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Thread: Go on, tell me Im mad

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    Go on, tell me Im mad

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Greetings all,

    Im writing a piece for a newspaper about stovetops. In it Im going to argue that I can make as good a cappuccino with my $15 stovetop moka pot and a hand frother -- plus a little know-how -- as you can with your $1000 machine.

    Any comments?

    Pique19
    "Its all in the wrist action"



  2. #2
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Hi pique19 and welcome to CS!

    In the main, I agree with your argument with just one catch...you need a good coffee grinder!


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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    But not as good as my $2000 machine.

    Just kidding.

    Assuming you use fresh beans.....and as Dennis has already said, youll need a good grinder.



    Dont forget to post the article when its done.

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    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    And dont make mistakes like this reporter did ;)
    eg LM FB 80 roaster

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1213660127

    KK

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Hi,

    might be worth your time to have a talk to Jack at Sorrentina (one of the sponsors). If the article was heading down the path of good coffee on a budget then also consider coffee syphons in the mix of gear. Jack has several stove top types in his range as well.

    If you want to drop the grinder expense from the article then talk about finding a local roaster and buy small quantities of preground if you have to as opposed to stupormarket beans with a shelf life of 3 years :(

    Or roast your own beans and hand grind for the full experience ;)

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Quote Originally Posted by pique19 link=1221702438/0#0 date=1221702438
    .... I can make as good a cappuccino with my $15 stovetop moka pot and a hand frother -- plus a little know-how -- as you can with your $1000 machine.
    First, you are discussing a food product, so by definition, the outcome is totally subjective. For your theory to be proven true in your article, all you need to do is say that it tastes better to you. Either method can make a good or bad cappuccino, but a "real" espresso machine will make a superior beverage when used properly. While a stove-top machine can make an acceptable drink, there is just no way it can extract to the extent that an espresso machine can.

    I will challenge you and say that I can beat your stove-top machine with a $30 USD Aeropress and a hand frother, and get more consistent results with a whirly-blade grinder! ;) I call ;D

  7. #7
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    , you are discussing a food product, so by definition, the outcome is totally subjective. For your theory to be proven true in your article, all you need to do is say that it tastes better to you. Either method can make a good or bad cappuccino, but a "real" espresso machine will make a superior beverage when used properly. While a stove-top machine can make an acceptable drink, there is just no way it can extract to the extent that an espresso machine can.
    So that means that the only way to prove or disprove your claim
    Is to conduct a side by side comparison taste test by a recognized coffee judge
    Are you willing to do that??
    KK

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    I say go for it...

    Just dont complain if/when you are mocked like the other poorly researched journo was.

    If you honestly think a cappuccino will be just as good out of a stove top, it would be better to consider writing an article about poorly developed palates and where to educate them... ;)

    2mcm

  9. #9
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    And what know-how would that be?

    Cos Id argue, like many here, that the grinder and beans are far more important than any machine, in which case youre actually misrepresenting your comparison between the moka pot and the espresso machine.

    If you were planning on using stale rubbish from the supermarket, then I dont really care if you can make something that tastes as good as a coffee made from said stale rubbish from an espresso machine - theyll both taste disgusting and most of us here wouldnt drink either!

    Secondly, how are you heating the milk? I find microwaved and/or saucepan heated milk tastes absolutely awful, and so texture aside, Id very much doubt youd be able to produce the sweetness of expertly steamed milk.

    And thirdly, according to whom will it taste as good as a properly made espresso shot? Very subjective, and depends totally on what the individual considers good.

  10. #10
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Hey.
    The comments are now getting a little...acidic (I wanted a coffee related term).
    I say we encourage pique a little more rather than put them down so much.

    The more people that know about good coffee the better.
    We need to help the journos learn the difference.

  11. #11
    mwatt
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1221702438/0#9 date=1221716567
    Hey.
    The comments are now getting a little...acidic (I wanted a coffee related term).
    I say we encourage pique a little more rather than put them down so much.

    The more people that know about good coffee the better.
    We need to help the journos learn the difference.
    Hmm, I spose, but I actually thought their tone was a little cocky and know-it-all. :P

    Either way, at the end of the day all that matters is whats in the cup, and if you like what you taste, its all good.

