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Thread: Extraction time

  1. #1
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    Extraction time

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi everyone

    Apologies in advance for this very newbie question.

    I have been told that a rule of thumb is to set up my grinder and dose appropriately so that I can pour 30 or 60mls (depending on single or double basket) in 30 seconds.

    (I always use a double basket as I find it much easier to get the right dose than with the single basket. Ive got a 3 year old Silvia and Rocky combo using the standard group handle, baskets and tamp that came with it. I usually drink double espressos :)

    I need to ask some very beginner questions:

    - When do I start timing the 30 seconds? I always assumed it was from when liquid started entering the cup, but I overheard that the 30 seconds begins from the time the brew button is pressed. Help!

    - I also hear that it should take 5-10 seconds for the liquid to start appearing after I hit the brew button. At the moment I would say this takes me about 3 secs. I activate the brew button for about 2 secs before I attach the group handle/basket in order to get the water flowing and remove some steam).

    - Finally, I hear that the puck should be springy and not too wet or dry afterward. After my pour the puck is very wet - lately I am getting a ~1mm layer of water on top of the puck that wont drain through.

    From all of this can I guess that my grind is too fine and that I am pouring for too long?

    Yes, my coffee is not too sweet right now :(

    Appreciated,
    D.E.M.

  2. #2
    A_M
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    Re: Extraction time

    Quote Originally Posted by 545F45525C55554340425543435F300 link=1264051783/0#0 date=1264051783
    Hi everyone

    Apologies in advance for this very newbie question.

    I have been told that a rule of thumb is to set up my grinder and dose appropriately so that I can pour 30 or 60mls (depending on single or double basket) in 30 seconds.

    (I always use a double basket as I find it much easier to get the right dose than with the single basket. Ive got a 3 year old Silvia and Rocky combo using the standard group handle, baskets and tamp that came with it. I usually drink double espressos :)

    I need to ask some very beginner questions:

    - When do I start timing the 30 seconds? I always assumed it was from when liquid started entering the cup, but I overheard that the 30 seconds begins from the time the brew button is pressed. Help!

    - I also hear that it should take 5-10 seconds for the liquid to start appearing after I hit the brew button. At the moment I would say this takes me about 3 secs. I activate the brew button for about 2 secs before I attach the group handle/basket in order to get the water flowing and remove some steam).

    - Finally, I hear that the puck should be springy and not too wet or dry afterward. After my pour the puck is very wet - lately I am getting a ~1mm layer of water on top of the puck that wont drain through.

    From all of this can I guess that my grind is too fine and that I am pouring for too long?

    Yes, my coffee is not too sweet right now :(

    Appreciated,
    D.E.M.
    You have answered ya own questions ;D see highlights.

    Do not get hung up on the numbers.. Its whats in the cup that counts.





  3. #3
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    Re: Extraction time

    Your grind is probably pretty close to the mark, but you are under-dosing a bit. *If you dose properly your puck will expand to the height of the shower screen and you wont get the soggy puck with 1mm of water on top. *Id suggest doing the 5c peice test people mention on here.

  4. #4
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    Re: Extraction time

    Quote Originally Posted by 50727D7D7C7D605940130 link=1264051783/2#2 date=1264380253
    *Id suggest doing the 5c peice test people mention on here.
    Can anyone provide a little more information on this test? TIA

  5. #5
    JJJ
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    Re: Extraction time

    Quote Originally Posted by 663C62697F683C6B0C0 link=1264051783/3#3 date=1264916402
    Can anyone provide a little more information on this test? TIA
    1) Fill your basket as you normally do and tamp
    2) Place a 5c coin on top of the tamped coffee
    3) Put your group handle into the machine as usual
    4) Remove the group handle
    5) Inspect your coffee

    If youve dosed the appropriate amount you should see a slight indentation from the coin on the coffee.
    If youve got no indentation youre underdosing, if the coin makes too much of an indentation (or you cant fit the group handle into the head) youre overdosing.

  6. #6
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    Re: Extraction time

    In addition to the info on the 5 cent test, as most Silvias have a screw or bolt head in the centre of the shower screen,
    dose till you can see a good impression of the screw/bolt head, but not so much that you have difficulty putting the group handle into the group head.

