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Thread: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

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    A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I couldnt get to the usual sponsor to buy beans so wife bought a 250g bag of "cafe blend" beans from a coffee joint in Camberwell to keep us going. "Oh yes" they said. "Just roasted". Price worked out at $32 a kilo.

    The beans were that stale they crumbled and turned to dust when I tried to grind them.. Not even a whiff of an aroma or anything. They even stank like dust.

    I couldnt believe, that in this day and age a professional roaster in a dedicated coffee shop in one of the busiest strips in Melbourne actually sold this rubbish.

    Well, I decided take them back tomorrow and ask for our money back. Very quietly and nice I will.

    However, Mrs Pigwart said dont bother, they obviously dont care and to just throw em out.

    Now I dont know what to do.


  2. #2
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Take it back, express your concerns and see if they care. I would be surprised if they didnt refund the unused portion at least.

    It might be a quality control issue (junior did the roasting, senior didnt check) or it might be what most of their customers like?

    Plenty of site sponsors sell roasted coffee as do I ( in BeanBay ).
    ...far safer than a random wander down the street!

    ;)

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    How revolting! Please take them back - you cant let this coffee crime go unpunished! Here in Adelaide my favourite roasters label their bags with the roasted on date - on the rare occasion that I buy brown beans I always make sure the actual date is printed on the bag, preferably (like at Coffee Barun) by hand. (I have yet to convince them to write roasting time, ambient temperature, wind direction and humidity on there too)

    These Camberwell cads need to know how they let you down in your hour of need (for caffeine) ;)

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Sounds like a good enough reason to get yourself some of the green stuff from Andy and roast your own ;)

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 6567746F75373F3033060 link=1315918777/0#0 date=1315918777
    I couldnt get to the usual sponsor to buy beans so wife bought a 250g bag of "cafe blend" beans from a coffee joint in Camberwell to keep us going. "Oh yes" they said. "Just roasted". Price worked out at $32 a kilo.

    The beans were that stale they crumbled and turned to dust when I tried to grind them.. Not even a whiff of an aroma or anything. They even stank like dust.

    I couldnt believe, that in this day and age a professional roaster in a dedicated coffee shop in one of the busiest strips in Melbourne actually sold this rubbish.

    Well, I decided take them back tomorrow and ask for our money back. Very quietly and nice I will.

    However, Mrs Pigwart said dont bother, they obviously dont care and to just throw em out.

    Now I dont know what to do.
    I have to say I am very surprsied by the replies in this thread.

    Too often, forum participants seem to rush in to give one sided support and feed the indignance of the poster, instead of taking a more unbiased and very probably more helpful (to all parties) view.

    I have been in the coffee game all my life and I have never, ever come across anything like "...The beans were that stale they crumbled and turned to dust when I tried to grind them.. Not even a whiff of an aroma or anything. They even stank like dust...."*

    If this is the case I for one would like to get a sample shipped to me to verify first hand that this could happen.

    You could say a lot of things about stale or foul coffee, but the above simply does not strike any chords with me.

    Ive seen this kind of thing in CS before and said nothing, but if participants are really here to learn about all things coffee, then they also need to know when something they write didnt make sense.

    In the absence of any more information the only correct answer then, is to take the coffee back to the place of purchase and respectfully seek assistance.* Not outwardly to demand money back, but to find out what the problem is, period.

    A professional supplier will take the enquiry seriously and spend as much time as is necessary to work it out.*

    You can throw the beans away and say nothing, and then you didnt learn anything ( never mind the supplier).

    Rgdz,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.



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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!


    I agree that you should take these beans back to the supplier and discuss the problem with them.

    This type of situation would be somewhat alleviated if all coffee roasters put a "roasted on" date on their beans. What reason does a commercial coffee roaster have not to include this information, unless theyre trying to mislead their customers?

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Quote "...they said "Just roasted"...."

    *********************************

    Date stamps are a separate issue.

    An unscrupulous supplier could just as easily place an incorrect date on a label, as verbally tell someone a porky over the counter.

    My own roastery does not put roasted dates on the packets, but we have a policy statement on the wall that says what our policy is on fresh coffee and of course we tell people when they ask, rendering a date stamp superfluous and....that means no one is hiding anything or trying to quote "...mislead their customers..."

    There needs to be a bit of trust on both sides of the counter....

    Rgdz,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Attilio, I agree mostly with what you say. The problem is that a customer experience is not always as simple someone walking into your business and buying coffee.

    If it were my business I would print a "roast date" as much for the customer as for me.

    Example: I buy a kilo of roasted beans and take them to work. I use 500 grams and then put the bag in the cupboard where it sits for 3 months. Joe comes along and finds the beans (with your brand and logo on the packet) and uses the coffee to find that it tastes like crap, not knowing when it was roasted. Joe walks away with a mental note not to ever buy coffee from "named brand".