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Youre perfectly right. Michelle. The tone was meant to be a little cocky so Id get a response. Clearly I did!

    The way the piece is going is exactly along the lines a lot of the posters here have mentioned -- especially the comment that taste is subjective and what I think is good might not be what anyone else thinks is good.

    Ill be writing about how when I started out researching the piece there was so much I didnt know that I didnt know. Will talk about grinding, milk, roasting, tamping, water (quality and temperature) etc.

    Its becoming a bit of a "journey into the world of real coffee" piece. I think a lot of people -- non-snobs, too -- will find it interesting.

    Its a way off yet, but will be keen to see what you all think. Will post when its published so you can pick it to pieces. *:)

    pique19
    "Its all in the wrist action"



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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Get yourself a guinea pig for a blind taste test.
    A fellow journo will do.

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Your attitude displays the fundamental ignorance, lack of respect and lack of research that is symptomatic of mainstream media reports on coffee. *Given that the public relies on journalists to provide them with reliable information, I find this attitude totally reprehensible. *

    I very much hope that you either take this as an opportunity to deliver a well though-out, informative and well-researched piece, or that you deliver a truly shocking piece that hinders your future career prospects - either way, the public will be better off and I think that the first option would be preferable.

    Your proposition comprises of two parts:

    (a) the beverage that you produce using a moka pot and a milk frother qualifies as a cappuccino; and

    (b) it tastes better than what you can make using a $1000 machine.

    I think that it is implicit in your argument that you propose to draw an actual comparison, based on real experience. *Otherwise, why should your readers care what you have to say?

    With regards to your first proposition (a), you need to come up with a definition and I am happy to take some steps to make up for what appears from your post to be your laziness, incompetence or simply an odd way of asking for pointers. *

    The problem is that there really isnt much of a formal definition adopted in Australia. *Colloquially, I guess that what most cafes serve as an in-house cappuccino consists of an espresso shot, frothed milk of a thicker texture than they would use for a latte or a flat white, topped with a dusting of chocolate powder and served as a 210mL beverage. *For a takeaway cappuccino, this will stay more or less the same, but more milk will be added to make it a 240mL beverage, as this is the standard size of a small or regular takeaway cup (dont ask me why). *The AASCA adopts the WBC rules definition of a cappuccino, which is a single espresso shot, served in a 150 to 180mL cup without anything on top. *The WBC cappuccino has at least 1cm of foam on the top, displays a colour combination of milk and coffee on the top, with crema all around the edges, has a smooth and possibly glass-like appearance and is topped with a symmetrical design. *The Italian Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano defines a cappuccino as 25mL of INEI certified espresso and 125mL of milk containing a minimum of 3.2% protein and 3.2% fat, served in a 150-160mL cup at a temperature around 55 degrees celcius.

    That should be more than enough information for you to be able to research the definition of cappuccino. *If you struggle with that, I suggest that you contact a small child for help. *All of the standards referred to above incorporate espresso as the coffee component of the drink, so you will need to come up with a definition for that. *

    The next step is to compare the drink that you produce with the appropriate definition of cappuccino and to determine if it qualifies. *I would be surprised if it does. *You will note that all of the definitions referred to above require you to use espresso as the base. *Moka coffee is not espresso, hence the drink that you are creating is not a cappuccino. *This means that even if you consider that it tastes as good as a cappuccino made with an espresso machine, you must concede that your argument is wrong because the drink that you produce does not meet the basic criteria of being a cappuccino.

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    With regards to your second proposition (b), you have not provided an adequate definition of what your moka pot creation is being compared against. *

    As others have mentioned, whether or not that will taste any good depends entirely on whether or not the machine is paired with good coffee, a good grinder and a competent operator. *Given the conceptual lack of understanding that your post demonstrates in classifying your stovetop drink and the espresso machines product as cappuccino, I suggest that you need to find someone else to produce something with which a comparison will be drawn.

    It would be helpful to your readers if you could specify the criteria on which your assessment is based. *The WBC rules contain guidelines that may assist.