    - I time my pours from when I push the brew button,
    - Many suggest that 6-8 seconds before you see the start of the pour is good,
    - The difference in pour time from one step on Rocky to the next can be around 15 seconds, so the 6-8 seconds might vary from 4 or 5 to 10 or so depending on the beans, ambient temperature and relative humidity, etc.

  7. #7
    Senior Member tasadam's Avatar
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    Re: Extraction time

    Quote Originally Posted by 10273E3E3B2626520 link=1264051783/5#5 date=1264973048
    - The difference in pour time from one step on Rocky to the next can be around 15 seconds,
    Wow! I must test this some day. Im liking the beans Ive currently got way too much to waste a heap on testing this, but I must do it.
    Or maybe I shouldnt, for fear of that dreaded disease, "upgraditis", most painful in the hip pocket region, also affects the WAF depending on size (wife approval factor)... *;)
    I am very happy with my shots & pour time tho.

  8. #8
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    Re: Extraction time

    great thanks for that guys. I will give that a go!

  9. #9
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    Re: Extraction time

    Quote Originally Posted by 64534A4A4F5252260 link=1264051783/5#5 date=1264973048
    The difference in pour time from one step on Rocky to the next can be around 15 seconds
    Wow!

    Never experienced this degree of step change with my Rocky D/L... It regularly moved the extraction time by about 7-8 seconds for the same dose. I guess if youre noticing this amount of change, it would be a good argument to try the Tape Mod or the PVC Tube Mod for stepless operation...... :-?

    Mal.

  10. #10
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    Re: Extraction time

    Hi I have had my Silvia for a week and am getting inconsistent shots, I expected this at the beginning. One thing has surprised me is that my shots are nowhere near 30ml in 20-25 secs. It is all happening much faster. I did some tests. I started with a just used puck. I got 200ml of "water" in 20 secs. Then some more. With a group handle and no coffee 175ml in 20 secs , no group handle 190ml in 20 secs. It seems to me to be pumping too quickly does it not ??

    Thanks

  11. #11
    A_M
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    Re: Extraction time

    Quote Originally Posted by 0125272913182D3C3C4C0 link=1264051783/9#9 date=1265405067
    Hi I have had my Silvia for a week and am getting inconsistent shots, I expected this at the beginning. One thing has surprised me is that my shots are nowhere near 30ml in 20-25 secs. It is all happening much faster. I did some tests. I started with a just used puck. I got 200ml of "water" in 20 secs. Then some more. With a group handle and no coffee 175ml in 20 secs , no group handle 190ml in 20 secs. It seems to me to be pumping too quickly does it not ??

    Thanks
    No....

    More likely ya Beans / Grinder and Tamp are causing the issue....

  12. #12
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    Re: Extraction time

    Quote Originally Posted by 6A4E4C427873465757270 link=1264051783/9#9 date=1265405067
    no group handle 190ml in 20 secs
    Thats the correct free flow - I was originally told ~90ml in 10 sec but search CS for "ulka flow rate", somebody posted manufacturers specs of flow vs pressure http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1143118905/90#90- it was nominally 600ml/minute at 0 bar.

    AM has listed the prime suspects.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Shotgun's Avatar
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    Re: Extraction time

    I find it strange about the 30 sec extraction time. I dont know why or how but I find if my extraction is too fast, the resultant coffee is terrible.

    If however my extraction is slow and begins with a drip drip drip, Ive found that I can extract for a minute or so for my 60 (ish) mls and the resultant coffee usually tastes quite OK. I dont understand why, but it just seems to be.

  14. #14
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    Re: Extraction time

    If your pouring more than about 30 mls in 20 seconds then its going to be more on the sour side and lacking body and mouth feel. This is a similar effect to an extraction thats not hot enough.

    if your pouring 20mls in 30 seconds then you venture into overextracted areas. Here you will find such tastes as burnt rubber and black toast and an aftertaste that needs rinsing from your pallet. The same sort of tastes you would find with a machine thats runnig too hot.

    Of course this is all dependant on basket size and temps..tamping and so on...

