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Thread: Third wave coffee in The Age

  1. #1
    Senior Member greenman's Avatar
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    Third wave coffee in The Age

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Just browsing The Age web site and found this article:-

    http://www.theage.com.au/news/entertainment/epicure/2009/10/12/1255195738731.html

  2. #2
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    I just saw this too. ::)

    Cash for comment anyone? There is an article like this about St.Ali about once a fortnight. This was more an advertorial then it was a story about the growing thirdwave coffee movement.

    Furthemore I cant say I ever realised that I needed to have tatts and ride a fixy to be a coffee geek. I better put those on my to do list. :-?




  3. #3
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Its in the ENTERTAINMENT section.
    Yawn.

    Next.


  4. #4
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    In their defence at least they are out there pushing the boundries of what the general public know (or think they do) ;)

  5. #5
    sco
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    St Ali are just being media savvy. Creating news its a lot easier to write about than covering news that may occur (its a lot cheaper too) and St Ali certainly have a chic and hipster like culture to be publish worthy (of the age) so both parties win.

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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Just because it makes business sense for both parties involved does not make it a worthy story, especially when "the age" have provided coverage about St.Ali on numerous other occcasion.

    For me its just feels a somewhat repetitive story.

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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Glad im not the only one who thinks St Ali are getting very, very favourable coverage by the Age.

    Will be referred to Media Watch.

  8. #8
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age


    You guys can be a tough crowd sometimes. I would rather St.Ali got some press than giving it to some random coffee chain who buy full age ads.


    This part of the story was more interesting than the standard (required?) reporter banter that the article started with.


    Last month, Malatesta opened Outpost, an, er, outpost of St Ali in South Yarra, a locale that was crying out for good coffee. Fitted out in the same laboratory style as St Ali, the tiny cafe is quickly finding a keen following. Next month, the latest arm of St Ali, the Sensory Lab, is set to open in David Jones in the city. The Sensory Lab will differ from St Ali and Outpost in that the focus will be primarily on the beans. More Sensory Labs are planned for Australia and overseas, and Malatesta aims to set up St Ali hubs in Sydney, Tokyo, New York and London.

    No one can accuse Malatesta of taking his tucker lightly. Next year, hes launching The Plantation in Myer, where food will be provided by a yet-to-be announced chef and paired with coffee from St Ali in the manner of a high tea - high coffee, if you will.


    Big plans and a lot of hard work ahead. I tip my hat to the guys and gals with a vision and the passion to spread the good word on coffee from a back lane in South Melbourne to the centre of town and then the world.

    Kudos.

  9. #9
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Quote Originally Posted by 78575D40390 link=1255337708/7#7 date=1255360210
    I tip my hat to the guys and gals with a vision and the passion to spread the good word on coffee from a back lane in South Melbourne to the centre of town and then the world.

    Kudos.
    Pinky: Gee, Brain. What are we going to do tonight?
    The Brain: The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world.

  10. #10
    hazchem
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    so I guess we have to add 3rd Wave coffee purveyors to the list of people who have control of the media? ::)

    Seriously, at least the Age is interested in reporting on coffee. If Mr Malatesta happens to have a good PR agent who always says yes when asked for a quote and also makes sure that media outlets are informed of any developments within the St Ali business and media outlets are taking up the opportunity of reporting on it how is that a bad thing?

    Good on St Ali for growing their business and I wish them luck in their continued success. Im excited about the idea of the Sensory Lab and what is a clear effort on their part to take good coffee out of the back lane roastery and into the mainstream market.


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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    .. just wish it was in Sydney instead of Melb, myself ;)

    I just have an issue with the first/second/third wave thing at the moment. Were probably on wave 246 right now - coffee has been around a looonnng time.

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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Quote Originally Posted by 5D7278651C0 link=1255337708/7#7 date=1255360210
    You guys can be a tough crowd sometimes.
    No, I think youre too forgiving.