    Would a roast date not serve to protect both you and the consumer?

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 0A3E293F24130F232A2A29294C0 link=1315918777/4#4 date=1315972105

    I have to say I am very surprsied by the replies in this thread.

    Too often, forum participants seem to rush in to give one sided support and feed the indignance of the poster, instead of taking a more unbiased and very probably more helpful (to all parties) view.

    I have been in the coffee game all my life and I have never, ever come across anything like "...The beans were that stale they crumbled and turned to dust when I tried to grind them.. Not even a whiff of an aroma or anything. They even stank like dust...."*

    If this is the case I for one would like to get a sample shipped to me to verify first hand that this could happen.

    You could say a lot of things about stale or foul coffee, but the above simply does not strike any chords with me.

    Ive seen this kind of thing in CS before and said nothing, but if participants are really here to learn about all things coffee, then they also need to know when something they write didnt make sense.

    In the absence of any more information the only correct answer then, is to take the coffee back to the place of purchase and respectfully seek assistance.* Not outwardly to demand money back, but to find out what the problem is, period.

    A professional supplier will take the enquiry seriously and spend as much time as is necessary to work it out.*

    You can throw the beans away and say nothing, and then you didnt learn anything ( never mind the supplier).

    Rgdz,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.

    Well, to start with, I was not indignant nor was I trolling for biased replies to my thread starter. I had no intention then or now to name and shame anyone as this type of cheap tabloid behavior is of no interest to me.

    It was just a conversational thread that intended to convey my surprise that coffee that stale would be sold as fresh.

    Also, if I knew I was going to be accused of dishonesty and fantasising I would have gladly kept the beans and posted them to whoever was interested. And thank you Attilio, for taking the time to tell me how to behave whilst returning the beans. Otherwise I would have screamed, farted loudly and generally been obnoxious.

    I did return the beans. The young attendant had very little knowledge about anything to do with coffee and said they were roasted last week. Which was obviously rubbish. She was the only one there.

    There was nothing else to be gained except to graciously accept the offered refund.

    I await with tttrembling tamper to learn more along my coffee journey.

    And hopefully Attilio your chords are struck tunefully in the future.



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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 020013081250585754610 link=1315918777/8#8 date=1315982289
    It was just a conversational thread that intended to convey my surprise that coffee that stale would be sold as fresh.
    So, its a conversational thread as long as people agree with your approach and opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by 020013081250585754610 link=1315918777/8#8 date=1315982289
    The young attendant had very little knowledge about anything to do with coffee
    How condescending of you. :P



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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 737A642120100 link=1315918777/7#7 date=1315981796
    If it were my business I would print a "roast date" as much for the customer as for me.
    Some of the majors roast origins into silos and then create blends from the origins. If those origins happen to be roasted on different days, which day do you choose to stamp the bag with?

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Chris, you make a very good point but I am sure that someone far more intelligent than I could come up with a reasonable solution to this problem.

    How is the Date of Manufacture/Use By Date for foods with multiple ingredients and components worked out?




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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 6670757564666A63636060050 link=1315918777/9#9 date=1315983135

    So, its a conversational thread as long as people agree with your approach and opinion.*
    Nothing to do with approach or opinion. It was the immediate assumption I was, at best exaggerating. I wasnt. It was not my opinion that the coffee was stale. The coffee was stale.


    How condescending of you.* :P
    It was not condescending. It was an observation. At no time did I adopt an air of superiority, defensiveness or* condescension. Characteristics you are obviously well versed in.

    Anyways - this thread is too wobbly for me. Im outa here. Oh all right. Im being defensive.

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Wow....Nastiness again :(

    Can we have a mod and mop and bucket in aisle 12 please?

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    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 020B155051610 link=1315918777/11#11 date=1315986677
    Chris, you make a very good point but I am sure that someone far more intelligent than I could come up with a reasonable solution to this problem.

    How is the Date of Manufacture/Use By Date for foods with multiple ingredients and components worked out?


    Foods with multiple ingredients have a best by or use by date - not a made on date.
    To figure out the best by or use by date usually entails having a dedicated Quality Assurance area that do MANY tests on the product in question, over a period of time. And having worked for a confectionary maker in the past, I can tell you it is a constant process.

    For a snob like me, coffee is a different story.
    It is still drinkable for quite a lot longer than many of us would ever keep it. This is why we lean towards a roasted on date, but as you said, Chris makes a good point when it comes to component roasting.

    I dont think there is a simple answer from a commercial perspective. I just say try it. If you like it, give them your repeat business and if you didnt, let them know why and see what happens.

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Deary me!

