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Thread: Bottomless PF or Spout?

  1. #1
    Senior Member redzone121's Avatar
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    Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi all

    I have got so used to the bottomless PF and yes the 21 gm shots that I dont seem to be comfortable going back to the double or single spout. I also find it harder to keen clean and dry between shots, seems to retain a little water between basket and PF and I dont want that in my cup.
    I know a couldnt taste the difference, but the extraction looks quite different even paler in colour. Maybe its just got less coffee in the basket.

    What do you people prefer? and any hints or theories froim the experts ?

    Cheers

    Chris

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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    I dont have a bottomless PF yet but plan to get one soon as i am interested to how my tamping etc stands up to getting the shot out perfectly even and you cant see that with spouts.

    Plus its also a good talking point for the uneducated (and i know alot of those ;D)

  3. #3
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3A2D2C3227262D797A79480 link=1244670757/0#0 date=1244670757
    dry between shots, seems to retain a little water between basket and PF and I dont want that in my cup.
    One of the advantages of the bottomless is that it is so easy to remove the basket. I use mine for single shots and mainly for backflushing.

    It wouldnt be much effort to remove the basket and wipe.

    I usually just rinse the pf and then shake the water out of it. Any water that ends up in the cup would be clean and minimal.

  4. #4
    Senior Member redzone121's Avatar
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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5D574255555A4E483B0 link=1244670757/2#2 date=1244672808
    It wouldnt be much effort to remove the basket and wipe.
    Fair comment flynn, as mine has had little use its fairly tight spring.

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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    I prefer the bottomless, though I havent succumbed to the triple basket.

    Irony is that I love watching the shot pour and do it regularly, though I got a HX so I could steam milk while pulling shots... Ah, the wonderful conundrums of coffee!

    Grant

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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    David and I, we use naked portafilter here at the espresso bar and at home. we are a greater believers that does not only help you for improve your barista skills, also give you a better clean extraction.

    Regards

    Renzo
    Di Bartoli Home Barista

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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Its all I use. LOVE it. I like how it provides immediate visable feedback and it makes clean up easy.

    I used to find the dose and collapse method a bit of a hassle using it (would attempt to tap bottom of portafilter on a tamping mat positioned at the edge of the countertop). Now I have a Bumper stand and I tap the bottom of the portafilter on the mat at the top of the stand. Easier and I can keep the portafilter nice and horizontal while collapsing dose. Any loose grinds end up on the countertop not on the kitchen floor...

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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    I use it a couple of times a week. Mine came with the triple basket but I have only used a double in it. The novelty of watching the shots come out is not wearing off, there are some funny moments when i have made my family and friends (non coffee geeks) bend down and watch the extraction of their shot . Initially most people say no, really? Then after seeing it come out they somehow have a greater appreciation for the whole art of making good coffee.

  9. #9
    mwatt
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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Im probably in the minority, but I actually dont particularly enjoy the texture of a naked shot, I prefer the spouts. Naked PFs are brilliant for your technique, Im just not that fussed on the furriness of the shots.

    Its been a while though, maybe Ill do some blind testing once my sense of smell and taste return. Flipping colds >:(

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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    I have one that came with a triple shot basket, and having just recently got into this wonderful world I tried it and the result was disastrous.

    Having only used a double shot basket on a spout pf (for a couple of weeks), I thought why not just jump to naked and triple basket. The result was a combination of not locking in the pf correctly and probably not dosing correctly either. The pf flew out sending muddy grinds everywhere...lots of self cursing :P

    I will persevere though, but probably try with the double basket.

  11. #11
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Use mine quite a bit when mug sized Lattes are ordered.... ;)

    Saves having to feed the mug around the spout(s). Yeah I know, lazy bugger... ::)

    Mal.

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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Will be getting one as I go along, got to play with one when I did my Home Barista Course. There was just something so beautiful about watching the pour.

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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    im naked all the time at home.
    1. easy visual for checking the evenness of the extraction and what/where it went wrong if it wasnt even.
    2. much easier to clean; a rinse and wipe, no oils trapped in spouts
    3. dont mind the added furriness as michelle puts it. but yes crema seems more expanded compared to a spouted pour
    4. easier to pull double espressi, restretti into picollo glasses

    aaron

  14. #14
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    I dont have a bottomless PF
    I am comfortable with spouts for now

    One day I may get one

    KK

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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    The bottomless PF is great fun and I would encourage everyone to fool around with it at some stage. Personally, Im not especially fussed either way, but I only very occasionally use bottomless PFs and I dont actually own one at the moment.

    So often writing on the internet either explicitly or implicitly tries to label things as better or worse, rather than trying to explore how things are different. The fundamental difference between the espresso produced by bottomless and normal pfs seems to be the amount of air in it and how bubbly it is. If you search around a bit, you will probably find the original threads from 2004 or 2005 when we first started fooling around with bottomless portafilters and Greg Kaan put forward the very clever theory that peoples impressions that shots produced by bottomless portafilters taste better are probably just a failure to account for the extra volume from the bubbles and air. The theory goes that people are pulling shots to the same length in the same time as they do with spouted portafilters; once the extra air escapes and the volume settles to be stable, you can see that it is actually less than you would get from a spouted portafilter. In other words, people are actually pulling more ristretto shots than espresso shots and by saying that bottomless portafilter shots taste better all that they are really saying is that they prefer a more ristretto shot.

    Like Michelle, Im not big on the mouthfeel of the bottomless shots. You can stir the shot and bash the cup on the table to get around it to some extent, though. What you cant fix is a ristretto extraction if what you actually wanted was an espresso.