    1. St Ali became famous not because of its current owners. Those people have moved onto such places like Seven Seeds.
    2. St Ali is clearly getting favourable press.

    Complaint already lodged with Media Watch.

  13. #13
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Quote Originally Posted by 545558505A51390 link=1255337708/11#11 date=1255421502
    Quote Originally Posted by 5D7278651C0 link=1255337708/7#7 date=1255360210
    You guys can be a tough crowd sometimes.
    No, I think youre too forgiving.

    1. St Ali became famous not because of its current owners. Those people have moved onto such places like Seven Seeds.
    2. St Ali is clearly getting favourable press.

    Complaint already lodged with Media Watch.
    It might not have sounded like it but my "cash for comment" comment was tongue in cheek. I think its more a case of lazy journalism, St. Ali are a contact, The Age got sent a press release about opening up new stores and decided to run a full article on "Third wave" coffee rather then simply mentioning it in "the Ages" "Espresso" column on hospitality industry news.

    Perhaps I just never noticed it but Its kind of interesting that this kind of news is getting more attention lately. The move of Vue de Monde to Rialto towers also got some mainstream press recently.

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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    So much great coffee in Melbourne and the Age has no idea where else to go.
    Third wave is such a stupid term. I was over naked portafilters a long time ago and now its cool because of Slayer....Please!!!

    Third wave has a bad side too.... LAZY BARISTA THAT WALKS AROUND LOOKING GOOD. You should check them out.

    Im a firm believer of whats in a cup. Why write up or even talk about places that dont exist?



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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    So the fact that
    Quote Originally Posted by 7C7D70787279110 link=1255337708/11#11 date=1255421502
    Quote Originally Posted by 5D7278651C0 link=1255337708/7#7 date=1255360210
    You guys can be a tough crowd sometimes.
    No, I think youre too forgiving.

    1. St Ali became famous not because of its current owners. Those people have moved onto such places like Seven Seeds.
    2. St Ali is clearly getting favourable press.

    Complaint already lodged with Media Watch.
    So Seven Seeds is not getting media coverage?
    Do you agree that the sardine toasted sandwich is in your top 10 meals in Melbourne like Preston?
    New ideas and concepts happen in the industry that no one else is doing so it gets reported on. To the general populace, having these so called waves makes it easy for them to get their heads around the fact that there is a difference in coffee and it should be appreciated

  16. #16
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    No Dont tell the general community where all the good coffee is. then we willnot be able to go there as these places will be too crowdned! We snobs know about coffee and I think we shoul keep it to our selves. Dont let them take it to the rest of the world!

    ARRRRRRRRR no way Im keeping it tpo myself!
    Well I might consder sharing with my friends and family but if they tell anyone else I may be forces to eliminate them!

    ***Disclaimer** All commoents contained in this post contain sarcasim and were writen with toung in cheek.

    Regards
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    As long as St Ali and all of its business ventures are able to keep up the extremely high standards that it is noted for, then I am all for the ‘third wave’ charge. Its one thing to have the best beans on sale but if you can’t fill all the new barista positions with highly trained and experienced personal then it would be a shame to see that drop in quality for quantity. It’s already hard enough to get super baristas and the ones who are super either open their own place or go into training.

  18. #18
    Bon
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    St. Ali are doing an AWESOME job!!

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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Quote Originally Posted by 406F65784D010 link=1255337708/13#13 date=1255433133
    Third wave is such a stupid term
    ...and so last year.

    I think CoffeeSnobs home roasters are the 4th wave.

    Doing amazing coffee at home and having control of the variables during the roast/blend/rest.

    8-)

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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Quote Originally Posted by 230C061B620 link=1255337708/18#18 date=1256042486
    Quote Originally Posted by 406F65784D010 link=1255337708/13#13 date=1255433133
    Third wave is such a stupid term
    ...and so last year.

    I think CoffeeSnobs home roasters are the 4th wave.