    I also dont understand what a $1000 machine means and how that is relevant. *What machine is available at that price range? *As TG mentioned above, a top of the line espresso machine costs more than that. *Why is the $1000 machine relevant to your reader? *Why not a $500 machine, a $250 machine or a $2500 machine? *And why have you not included the cost of a grinder in with that? *Is it simply because, as your post indicates, you dont know enough about the subject matter to understand the relevance of a grinder?

    Then we get to what others have mentioned - who is doing the tasting? *To my mind, there are two possible approaches. *You can try to find out what your typical person or your readership thinks, or you can try to find out what people in the coffee industry think. *The difference between the two is simply that a person who is in the coffee industry will probably examine the drinks more critically for more subtle differences - which may or may not be relevant to your readers.

    Personally, I think that a useful comparison would be between the stovetop, a grinder and fresh coffee appropriate to the stovetop, on the one hand, and the espresso machine, grinder and coffee appropriate to the espresso machine on the other. *If you use the espresso machine properly, I think that it will give a result that most people would prefer and be more likely to identify as a cappuccino and enjoy. *The stovetop might produce something that people like and that requires less of an investment of time and money to get. *You can add value by explaining - and researching - how to best create coffee from a moka pot.

    [Edit: just to note that I wrote these posts before the OP responded.]

    Hope that helps,

    Luca

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Gee Luca, thats all good stuff, but you sound like a lawyer. ;)

    I think where you may differ with pique19s perspective is that your primary expectaion is that a journalist provide reliable information, whereas the journalists primary objective may be to entertain. Im not saying that a factual piece cant be entertaining, but word count, the audience being targeted, etc. may have a significant impact on the tone and content of the article.

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    He is probaly writing a article on Internet Forums and how to ratttle their cages. Or it could be a fishing article. He tied the hook baited it with the subject and put it out there with some cockiness scent, and got a few bites. Wish the big lizards in my local took the squidgees that quick.

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    well. i just got my espresso machine last week and before that i made cappuccinos with filter coffee and a mix master whisk beater thing. i loved how it tasted. and i love how cappuccinos taste from my espresso machine also.

    its like their two different drinks that both taste good.

    looking forward to reading your article. :)

  19. #19
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    at the end of the day all that matters is whats in the cup, and if you like what you taste, its all good.
    its like their two different drinks that both taste good.
    Spot-on Michelle and Amy, I have coffee in all sorts of forms and enjoy any of them done well.


    Hey all,

    I met with Pique19 *few weeks ago when he started this journey and I can tell you that he does have a real love for coffee and is genuinely wanting to get the story right.

    So I request that the CSírs give him a fair go. *No need to attack journalists or their methods (even after he baited us), just tell your stovetop stories and debate Moka Vs Espresso.

    Oh, I also told him he needed a grinder when we met too.
    ;)


  20. #20
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    All I want in a story/article is a good mix of real facts
    Mixed with a good dose of entertainment
    Throw in a little humour
    And finish off with a good cup of coffee ;)
    I donít ask for much?

    KK :)



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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    I think the article needs a blind taste test. The person doing the taste test no real knowledge of coffee. Because many everyday people dont know a good coffee if they had one. So they have no bias.

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Andy F. Wrote: "I met with Pique19 *few weeks ago when he started this journey and I can tell you that he does have a real love for coffee and is genuinely wanting to get the story right."
    Fair enough.. *But if he is looking for any sympathy from us, he will have to do better than starting off with the statement: "....Im going to argue that I can make as good a cappuccino with my $15 stovetop moka pot and a hand frother -- plus a little know-how -- as you can with your $1000 machine."

    He can argue that a duck is a dog.

    Even starting with quality beans and a quality grinder, there isnt much point to it. An article showing people how to get the most band for the buck is useful. Explaining the difference between one product to another, sure. But the opening statement here was meant to get a negative reaction, it got many, and deservedly so.

    Although the ignorant coffee-drinking masses will not know the difference between a stove-top machine and a $1000 espresso machine, we do. IMO, to even call the product of a moka pot "espresso" stretches the definition beyond the breaking point.

