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Thread: So heres another silly question about extraction.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Shotgun's Avatar
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    So heres another silly question about extraction.

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hello again, it seems Im just full of silly questions.

    My question is this... When pulling a shot the rule of thumb is 30seconds for 30ml, right?

    So is this 30 seconds from the very start of extraction or from when the coffee begins to pour? On my VBM there is often almost a 10 second delay before the actual pour begins so do I include that in the total 30 seconds or add it on for 40 seconds?

    It probably doesnt make that much difference but Im a pedantic sort of bloke.

    Thanks
    Tony

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    Re: So heres another silly question about extraction.

    As a "guideline" is 25-30ml in 30 sec however you will get variations with machinery and beans as to what tastes good. If you have preinfusion it will take longer than 30 secs. It is generally accepted (but some dont) that you take the 30 secs from when the pump starts not when the shot starts.

    I tend to pull my shots longer than 30secs but thats just what works for me, good luck it is a fun journey.

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    Senior Member askthecoffeeguy's Avatar
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    Re: So heres another silly question about extraction.

    agreed its from the word go but bearing in mind some machines will allow you to manually pre-infuse which means that you can run the shot longer and other machines are designed to run for longer

    larger baskets (say 20g and up) will also often allow you to run the shot for longer

    Cheers,

    ACg

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    Senior Member Shotgun's Avatar
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    Re: So heres another silly question about extraction.

    Thanks for that... Ill adopt that policy from here on in.
    Cheers
    Tony

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    A_M
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    Re: So heres another silly question about extraction.

    Quote Originally Posted by 615A5D4655475C320 link=1259029644/3#3 date=1259111745
    Thanks for that... Ill adopt that policy from here on in.
    Cheers
    Tony

    See your post here

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1258705607/27#27

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    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: So heres another silly question about extraction.

    Im a bit pedantic too Tony. I like to know exactly how something is supposed to work even if I then do it differently. Like others here, I watch my pour like a hawk as it tells you so much about how the coffee is going to taste. If the pour looks good, I will sometimes let it run for a bit longer, but experience tells you how much you are expecting in the cup and what speed/colour/consistency it should have been on the pour. Not a silly question.

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    Re: So heres another silly question about extraction.

    FWIW, on my housemates Vibiemme Super, we used to count from when the pump ramped up from 3-4bar (pre-infusion) to 9-10bar.

    Having said that, we ALWAYS cut our shots early because theyd tend to start blonding around 20-25 seconds. This is probably because we werent consistent/skilful enough in our dosing/tamping. The grinder (my Ascaso i1) is great, but may have been a limiting factor.

    Enough boring story though; my point is that 20/25/30/40 seconds CAN be missing the point. Things like blonding (ie. when the extraction suddenly takes on a pale colour) and your assessment of how it tastes are more important. I know thats not the essence of your question, however. ;)

    Cheers
    Stuart.

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    Senior Member Shotgun's Avatar
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    Re: So heres another silly question about extraction.

    Thanks Stuart

    Im getting reasonably ordinary results at present and I cant tell whats going on. There are so many b@#$%^y variables.

    I always use doubles and the resultant pucks look very good and solid and appear to have uniform extraction. My shots start after about 10 seconds after pulling the lever on my Domobar and initially look good, very dark, almost black in appearance. After about 20 seconds the extraction goes lighter and the flow of the extraction increases significantly.

    Im getting a reasonably good crema but the resulting coffee tastes like c@#p (at least to me now Ive cut my sugar in half)

    Id like to record a video of a shot and post it. Is that possible?

    Cheers
    Tony


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    A_M
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    Re: So heres another silly question about extraction.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4A71766D7E6C77190 link=1259029644/7#7 date=1260259594
    Thanks Stuart

    Im getting reasonably ordinary results at present and I cant tell whats going on. There are so many b@#$%^y variables.

    I always use doubles and the resultant pucks look very good and solid and appear to have uniform extraction. My shots start after about 10 seconds after pulling the lever on my Domobar and initially look good, very dark, almost black in appearance. After about 20 seconds the extraction goes lighter and the flow of the extraction increases significantly.

    Im getting a reasonably good crema but the resulting coffee tastes like c@#p (at least to me now Ive cut my sugar in half)

    Id like to record a video of a shot and post it. Is that possible?

    Cheers
    Tony
    Ok.. The 10 sec is part of ya over all time.. Thus Ya time ya shot from the moment ya hit the switch.... Remember 30Sec id an INDICATOR. *It is not an absolute...

    Thus again... *Where is ya 20sec time started from..

    1: If from when ya start to see coffee... Then you have reached ya 30Sec... * And I would expect it to go blond etc....

    2: Or from when you hit the switch ? IF 20Sec over all then there is channelling etc as 6 - 10Sec is about the infusion time I would expect... Giving about 20 second of visible coffee flow...

    What is the volume your getting at the end of teh shot ?

  10. #10
    Senior Member Shotgun's Avatar
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    Re: So heres another silly question about extraction.

    Firstly, I start the time from the time I pull the lever. If Im getting channeling, why are my pucks looking so good?

    Im getting about 60ml in 30 seconds but the last of it runs quickly and reasonably blonde.

    Im going to do a video (as soon as I can) and post it and let everyone have a crack at it.

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    A_M
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    Re: So heres another silly question about extraction.

    Quote Originally Posted by 407B7C6774667D130 link=1259029644/9#9 date=1260263134
    Firstly, I start the time from the time I pull the lever. If Im getting channeling, why are my pucks looking so good?

    Im getting about 60ml in 30 seconds but the last of it runs quickly and reasonably blonde.

    Im going to do a video (as soon as I can) and post it and let everyone have a crack at it.
    If ya start ya timing and after 10Sec the coffee starts to flow and after a further 10 seconds (20 Sec over all) ya blonding and gushing...

    Then Beans / Grind / Tamp..

    Would love to see the vid...

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    Re: So heres another silly question about extraction.

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Tony,

    Yeah, video would be informative. Especially if you happen to have a naked group handle...

    We had similar problems with the shots speeding up towards the end. I cant think of many reasons for a shot to speed up APART from channelling. For us that was the problem. Try dosing down a bit - we found the VBM wasnt a fan up-dosing and needed some room for the puck to expand. The two biggest improvements we made were i) getting a Pullman tamper - I think the custom fit is a huge benefit when edge-channelling is suspected - and ii) replacing the shower-screen. The screen looked fine, and was kept clean, but when we replaced it the results were much better... Whats more, that was going from the stock VBM screen to whatever Coffeeparts stocked for the VBM DS (it was different... but may or may not be genuine VBM).

    Video of your dosing/tamping technique might be insightful, too! Bit scary tho - everyone will have something to say about it, no doubt.

    Cheers
    Stuart.



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