    I think you will find that the first reply I posted is directed in the main to the other respondents, and not the author of the thread.

    Also, I dont recall accusing anyone of dishonesty or fantasy or of being some kind of troll, and if someone gained that (false) impression, it certainly wasnt intended.

    My replies may sometimes appear blunt, but they are always intended to be helpful. The description of stale coffee given, doesnt make sense to me. I am sorry if that offends, but it doesnt do any good for people in these sites to pander to each other instead of calling a spade a spade. I bring some expertise to the table, and if some dont want to "take advantage" of that I cant help it, and it is after all a public forum. Also please note I dont hide behind anonymous forum names and I stand behind everything I write.

    If the mods think this reply is too direct for public consumption and offends the sensitivities, please let me know and I will remove it for the greater good.

    Hope that helps.

    Rgdz,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    I live near Camberwell and Caffe Romeo in Balwyn North roast their own beans so I go there in emergencies.

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 6E5A4D5B40776B474E4E4D4D280 link=1315918777/15#15 date=1315991368
    Deary me!

    I think you will find that the first reply I posted is directed in the main to the other respondents, and not the author of the thread.
    But you quoted the original poster??

    However, I dont mind your "blunt" approach to letting folks know how things are from a roasters perspective. In this case, it would have been more interesting to hear what you think might have been the problem with these beans, even if you have never experienced such a thing, rather than telling the OP how to return them and he did say he would return them "Nice and quietly" in his original post.

    Ok...so, sit back folks and lets just read the words and not between the lines.

    I would counsel that everyone should read their post in preview mode and then read again before clicking that button to post.

    I dont think that I need to "mop" up anything here because what I dont see is any nastiness and I have read the posts several times over. Nastiness implies a lot and that lot is not in this thread as far as I can see.

    We are all adults here and I dont think you need a moderator to adjust your attitudes!! So, lets hear what you pro roasters really think was the problem with these beans!!* :) ;)


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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 62575A5D69755950505353360 link=1315918777/10#10 date=1315984872
    Some of the majors roast origins into silos and then create blends from the origins. If those origins happen to be roasted on different days, which day do you choose to stamp the bag with?
    In a previous life I spent a few years working as a Brand Ambassador for a leading Scotch Whisky distillery where the age of what is in the bottle is what bragging rights are based on. By law the age of a blended whisky was determined by the youngest whisky in the blend. For example, it wouldnt matter if 80% of the blend was from an 80 year old cask... if there were even a wee dram of something younger, lets say a splash of 12 year old spirit, then the blend would have to be labelled a 12 year old.

    In the world of coffee bragging rights run in the opposite direction with younger and fresher being preferred. Therefore, it would seem to make sense to turn the whisky labelling law upside down and dating a blended coffee on the basis of the age of the oldest coffee in the blend.

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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 06322533281F032F26262525400 link=1315918777/4#4 date=1315972105
    I have been in the coffee game all my life and I have never, ever come across anything like "...The beans were that stale they crumbled and turned to dust when I tried to grind them.. Not even a whiff of an aroma or anything. They even stank like dust...."
    Just wondering, but couldnt this possibly be the result of someone taking the roasting WAY too far... to the point where the moisture contenet was practically nil and where the sugars and phenolic compounds and esthers had been baked out of existence? Beans taken to that extreme would quite easily crumble to dust and lack any significant aromas.

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    Senior Member bennett's Avatar
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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 40505C5C47526C54525F330 link=1315918777/17#17 date=1315994867
    We are all adults here and I dont think you need a moderator to adjust your attitudes!! So, lets hear what you pro roasters really think was the problem with these beans!!
    The only thing I have ever roasted in my life is beef, pork and lamb. ;D

    However I am willing to offer an opinion even though I have never roasted coffee. Attilio might be onto something. The beans may well have been stale, but surely from the description of the OP they could also have been MASSIVELY over-roasted.


    Quote Originally Posted by 5052415A40020A0506330 link=1315918777/0#0 date=1315918777
    The beans were that stale they crumbled and turned to dust when I tried to grind them.. Not even a whiff of an aroma or anything. They even stank like dust.
    If they turned to dust on grinding and had no aroma it could well be a roasting issue as opposed to stale beans. Just a guess. I have occasionally used stale beans in an emergency and I was still able to get a decent grind and reasonable extraction - it just had that ashen taste that stale coffee has.

    Still doesnt make it excusable and should be returned. I would be interested - like scoota gal - to hear from some pro roasters....

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 132C2B2C3124363620450 link=1315918777/18#18 date=1315996564
    Therefore, it would seem to make sense to turn the whisky labelling law upside down and dating a blended coffee on the basis of the age of the oldest coffee in the blend.
    Makes perfect sense to me!