    Of course, definitions have often been stretched. Take the claim of the inventor that the Aeropress makes espresso. I have discussed that with Alan many times, fruitlessly. *So you can call the mix of moka pot coffee and hand-frothed milk what you like, but a cup of hot, foamy milk and strong coffee by any other name is still just hot coffee and milk.

    Calling it a cappuccino just dilutes what so many of us enthusiasts are trying to achieve.. all IMO, of course.

    DoubleHalfCafHalfDecafCappaLatteMokaFrappeCcino... to go. * ;D

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1221702438/0#13 date=1221726577
    ....*The Italian Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano defines a cappuccino as 25mL of INEI certified espresso and 125mL of milk containing a minimum of 3.2% protein and 3.2% fat, served in a 150-160mL cup at a temperature around 55 degrees celcius.
    WTFZOMGLOLBBQ what is this world coming to? Certified espresso? Where can i get my hands on said certified espresso?

    Gotta agree with luca though. Properly foamed milk poured into an espresso shot before it settles is like mixing a foam and an emulsion. The top layer of foam is heavenly as its mixed to some extent with crema. Then again, a moka cappa may taste pretty good. Though different, as its fundamentally a different brewing technique.

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Quote Originally Posted by pique19 link=1221702438/0#11 date=1221722078
    Youre perfectly right. Michelle. The tone was meant to be a little cocky so Id get a response. Clearly I did!

    The way the piece is going is exactly along the lines a lot of the posters here have mentioned -- especially the comment that taste is subjective and what I think is good might not be what anyone else thinks is good.

    Ill be writing about how when I started out researching the piece there was so much I didnt know that I didnt know. Will talk about grinding, milk, roasting, tamping, water (quality and temperature) etc.

    Its becoming a bit of a "journey into the world of real coffee" piece. I think a lot of people -- non-snobs, too -- will find it interesting.

    Its a way off yet, but will be keen to see what you all think. Will post when its published so you can pick it to pieces. *:)

    pique19
    "Its all in the wrist action"
    ..just noticed that TS has 2 posts.


    Few months ago i though a humble Cafe Ristretto Sunbeam $99 machine made reasonable coffee.

    Today my tamper costs as much.

    ...and i just started roasting.

    Welcome to coffeesnobs and happy poisoning.

    IMO different brewing techniques produce fundamentally different coffees. Its not about being superior or inferior. I still use a french press especially with single origins (instead of proper cupping). If you are happy with your moka pot, then dont feel disheartened by comments about the so called "proper cappuccino".

    We all know youre going to be spending about $1000 in a couple of months anyway :p

  25. #25
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Now dont choke on your esspresso

    but I still like drinking Nescafe Blend 43, yep I would probally define it as a coffee flavoured drink, like Iced Coffee Move, its not coffee but it tastes alright.


  26. #26
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Eek! *Id rather drink water...though that does give me an idea.

    Maybe its time for me to give making my own instant coffee a go - oh boy...here I go again! ;)

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    might be worth your time to have a talk to Jack at Sorrentina (one of the sponsors). If the article was heading down the path of good coffee on a budget then also consider coffee syphons in the mix of gear. Jack has several stove top types in his range as well.

    thanks for the suggestion, beanflying. ive been trying out a Sorrentina for about three weeks, plus a Bialetti Mukka, a Bialetti Brikka and a Bellmann CX-25P.

    now, ill retreat from the discussion and watch from a distance. i thank everyone for contributing to my original thread but realise that with so many firm opinions on the subject this is a no-win situation for me. and thats as it should be. i have my own opinions, too, and clearly not everyone will agree with the final piece. oh well! *;) hope you get something out of it anyway.

    cheers for now.

    pique19
    "Keep on grinding"


  28. #28
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Well there goes your $30 budget ;) Just dont do a today tonight special on how snobby we are :)

    For my choice of manual brew methods Vacuum either long black or white is still the best (by far), A good Moka in the hands of a competent user is OK, but taste is in the mouth of the end user not in the keystrokes of another.