    Each to their own of course :)

  15. #15
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    Re: Extraction time

    I have tasted some shots which I have thought was going to be badly over extracted but they have been ok, totally depends on machine setup, your techniqe, basket size and taste buds. As they say its whats in the cup that counts.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Shotgun's Avatar
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    Re: Extraction time

    Well, I pulled a shot this morning for my wife and I must have over dosed because the extraction went about 55 seconds. The resultant shot looked good in the cup with good medium dark crema that was a tad motley.

    I did the milk thing and gave it to my wife and she remarked after a couple of sips that she thought it was one of the nicest coffees shes tasted. (and if you knew my wife she douesnt hand out compliments for the sake of it ;D)

    So as I earlier concluded, I dont seem to have too much of a problem extracting longer than 30 secs as long as I stop before blonding. Not the case with too fast extraction though. Tastes like c**p.
    Cheers
    T

  17. #17
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    Re: Extraction time

    Hi all

    Im still having problems with my puck (theres nothing worse than that). Theres always about 1mm of water left on top after extraction and the puck is quite soft.

    Some details:
    - It takes about 3-4 seconds for the pour to start coming through after I hit the brew button
    - I am filling the (double shot) basket right up and levelling it off at the top.
    - When I insert the basket into the espresso machine the group handle turns around to about 5pm and there is a reasonable imprint of the shower screen nut in the grinds if I remove it and have a look. (I have a 3 year old Silvia).
    - I get 60mls of pour in about 25 seconds from the time I hit the brew button.
    - My Rocky grinder is set on 6.

    Does this all suggest that I should grind the beans finer?

    Also, can someone please explain why there is water left on top of the puck afterward? Does it mean that there is a gap between the top of the puck and the showerhead after pouring, and this gap is not supposed to be there?

    Ta,
    D.E.M.

  18. #18
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Extraction time

    Why do you care about 1mm of water?
    What do you mean by soft puck?

    "I get 60mls of pour in about 25 seconds from the time I hit the brew button." - Sounds perfect.

    "Does this all suggest that I should grind the beans finer?"
    No; finer will get you more water on top and less than 60ml in 25 seconds.

    If the coffee tastes good it sounds to me like you are looking for a problem that doesnt exist.

    Am I missing something?


  19. #19
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Extraction time

    A little water on top of the puck is neither here nor there DEM... ;)

    Sometimes, if Im a little slow in removing the Group Handle after pulling a shot, a little water may accumulate on top of the puck. Other times if I deliberately under-dose and grind a little finer than usual, there is occasionally a little pool of water on top. Id hate to try and guess how much though, probably 1-2ml..... :-? Discarded pucks are still quite firm and homogeneous though...

    It never affects the quality in the cup though and thats whats important in the end, so stop worrying and just enjoy your coffee..... 8-)

    Mal.

  20. #20
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    Re: Extraction time

    Good read...always is.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Luke_G's Avatar
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    Re: Extraction time

    If your still worried about that 1mm of water on top of your puck then try updosing... do this by collapsing the coffee ing the basket once or twice when it is around 3/4 full then adding to the top THEN leveling off and tamping. You should also make the grind a little bit courser when doing this to keep the extraction time similar.

    As for Shotguns wife enjoying an overextracted shot?...i have an old school roaster friends who loves exactly that. Pouring 90mls of water through one puck for his long black and cappucinos with mountains of froth on top. He will even pour boiling water on top of his very finely ground coffee in a plunger?!?!?

    My point? All though he loves these methods for himself, he always cups correctly and roasts accordingly to what the public expects. These are reffered to as industry standards and are always open to interpertation.

    As AM would say ...2 + something = something? I had a laugh

  22. #22
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    Re: Extraction time

    Couldnt agree more with Luke on that one, everyone enjoys coffee differently in one way or another and if you like the end result then thats all that counts. Sometimes people get hung up on "the way it should be" and forget about whats right in front of them... good coffee. As for the water on the puck try removing the group handle straight after the shot and see how it is (I think thats what Mal meant).
    Happy drinking!

  23. #23
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Extraction time

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    [QUOTE=5147444651474751506B5D476B56514740340 link=1264051783/21#21 date=1267825454As for the water on the puck try removing the group handle straight after the shot and see how it is (I think thats what Mal meant).[/QUOTE]
    Yep.... ;D

    Mal.



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