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Thread: Cleaning agents

  1. #1
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    Cleaning agents

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Right cut a long story short...I have recommended a friend of mine (and owner of my old Krups) to buy some Cafetto to clean his machine.

    Hes spoken to someone who services coffee appliances and he was told that cafetto is a rip off and all it is is a mild citric acid, which he can get from a supermarket, and hes now feeling sore because he now feels cheated paying $20 for some Cafetto... The service guy also recommended he soak his pressurised basket in a 1/6 solution of diluted White King bleach.

    It all sounds a bit suss to me, for one I wouldnt feel comfortable with having bleach in my filter basket...even after a good rinsing.
    Secondly, Cafetto must be more than just citric acid yeah? Can anyone help provide some answers on why he should be using/buying cafetto rather than citric acid?


  2. #2
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D3A397A7161090 link=1248922420/0#0 date=1248922420
    Right cut a long story short...I have recommended a friend of mine (and owner of my old Krups) to buy some Cafetto to clean his machine.

    Hes spoken to someone who services coffee appliances and he was told that cafetto is a rip off and all it is is a mild citric acid, which he can get from a supermarket, and hes now feeling sore because he now feels cheated paying $20 for some Cafetto... *The service guy also recommended he soak his pressurised basket in a 1/6 solution of diluted White King bleach.

    It all sounds a bit suss to me, for one I wouldnt feel comfortable with having bleach in my filter basket...even after a good rinsing. *
    Secondly, Cafetto must be more than just citric acid yeah? *Can anyone help provide some answers on why he should be using/buying cafetto rather than citric acid?
    erm...because its designed for the purpose and its not just citric acid... :-?

    He spent hundreds or thousands on a machine and yet is looking to save what, $10??

    As for the service tech, Id be suggesting he stick to washing shirts and making jam ::)

    2mcm



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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D2A296A6171190 link=1248922420/0#0 date=1248922420
    he was told that cafetto is a rip off and all it is is a mild citric acid,
    Utter garbage, to put it mildly. Perhaps the Descaling tablets have some citric acid but, from what I understand, Cafetto Espresso machine cleaner is made of of baking soda + detergent. If you add it to water, it will froth like you expect from a detergent; citric acid doesnt. I also use a small amount of Cafetto for cleaning pots/pans where the food has become cooked on.

    I dont know about soaking in bleach. As you say, sounds suss.

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    yes, but what about it makes it designed for its purpose?

    I use it on my Silvia and wouldnt consider putting anything in a cleaning agent that wasnt expressly made or proven to work with espresso makers.

    I wouldnt trust the tech either...he had never heard of a krups unpressurised basket before.

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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 511615565D4D250 link=1248922420/3#3 date=1248923661
    wouldnt consider putting anything in a cleaning agent that wasnt expressly made or proven to work with espresso makers.
    From the Caefetto website:
    Cafetto Espresso Clean has been tested by NSF and complies with its protocol to guarantee it is safe to your customers and your machine.

    Ill vouch for its effectiveness. Can almost be a little too harsh as it can strip the lubricant from the E-61 group head mechanisms if you use the recommended amounts.

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Its 20 years since I did year 12 chemistry but I believe bleach is a strong oxidising agent therefore its not a good idea to use on metal. A 1 in 6 dilution is still quite strong.

    I think Cafetto is reasonably priced, especially if you buy it in the larger size containers.

    Whats the cost of a replacement basket, or more importantly, a new machine?

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    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 57565C4F51544E3D0 link=1248922420/5#5 date=1248931406
    I think Cafetto is reasonably priced, especially if you buy it in the larger size containers.
    Agreed.
    I still havent gotten to the bottom of the 500g tub I bought almost 3 years ago.

    @SteveH - just tell him Coffee Snobs said so.