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Quote Originally Posted by pique19 link=1221702438/20#26 date=1221787693
    ... now, ill retreat from the discussion and watch from a distance. i thank everyone for contributing to my original thread but realise that with so many firm opinions on the subject this is a no-win situation for me. and thats as it should be. i have my own opinions, too, and clearly not everyone will agree with the final piece. oh well! *;) hope you get something out of it anyway.
    I think you expected, sought, and got a bit of passionate flak from your post pique, and as a journo in a previous life I give you kudos for that - youve pin-pointed the right demographic here, & the responses gained are the pickings for your ultimate article.

    Research-wise, full marks ... but lets actually see how your challenge pans out - a pre-release to publication would be warranted on this forum, considering that the content is probably going to be derived significantly from CSr comments as posted earlier.

    One suggestion though, from an editorial perspective ... I hope your final piece will use capitals at the beginning of each sentence, unlike your posts. ;)

    I try to subdue the sleeping journo/copy-writer in me, but to no avail! ;D

    Tony

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Quote Originally Posted by GrindOnDemand link=1221702438/20#28 date=1221790121
    Quote Originally Posted by pique19 link=1221702438/20#26 date=1221787693
    ... now, ill retreat from the discussion and watch from a distance. i thank everyone for contributing to my original thread but realise that with so many firm opinions on the subject this is a no-win situation for me. and thats as it should be. i have my own opinions, too, and clearly not everyone will agree with the final piece. oh well! *;) hope you get something out of it anyway.
    I think you expected, sought, and got a bit of passionate flak from your post pique, and as a journo in a previous life I give you kudos for that - youve pin-pointed the right demographic here, & the responses gained are the pickings for your ultimate article.

    Research-wise, full marks ... but lets actually see how your challenge pans out - a pre-release to publication would be warranted on this forum, considering that the content is probably going to be derived significantly from CSr comments as posted earlier.

    One suggestion though, from an editorial perspective ... I hope your final piece will use capitals at the beginning of each sentence, unlike your posts. ;)

    I try to subdue the sleeping journo/copy-writer in me, but to no avail! ;D

    Tony

    sorry, Tony, i know i said id retreat but i cant let that pass without comment...

    three things:
    first, id already written a ton of stuff along the lines the posts here have suggested before i started this thread, its not derived from the postings. i could show you 8500 words of notes and interviews to prove it. what ive seen here has been useful in confirming a whole lot of things for me.
    second, i wont be doing a pre-release of the article here, for many reasons -- not the least being imagine the mess thatd create, trying to satisfy you lot! * :)

    third: donT gEt hunG up on cApiTAl letTErS! ;D

    pique19
    "Keep on grinding"


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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Quote Originally Posted by pique19 link=1221702438/20#29 date=1221794592
    ... sorry, Tony, i know i said id retreat but i cant let that pass without comment ...
    Thanks for granting me the honour of a capital T on my name ... work on the rest mate. ;)

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Hi Pique,

    Best of luck in your article. *Im very glad that you have come to your own opinion after what seems to be at least some research.

    As I and others have said, there is no argument that you can make good coffee with a moka pot, but I dont think that you can make anything that you can credibly call a cappuccino. *Unfortunately, I cant seem to attach a photo, but here is a link to the sort of thing that I think is a cappuccino and that you will not be able to produce with a stovetop: http://www.flickr.com/photos/10793388@N08/1095007897/in/set-72157601391464880/

    If you have done your research, this might not be news, but there is a moka pot brewing guide here that is kind of OK: http://www.venezianocoffee.com.au/equipment/first-pour/product41?pageNum=5

    If you are at the show tomorrow, I will be doing the cupping competition and would be happy to talk to you. Or, indeed, to make you a cappuccino, if Im on the machine.

    [Edit: It appears that my attempt to attach a photo was successful after all.]

    Cheers,

    Luca


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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Im guessing thats the infamous LM tamper, Luca?