    Doing amazing coffee at home and having control of the variables during the roast/blend/rest.

    8-)
    Is it? It makes perfect sense to me so long as people dont try and be to specific about what it means.
    For me it just reflects a inquisitive exploration away from traditional roasting and brewing methods. With that comes a consumer appreciation of varietal and a view that no one brand of coffee is superior.

    The issue with the term "third wave" is that using it to describe a cafe or roaster just feels a bit wanky. Imo it cuts against the grain as the origin of the movement came with a shedding of ego, a view that we know very little, (therefore lets forget the "rules" and follow our senses) Also it boxes people into something when the whole point is to think outside the square.

    When a journalist describes it as also having fashion and lifestyle attached; (becuase the wank factor wasnt high enough already ;)) it makes many people cringe and want to disasociate themselves from the term.


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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Is it such a stupid term? Sure theres a wank factor with it, but its easier than saying such and such a roaster/cafe is a "quality focussed business that seeks to use ethically traded coffee from microlots whenever possible" Third wave is much more succinct. Even if theres a wank factor with it.

    And declaring fourth wave would also seem a bit premature yet wouldnt it? I watched the St Ali segment on the morning show the other week and Sal was declaring coffee and food pairing as the fourth wave...cant really see it just yet myself. Not that food pairing is wrong, I just dont see it as another "wave"

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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Quote Originally Posted by 76747870707E7964170 link=1255337708/20#20 date=1256084679
    Is it such a stupid term? Sure theres a wank factor with it, but its easier than saying such and such a roaster/cafe is a "quality focussed business that seeks to use ethically traded coffee from microlots whenever possible" Third wave is much more succinct. Even if theres a wank factor with it.

    And declaring fourth wave would also seem a bit premature yet wouldnt it? I watched the St Ali segment on the morning show the other week and Sal was declaring coffee and food pairing as the fourth wave...cant really see it just yet myself. Not that food pairing is wrong, I just dont see it as another "wave"
    100% agree.

    The idea of 4th wave is premature. 3rd wave is still an infant movement, Ideas about pairing coffee with food etc are all just part of the exploration of coffee brewing and varietal that is 3rd wave.
    I dont think you can really claim further waves untill the accepted norm in cafes is to offer more then one blend/so of coffee. (not decaf)
    (imo the choice is what gets the consumer engaged which is also a crucial factor to the movement.)

  23. #23
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age


    I would like to be a 3rd waver - Im just having a little trouble getting my hair to grow so that I can carefully comb it over my eyes. ;D


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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Whats with the fixed gear bicycles? Does it mean I am not welcome in a 3rd wave cafe with my 10speed racer? *I had a laugh

  25. #25
    jasonscheltus
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Quote Originally Posted by 5D5F535B5B55524F3C0 link=1255337708/20#20 date=1256084679
    Is it such a stupid term? Sure theres a wank factor with it, but its easier than saying such and such a roaster/cafe is a "quality focussed business that seeks to use ethically traded coffee from microlots whenever possible" Third wave is much more succinct. Even if theres a wank factor with it.

    And declaring fourth wave would also seem a bit premature yet wouldnt it? I watched the St Ali segment on the morning show the other week and Sal was declaring coffee and food pairing as the fourth wave...cant really see it just yet myself. Not that food pairing is wrong, I just dont see it as another "wave"
    Actually "third wave" isnt more succinct. The term refers to the coffee industry in America, not Australia. There have not been two waves here, it doesnt make sense.

    “The first wave of American coffee culture was probably the 19th-century surge that put Folgers on every table, and the second was the proliferation, starting in the 1960s at Peet’s and moving smartly through the Starbucks grande decaf latte, of espresso drinks and regionally labeled coffee. We are now in the third wave of coffee connoisseurship, where beans are sourced from farms instead of countries, roasting is about bringing out rather than incinerating the unique characteristics of each bean, and the flavor is clean and hard and pure."