    I think that I have become more sensitive to dirty portafilter, particularly baked on dirt, but of late I have simply been popping the baskets out and wiping everything more often. This is really easy with a ridgeless basket. A bottomless portafilter might help, but the benefit would be offset against the irritating bubbly shots.

    As for the usefulness of a bottomless portafilter as a training and diagnostic tool; sure its useful, but only to an extent. If you check up around the forums, you will see any number of people who have become obsessed with what the shots look like. Thats fine, but dont we taste them any more? This goes back to the ristretto vs espresso point - a more ristretto pour might look better as a bottomless shot, but how does it actually taste? It was kind of funny to see that the new Slayer machines only had bottomless portafilters on them. I really hope that that doesnt make anyone lose sight of what the coffee actually tastes like.

    Cheers,

    Luca

  16. #16
    Senior Member redzone121's Avatar
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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Like most topics coffee related, peoples thoughts and practices are interesting and varied. The other thing I have noticed is extraction colour difference. Yes it has always been is about taste, thats why i have a PF in the first place to get the best out of my coffee.
    Thanks for all the great replies, i might just get the spout out and have another shot (i mean experiment).

    Cheers

    Chris

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    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Fuzzy :-?

    Yes, that is what an espresso tastes like from one of these. Never really put my finger on it before, just noticed that the mouthfeel was different but the flavour didnt seem to be altered. I use a single spouted PF for all my espressos because of the naked fuzziness factor, I just didnt realise what it was.... ;D

    Mal.

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    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Ummmmm, I use neither.

    Since I only make doubles, and 95% ristrettos, and my glass is reasonably tall (see here <-----) I just unscrew the spout and let the coffee run straight down into the glass!

    This also gives me a nice stable bottom on the portafilter for knocking and tamping--wins both ways.

    Greg

  19. #19
    Senior Member redzone121's Avatar
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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Nice one Greg.
    Yesterday and today I have been comparing Naked to double spout extractions and Im going to put this out there and run for cover............."The double spout PF blondes earlier than the Naked PF" *:o
    Can only say what I see and I have done my best to keep the variables to a minimum but of course human error etc etc.
    Anyway have others noticed this? I also have to dissagree with fuzzy or furry (Michelle), no one here (the espresso only NO MILK club) has a clue what you are on about, but then again I am the first to admit we are just greenies *:)

    CB

  20. #20
    mwatt
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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Chris, are you using the same size baskets in the naked and the spouted PF? You mentioned using a 21g basket in the naked earlier in the thread - so of course youre going to get blonding earlier in a smaller basket.

    If youre using identical baskets, then I cant explain that, though some one more clever than myself may ;). How can you possibly be extracting the compounds faster in a spouted basket? The cause of blonding happens before it exits the basket surely?

    Also, how are you measuring how much youve extracted; the increased crema (and subsequently air) in a naked shot will make it tricky to judge how much youve actually pulled through when you look at them side by side.

    As for not understanding my furry comment, thats cool. Maybe Im just a little weird ;D (And yeah, I am talking no milk also).

    Let you in on a secret ... despite my confessed distaste of shots from nekkid PFs, yesterday I had two shots of Idido Misty Valley, one from a spouted PF, one from a naked. The naked was cleaner and far tastier, though there were a couple of other variables in the mix ;) Still not a fan of the fuzzies!! :D

  21. #21
    Senior Member redzone121's Avatar
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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Hi Michelle
    Actually the 21 gm basket did fit (Yay !) but I think you are bang on, the air factor. It was a big call from a non measurable platform :-[

    The amount of shot left after the crema settles is hard to measure also as the amount of crema is different. I think Ill keep my casual observations to myself and the scientific stuff to the really keen ones :D

    Anyway its been fun using different spouts etc and its fair to say we all like what we like and thats the fun thing.

    Maybe a trip to Sydney later in the year if you and Yeeza want to catch up, or has he moved to another part of town with his new job.

    Cheers

    Chris

  22. #22
    mwatt
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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D6A6B7560616A3E3D3E0F0 link=1244670757/20#20 date=1244863776

    Maybe a trip to Sydney later in the year if you and Yeeza want to catch up, or has he moved to another part of town with his new job.
    Nah, pretty sure he hasnt gone anywhere ;)
    Hey, Im always up for catching up and drinking coffee :)

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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Don`t have a Naked PF

    Quote Originally Posted by 4B7E696B5B637E616D60680C0 link=1244670757/17#17 date=1244807240
    Since I only make doubles, and 95% ristrettos
    Me too .
    Quote Originally Posted by 4B7E696B5B637E616D60680C0 link=1244670757/17#17 date=1244807240
    I just unscrew the spout and let the coffee run straight down into the glass!
    I really like that idea - gonna give that one a go.
    thanks

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    Re: Bottomless PF or Spout?

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by 33293F2A2A5E0 link=1244670757/8#8 date=1244689520
    Im probably in the minority, but I actually dont particularly enjoy the texture of a naked shot, I prefer the spouts. Naked PFs are brilliant for your technique, Im just not that fussed on the furriness of the shots.

    Its been a while though, maybe Ill do some blind testing once my sense of smell and taste return. Flipping colds *>:(
    For the past week or so Ive been experimenting by doing back-to-back shots using my bottomless PF and then GPP single spout PF. The single spout shots are smoother and I think I may even be as bold to say they are..... better tasting *:o. . Yes, naked shots more "furry" and "milkshakey" *:). I have decided to not just use the bottomless PF anymore.



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