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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    I dont want to get my (or anyone elses) knickers too twisted:


    so I will try to be careful what I write here:

    therefore:

    I will quickly agree that on a coffee connoisseur forum it is brave, quixotic and perhaps doomed to dare to post the fighting words: "Im going to argue that I can make as good a cappuccino with my $15 stovetop moka pot and a hand frother -- plus a little know-how -- as you can with your $1000 machine."


    thats what we call molto braggadocio

    he may as well have said, "I am going to conclusively prove that Microwaved Nescafe Instant Latte Powder is as good- nay even better- than any coffee made by Jack Hanna at the 2007 World Latte Art Championship"

    BUT

    To me it was immediately clear (as the OP later admitted) that there was a tongue in cheek- element to his post. It was aimed at stimulating a debate- and that it certainly has- but the vitriol (and hubris) shown here by some is a little bit over the top and demanded a response.

    Luca began his post all guns blazing: "Your attitude displays the fundamental ignorance, lack of respect and lack of research that is symptomatic of mainstream media reports on coffee. *Given that the public relies on journalists to provide them with reliable information, I find this attitude totally reprehensible." *


    Luca: Please accept the following in good faith- and the spirit of this light hearted discussion:

    You are yourself a coffee journalist with your own coffee blog published online. If you are going to decry the standards of todays journalism I should hope you would lead by example. However when I found myself mentioned on your bloghttp://pourquality.blogspot.com/ recently
    I raised my eyebrows at the following comment you made about the syphons I sell:

    "They appear to be knock-offs of the Hario range - the manufacturer even had the temerity to claim that their Hario Deco knock-off is "patented" on the box; pretty funny, if you ask me, but I hope that it doesnt expose Jack to liability under s 178 of the Patents Act ;P"

    Now as a journalist - perhaps you should have researched the Patent holdings, industrial relationships, design registrations etc. of the manufacturer of the Bellina syphon before you published your article? ;-) A somewhat tedious and difficult task given much of the material is published in Taiwanese... Had you done that research you would have *found that the manufacturer of the Bellina not only has the temerity to claim patents in elements of the Bellina coffee syphon: he actually has the patents to back up his temerity!

    Do I have the audacity to remind you of the section 52 of the TPA? ;-)

    No. I really dont mind too much: what is published on your blog seems to be just "laziness" and/or "incompetence" - I hope it doesnt hinder your future career prospects ;-) Ha ha. Sorry couldnt help myself.

    *. But Seriously: a casual person reading your blog could perhaps be given the wrongful *impression that I have engaged in suspect conduct- and an editorial amendment wouldnt go amiss :-? Overall I am happy with the link to my site, and review of the burners. cheers. :)

    Ok- having addressed the question of journalistic integrity raised by Lucas post- I will move on to the definition of a cappuccino given by Luca,

    "The problem is that there really isnt much of a formal definition adopted in Australia. "

    This is news to me? How big is this semantic problem?

    Cmon- who are you kidding? A Cappuccino is "a hot white coffee in a cup with foamy milk and (optionally) chocolate dust on top"*!
    *can be cinnamon
    Everyone Knows that! Full stop. Sure within that description there is an infinity of possibilities... from sublime to despicable.

    go into the street- ask for a description of a cappuccino- I bet you wont hear [a cappuccino is] "25mL of INEI certified espresso and 125mL of milk containing a minimum of 3.2% protein and 3.2% fat, served in a 150-160mL cup at a temperature around 55 degrees celcius. " !! Ha ha. I really just doubt it.

    Finally you say Moka coffee is not espresso.

    this is an old chestnut- and if you define a cappuccino as "25mL of INEI certified espresso and 125mL of milk containing a minimum of 3.2% protein and 3.2% fat, served in a 150-160mL cup at a temperature around 55 degrees celcius", then I guess I would have to agree with you: Stove top coffee is not textbook INEI certified "espresso" ;-) And that Crema I get is not "real" crema.

    But when I grind some fresh roasted beans- then fire up my Brikka- or my Kamira- or even my Sorrentina (I am overburdened with brewing options)- and make 25ml shots of syrupy, potent, black espresso like coffee- with some kind of crema like emulsion floating on the surface- and then I froth up (sorry finely texture) a jug of milk- and then make two "cappuccino like" cups of coffee-

    well heck dang: darned if it doesnt taste Just like a Real Cappuccino! *And whatddya know- none of my guests have ever pegged them for fakes!