    While this isnt the only definition of the Third Wave - all definitions before the lazy journalism of The Age used a similar layout - Folgers then Starbucks then Nick Cho!

    Perhaps someone could explain to me how this term is relevant to Melbournes coffee scene?

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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Jason,

    Very interested in your opinion and knowledge. Considering what youre doing in Melbourne is not all that dissimilar to the third wavers in the States, isnt the term still relevant, even if our coffee histories are slightly different?

    If not, how would you sum up succinctly what youre about? The problem I find when describing to people is that if you say its Specialty Coffee, well everyone, even Starbucks claims they do specialty. Gourmet sounds super wanky. Direct trade is mistaken as Fair Trade (which has its own inherent problems when you tell them fair trade is unfair) and being a coffeesnob, well, youre just fussy and everyone else is normal.

    Really, what I understand third wave to be, is direct trade where possible, or at least traceability of the beans. Celebrating the individual flavours found in those Single Origins and taking care and interest in every stage to the cup. That seems to describe a lot of the better coffee establishments in Melbourne to me.

    -ACog

  27. #27
    jasonscheltus
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Andrew,

    Sorry to single you out like that! I did mean to address everyone, not just you of course!

    The problem I have with the term is that it refers to a movement (hence the wave) of cafes taking a new approach to the popular approach. Peets, who started roasting in house, offering fresh roasted coffee, was a new and different approach to instant coffee people were accustomed too. And then (for example) Murky Coffee started focussing on the origin of the coffee, and promoting that rather than a brand.

    Promoting a certain coffee roaster as "third wave" kinda puts them back to 2001-2002 in America. Thats almost 8 years ago that this stuff was new news. I really dont think the term is relevant to specialty coffee roasters in melbourne.

    And in terms of what we (yes, disclosure, I roast coffee in Melbourne) call ourselves? Specialty coffee roaster and retailer. Specialty coffee is define (by the SCAA) as coffee that cups 80 points or above. And Im okay with that definition.

    Again, sorry to make it sound like I was singling you out!

    Cheers, Jason



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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    I didnt feel singled out. My response was out of genuine interest, not offence.

    The thing is, I understand that the definition the SCAA gives is meaningful (currently boring myself with Ted Lingles cuppers handbook), but to the average Joe bloe drinking coffee, 80 points of what? Is that like 5 stars? They have no understanding that it means its been cupped (you did what?!) and evaluated to be of a particular standard.

    A wanky term, even if it has little relevance to where the industry is in Australia gives Joe public some understanding that this is different to any other retailer who has hessian bags adorning the walls and a roaster sitting idle in the shop front. I know of two such places in Melbourne, but I wouldnt pay a cent for what they call coffee.

  29. #29
    jasonscheltus
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Do you really think that people would understand the term "Third Wave" more easily than "Specialty"? Im not sure.

    I do know that if I see a restaurant with Three Michilin stars I am impressed, or if I see a restaurant in Melbourne with Three Hats, even though they are abstract terms they mean something. A score of 80+ in cupping does have a measurable meaning (even if equivalent ratings from different countries are sometimes debated) and it can be determined very quickly if the term is being misused.

    If someone asks me "Yeah sure mate, but 80 points of what?", I can tell them very easily and clearly.

    But since the term "third wave" has been bounced around, used (mostly incorrectly) to mean just about anything, I am very reluctant to use it as a tool to help people understand specialty coffee. And when they do ask "Yeah sure mate, but what does that even mean?", it will be difficult to explain that we used the term to draw similarities between cafes in America that pushed boundaries of quality back in 2002, and cafes here in Melbourne 2009.

    See what I mean?

  30. #30
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    I vote the next wave is called the Doug wave of coffee. Everyone else has something named after them, I want a slice of the fame pie ;D

  31. #31
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    Re: Third wave coffee in The Age

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Still paddling around in the kiddys pool over here in NZ ;)



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