    Java "Entropy at work!" phile

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Hello Scoota,

    thanks for your level headed approach to the concerns at hand.

    This is the first opportunity Ive had to get on here today, and there isnt enough time to make any comments (just to write this and go...). As you can appreciate it can take some time to post replies.

    There is one thing however....as no one but the supplier (and of course the client if he is able to talk to someone with some responsibility at the suppliers) knows what is or is not the go with the coffee purchased, everything else is just academic discussion. That was the point of me not making any comment other than to say the description of the beans / grinds does not strike me as indicating staleness.....

    Ill check back in later and throw in some "academic" scenarios as it seems there is some interest and let me make the point quite clearly, I also dont see my job as being to help other roasters improve whatever they are doing.* For that I am afraid they will need to do their own homework as all the rest of us have done.....

    And remember, anything I may come up with is still only a guess no matter how educated, in this scenario.

    Rgdz,
    A.


  24. #24
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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Thanks Attilio,

    I sure do appreciate your input and will be interested to hear your comments re WWWWTR (What Went Wrong With This Roast!?!* :D). I dont think that comments re this will be giving away how to roast tips, rather, we are just after the insight of someone who might know how this could result in dust!

    I for one can attest to well, lets just say...caramelizing a roast in the past. In my defence I will say it was on an untried roaster at the time that I had never before seen or used in my life! I couldnt figure out how to stop the darn thing and well...stuff happens! ;D As to the result, it was um, very oily and quite dark! If it turned to dust, you might have to ask Andy about that as I believe that it went back to Geelong with him as a souvenir of Scoots roasting ability! As a roaster, I make a very good barista and am more than happy to stick with my day job!! ;D

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Hello again.

    Frankly, having had some more time to think on this I am still drawing no logical conclusions as to why the coffee could be as described. There simply isnt enough information, and the only way would be to actually take a look at the sample.

    Also, the obvious inference here has been that there is something wrong with the beans as roasted, and / or, the roaster has done something wrong. But given I am unable to draw any conclusion from the description of the beans except that it doesnt help me to draw a conclusion,* I feel the readers need to sit back and take stock......innocent until proven guilty....we dont know if any roaster did anything wrong....all we know is some shop keeper has employed a shop assistant that didnt know enough about the product to be able to make an observation when the coffee was returned, and refunded the money.

    So now perhaps we know the roaster did do something wrong but it isnt what people thought in the first place...it is that they supplied coffee to a shopfront and from there they lost control of their product eventuating in them having to give hard earned dollars back to a client.

    And for the life of me I cant understand why a well trained professional shop assistant wouldnt, when faced with a client returning a product, offer money back IN ADDITION TO offering to replace it with something else. Thats professionalism in business of any kind, not restricted to the vending of coffee beans, and usually converts an aggrieved client into a long time happy client.

    And again, this is why I preferred in the first place not to venture an opinion on any wrongful roasting because there may not have been any (wrongfiul roasting).

    Bruce, in my opinion freshly roasted coffee that has been badly roasted (overly slow OR fast roasted OR whatever), as long as it hasnt been burned to a crisp, will still produce quite usable if lacklustre coffee beans that will behave just like any other coffee beans but lack character and exhibit woody or "muddy" (indistinct) characteristics. They will still have some aroma, will behave reasonably normally in a grinder (given you will have to find the right grind as with any other offering) and produce a coffee with crema on top.

    Perhaps other professional roasters in the group can offer their opinion?

    Rgdz,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Attilio

    This thread has been nothing if not entertaining and I admire your determination in staying out of ShockJock territory. You should parody it tho - it can be fun!

    My very first visit to Cosmorex is this Sat - I work in town and Sat junior soccer has meant Ive been pining for a while.

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    You will be made most welcome. Come "early" (we open at 9am) and it is usually quiet for the first hour Sat morn so that is the best time if you want to take a look around and get a cuppa and talk to someone. It gets very busy after that.

    I wont be in this weegend and if I can find out who is on shift I will get you a contact name.

    Rgdz,
    Attilio.

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    An idea: The OP may have been given some dodgy decaff by mistake???

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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    This has tickled my curiosity.

    Any chance you can throw up a well taken photo of the beans Mr Pigwart?


  30. #30
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    Re: A coffee rage thread. AAAARRGGG!!!

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Not so long ago I purchased some beans over the counter from a reputable roaster who smiled and happily charged me for them - when I got home and ran them through the machine I knew something was wrong - checked the useby date and discovered that they coffee was nine months old :(

    Lesson learned - I now mostly roast at home for my own use - that way I always know how old the coffee is and when its most likely to be drinking in its sweet spot

    Also Im far more cautious now as to where I get my brown beans from - and I always triple check the roasted on date!



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