    I am not delusional: there is a difference between pump/ lever espresso machines and stove top devices. The crema is thicker, finer- and more persistent. Having said that : some of the worst, sourest, most burnt, disgusting coffees I have have ever had the misfortune to taste have come from commercial espresso machines whilst I have made myself some very fine stove top coffees- top notch- tasty- wonderful. INEI certified or no...

  35. #35
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Boy, this is an interesting and entertaining thread!

    Like the English language, isnt the not so humble cappuccino also evolving? Along with a divergence from Southern Italian style roasts, 10 years ago a cappuccino was entirely different to today. Yet I do believe the global majority would continue to describe it as per the above thread.

  36. #36
    Senior Member Stan's Avatar
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    I have read the passionate expression of the obviously well and not so well researched posts. All I can say that to make it a killer article he should include a study on how coffee affects a persons sex life. There I have done it Gutter Journalism. ;D ;D

  37. #37
    mwatt
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    This thread is getting a bit nasty and personal - but I will point out that if you serve a cappuccino at the WBC with chocolate or cinnamon on it you will be penalised. If you serve one without it to Joe Public hell probably scream at you about being ripped off.

    As for Pique saying you will just sit back now and not engage in the thread, can I ask why? I really dislike it when people start something and walk away with a "Ill just let you sort it out amongst yourselves" attitude. You posed a challenge - why not engage rather than spectate?

    Oh, and I thought Luca was a law student, not a journo? I have a coffee-ish blog, but it doesnt make me a journalist in any way shape or form. I have to say I can sympathise with Lucas sentiments about the "fundamental ignorance, lack of respect and lack of research that is symptomatic of mainstream media reports on coffee". People are always keeping coffee-related articles for me cos they know Im passionate about it, and more often than not I get really bored of reading them because its usually pretty clear to me that the writer knows very little about what constitutes good coffee.

    I stand by my statement that its what your tastebuds tell you that really matters, but part of me also agrees with the whole culinary coffee ideology and wishes that coffee was treated with the same understanding and respect we accord to wine. :P

  38. #38
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Quote Originally Posted by Michelle link=1221702438/20#36 date=1221810687
    This thread is getting a bit nasty and personal
    It did that on page 1 if you remember where I pointed it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1221702438/0#9 date=1221716567
    Hey.
    The comments are now getting a little...acidic (I wanted a coffee related term).
    I say we encourage pique a little more rather than put them down so much.

    The more people that know about good coffee the better.
    We need to help the journos learn the difference.
    I agree with you Michelle in that I think pique should stick around in this thread and finish what he started.

    However if he chooses not to then well just have to wait for the article and continue from there.

  39. #39
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    I thought a journalist was supposed to report facts and perhaps others opinions. I didnt realise they were supposed to argue anything, then again we do live in the FOX news and CNN world these days. :(

  40. #40
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    I dont read newspapers they are full of bad news and Bulls@!%$. And paid advertisements disguised as news articles.
    So Pique which coffee company is paying you? Or will we have to wait and see if you name the infamos 1000 dlr machine, then well know whos paying. ;)

  41. #41
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Jack,

    In general, in relation to the OP, I am happy to admit that bait was dangled and that I took it! *I worded my post pretty strongly. *Im sure that pique is a big boy/girl and can take it. *More importantly, what fun is a forum to read if you cant enjoy some vigorous debate? ;P *In that spirit ...

    I note that I did say in my first post:

    I am happy to take some steps to make up for what appears from your post to be your laziness, incompetence or simply an odd way of asking for pointers.
    The subject of the quote that you have extracted was piques attitude. *Perhaps I should have said piques attitude as displayed by his/her post, but, frankly, I thought that that would be obvious, seeing as no living human being has any idea who this pique person is ... which is often how people go about stirring $#!t on forums!

    I would describe my posts as strongly worded, but constructive. *Pique introduced a topic for discussion, and I explored it. *I think that the content of my post was actually pretty productive as a response to a post entitled go on, tell me Im mad! *It set out a bunch of things that I think the article would need to address.

