flat white or maybe its a cap?!?). *If you want something else you can make it yourself.
    (ya gotta keep it simple for the roaster)

    Quote Originally Posted by 373F36333933352F295A0 link=1251105166/29#29 date=1251249243
    I think "industry standard" ought to be make em what they want, regardless of how that compares with traditional/modern/regional/global concepts of what each type of drink is. *
    Sure. *Industry standard is just a guideline for a text book, it has nothing to do with what a customer demands in a particular situation.

    If a 200ml latte is standard what happens when you pour that into a 250ml takeaway cup? *The customer asks you to fill it up!

    Coffee choices are not country specific either, they are very regional. *Different states and even towns within the same state have large variations in what is "standard" to them. *Following hte industry standards to the letter could mean that you will be producing the "most perfect standard coffees" in the quietest cafe in the town.

    Just to get back on topic a little... I think you should offer both, latte in a glass, flat white in a cup and make them how you think they should be for your area.

    ;)

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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Ok melicious please done hurt me!!! I come in peace :-/

    The cap no choc remark was tongue in cheek. We even have a name for it at work..the albinocino ;D We also use the choc on espresso method at work so caps get artwork on top regardless.

    As for industry standards..my point was supposed to be the same as yours...if they pay for it...give it to them!

  33. #33
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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 4C474242574C414241405D45472E0 link=1251105166/26#26 date=1251210352
    You seem VERY SURE that your way is the correct way. Any hint as to how you came up with this? Just curious.
    Hmm, I guess just from some of the people that have taught me that have (IMO) pretty good street cred. WBC judges, WBC director, OZ barista champs & judges, cafe owners with more than a 1/2 of their life within the coffee industry, CoffeeSnobs ;) etc etc. And also, listening to what people want when I make their coffee. Like I said, Im no final word, I just choose to listen to those who seem to have a better idea than my own infant knowledge of coffee does. It doesnt mean my way is the "correct way" though :P.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4C474242574C414241405D45472E0 link=1251105166/26#26 date=1251210352
    My understanding of the history of the Flat White is completely removed from espresso, so your espresso ristretto comparison is off base.
    Hmm, not really. I was talking about people thinking they are one and the same drink. Just cos theyre short and black, a ristretto and espresso are different drinks(by definition and taste). Same way, just cos they have coffee and milk in the one cup/glass, lattes and flattys ARE DIFFERENT DRINKS (That, I am VERY sure of). Like lions and tigers are both cats, but different animals; blue and green are both colours but different; a Nespresso capsule quasi-coffee machine endorsed by George Clooney and a Kees made Speedster both make black drinks, but there is squat-all chance of me ever needing or wanting a Nespresso :P

    As far as being up to current/modern day standards (as flimsy as they obviously seem), using instant coffee is out of the question. Try and charge money for that (actually I seem to remember a CSer experiencing this). Also, Im sure lattes have evolved as our tastes, expectations, likes/dislikes or whatever evolve. Cappuccinos also have evolved over time (Im pretty sure) ;).

    When I judged at the aussie state comps earlier this year, I seem to remember one of the cappuccinos served to one of the other sensory judges making a comment on his score sheet that the milk made the drink more like a "flat white", all in gest of course.

    Like I said, its a good topic of conversation all the same. And already I can see some other topics being started.

    Cheers,
    Dan

  34. #34
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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Frankly I think there is far too much division amongst peoples opinions for there to be any single definitive answer.

    My advise -
    1. Put both on the menu - you could make two identical take away coffees, call one a flat-white and the other a latte and then ask a customer to taste them and pick their favourate - theyll imagine a difference.

    2. Decide on YOUR standard and stick with it. Everyone does everything their own way - some people say FWs have no foam, others say 5mm, others say 10mm... Whos to say which is correct?? You. No-one else.

    My flat-whites are proportionally stronger in a have-in, but no different in a take-away. None of our customers mind. In fact we have more customers who order no-foam-caps than we have order no-foam-flat-whites. I explain our have-ins have a stronger taste because they have less milk, but thats it.

    I also have a fairly non-standard definition about espresso - its ready when its ready. Not after 30 seconds, and not 30ml. I make the judgement largely on how it pours and how the colour looks. If you watch closely youll find there are a few distinct colour-changes during the extraction - colour-change no 1 = rist, colour change no 2 = espresso.

  35. #35
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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 7453594F5C4853493D0 link=1251105166/33#33 date=1251274210
    1. Put both on the menu - you could make two identical take away coffees, call one a flat-white and the other a latte and then ask a customer to taste them and pick their favourate - theyll imagine a difference.
    I can tell the difference.

    I check the depth of the foam before I take a sip.



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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    I find that making a flat white can be a bit daunting actually, every wait-staff Ive seen take one out, always ends up having it spill down the cup before they get to the customer. (recently actively making flat whites flatter today due to the creation of this thread) ;(

    Latte on the other hand has the forgiving 1cm froth, always 1cm or so for me really, Ive never had more then 10mm or less then 5mm. Otherwise I make it again and apologise.

  37. #37
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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 487578696E7B681A0 link=1251105166/35#35 date=1251279410
    I find that making a flat white can be a bit daunting actually, every wait-staff Ive seen take one out, always ends up having it spill down the cup before they get to the customer.
    Yeah I hear you. I actually pour my flat whites a bit below the rim of the cup so it has a bit of leeway. Lattes relatively flat across the top of the glass, and caps domed.

  38. #38
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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 0438253E343522373F34500 link=1251105166/34#34 date=1251277542
    I can tell the difference.

    I check the depth of the foam before I take a sip.
    Which works well according to your definition of a Flat-White. But irrelevant. My point is that people have their favourate drinks, they could be ignorant to the possibility that one is made exactly the same as another, if you tell them which is which chances are theyll say they prefer their usual order.

  39. #39
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    Re: Caffè Latte, not on the menu

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Well the majority opinion in this thread seems to agree with "my definition" as you called it.
    I dont think its irrelevant.
    Please explain why you think it is.



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