    As for your attack on me ...

    First of all, your comments are totally self-interested and, therefore, lacking credibility. *I note that you have made no comments about anything that I have written beyond what directly concerned you.

    In regards to my comments about your siphons, my only intention in making reference to you was to send customers your way. *I thought that you delivered me fantastic customer service and I enjoy the burner that I bought from you. *I think that you are filling a gaping hole in the coffee market and I heartily recommend you to anyone who might be interested in siphons and siphon burners. *Regardless of your comments.

    I happened to have the analogous section of the TM Act open and idly wondered if the Patents Act had a similar section. *I clearly demonstrated that I am no journalist by including that because it interested me, which, I gather, is something that most bloggers do. *

    I have been going through my emails and I noticed that you actually sent me a request to remove that part of my post on the 17th. *I did check my email that day, but skipped over your email because, frankly, the title looked like a lot of the spam that I tend to get. *I think that it would be inappropriate to discuss the content of that email further, save to note that it was very polite.

    I have deleted the offending portion of my post because it simply does not mean anything to me to have it up there and removing it does not affect the veracity of anything that I have posted. *However, I note that (a) it was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, (b) I prefaced my marks with the word appear, (c) I followed my remarks with the poking tongue smiley, (d) I did not intend for that statement to be taken as a pronouncement of fact and (e) no-one is likely to have taken that statement as fact. *Additionally, whilst you contend that a casual person reading your blog could perhaps be given the wrongful *impression that I have engaged in suspect conduct, I can actually mount an argument that your conduct actually does contravene the relevant legislation (and also s 52 of the TPA, of which you seem to be so enamoured) despite the patents that you claim exist. *I choose not to.

    As for your comments about my blog in general, first, I think that a blog is a pretty casual communication medium. *I dont think that anyone expects bloggers to adhere to any specific standard of journalistic ethics and I sincerely doubt that s52 TPA has any application to blogs. *Despite that, I actually think that my blog entries are actually pretty damned well-researched and factual ... when they arent being tongue-in-cheek ;P *For example, all of my recent coffee tasting notes contain a bit of background and a bunch of links, as well as the actual tasting notes.

    Finally, I made - and continue to make - no comment about which definition of cappuccino should be adopted. *I merely point out that a definition happens to be very important for this particular article. *

    Heres hoping that this thread continues to entertain!

    Luca

    PS. *This had me in stitches:

    Had you done that research you would have *found that the manufacturer of the Bellina not only has the temerity to claim patents in elements of the Bellina coffee syphon: he actually has the patents to back up his temerity!

  42. #42
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1221702438/40#40 date=1221821118
    seeing as no living human being has any idea who this pique person is
    You missed Andys post on page 1.



    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Freeman link=1221702438/0#18 date=1221741163
    Hey all,

    I met with Pique19 *few weeks ago when he started this journey and I can tell you that he does have a real love for coffee and is genuinely wanting to get the story right.

    So I request that the CSírs give him a fair go. *No need to attack journalists or their methods (even after he baited us), just tell your stovetop stories and debate Moka Vs Espresso.

    Oh, I also told him he needed a grinder when we met too.
    ;)

  43. #43
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1221702438/40#40 date=1221821118
    ... In general, in relation to the OP, I am happy to admit that bait was dangled and that I took it! *I worded my post pretty strongly. *Im sure that pique is a big boy/girl and can take it. *More importantly, what fun is a forum to read if you cant enjoy some vigorous debate?...
    Well, considering the fairly high intensity of emotions resonant in this thread, I suppose we could say piques views are de-bait-able? ... Doh ::)

  44. #44
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    Re: Go on, tell me Im mad

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Fascinating reading.

    Pique, I hope you not only continue to lurk as a viewer, but look forward to you actively contributing in different sections of this forum. I wish that would happen along your journey, not just at the end with the posting of your article, as I think it would be interesting reading it at the ground level.

    And Pique, not having had the slightest interest in good stove-tops before (lack of knowledge - never tried it), your thread, and accompanying vitriolic responses, has certainly got me keeping an eye out for your article ;)



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