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 2B6C6F2C27375F0 link=1248922420/0#0 date=1248922420
    Cafetto must be more than just citric acid yeah? Can anyone help provide some answers on why he should be using/buying cafetto rather than citric acid?
    Well, it depends... Cafetto manufacture a range of specialist coffee cleaning products for very specific jobs. I dont pretend to know exactly what constituents are in each product but if one or two do contain Citric Acid, they would be specifically for De-Scaling the internals of the Boiler, etc and not just cleaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2B6C6F2C27375F0 link=1248922420/0#0 date=1248922420
    he was told that cafetto is a rip off and all it is is a mild citric acid, which he can get from a supermarket
    Talking about regular Cafetto, I have only just now cracked open a new tub. The previous 500g tub was purchased about 5-6 years ago so if thats not great value, I dont know what is?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2B6C6F2C27375F0 link=1248922420/0#0 date=1248922420
    The service guy also recommended he soak his pressurised basket in a 1/6 solution of diluted White King bleach.
    This so-called espresso Tech guy, sounds like a real hazard. I wouldnt be allowing him/her to touch any of my equipment and as far as the advice is concerned, well - you know where that belongs.... [smiley=thumbdown.gif]

    Mal.

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    How much would 500g of Citric Acid cost? i have never bought it.

    i use cafetto since i got my silvia and find it great

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 7E393A7972620A0 link=1248922420/0#0 date=1248922420
    Hes spoken to someone who services coffee appliances and he was told that cafetto is a rip off and all it is is a mild citric acid, which he can get from a supermarket, and hes now feeling sore because he now feels cheated paying $20 for some Cafetto... *The service guy also recommended he soak his pressurised basket in a 1/6 solution of diluted White King bleach.
    maybe he has been servicing this machine ?
    this was actually blocked its the fill level glass tube lower boiler and i had to "screw" through it with a metal scewer a fair bit 7mm odd deep this scale is

    thats an 9mm hole you looking at (pipe)


    i think it could have done with some descaler...... its going to get some very soon

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D7178787B7B416D70717C1E0 link=1248922420/8#8 date=1248942109
    How much would 500g of Citric Acid cost? i have never bought it.
    about $10 - 12 at woolies

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 0C000904040D610 link=1248922420/9#9 date=1248943393
    aybe he has been servicing this machine ?
    this was actually blocked its the fill level glass tube lower boiler and i had to "screw" through it with a metal scewer a fair bit 7mm odd deep this scale is

    thats an 9mm hole you looking at (pipe)

    Mahee.l i feel very sick now.... did someone report this owner/abuser of the machine to the RSPCCA...
    ROYAL
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    CRUELTY
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    THEY SHOULD HAVE...I had a laugh.. >:( ;D :(


    HAPPY SIPPIN v ;)

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 5875717D701C0 link=1248922420/7#7 date=1248939949
    SteveH wrote on Today at 12:53:
    The service guy also recommended he soak his pressurised basket in a 1/6 solution of diluted White King bleach.

    This so-called espresso Tech guy, sounds like a real hazard. I wouldnt be allowing him/her to touch any of my equipment and as far as the advice is concerned, well - you know where that belongs....

    Problem is that there are lots of these Experienced and Trusted tecs out there....

    I do not even bother trying to explain it any more... Some are willing to listen .. Great. Those that have blinkers on... Well I step side ways and try my best to get out of their way.

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Know the feeling AM.... :-/

    Mal.

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    I was one with those blinkers but now i care about my machine instead of wanting to kill it like my old one.
    i know where Mal and AM are coming from.

    and thanks Maheel for that post, thats 3 bucks more i payed for cafetto 1kg so it works out cheaper!

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Hi CSrs,

    What is the preferred way to clean a pressurised filter?
    Does anyone have material safety data sheets for any of the coffee boutique cleaning products?
    It would be fascinating to glimpse the technology employed, I知 sure it would be a real eye opener.

    Lindsay

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 5451565C4B59414A59380 link=1248922420/15#15 date=1249033228
    Hi CSrs,

    What is the preferred way to clean a pressurised filter?
    Does anyone have material safety data sheets for any of the coffee boutique cleaning products?
    It would be fascinating to glimpse the technology employed, I知 sure it would be a real eye opener.

    Lindsay
    I would imagine the first place to ask would be the manufacturers, would it not?

    With regard to non 3-Way Valve machines and pressurised baskets... Not many option available unfortunately. Easy to soak removable components in a warm bath of Cafetto solution but as to the group-head and behind the shower-screen, you just have to get in there and scrub it out. This is of course necessary with true espresso machines too but not as frequently since back-flushing with Cafetto does most of this work for you....

    Mal.

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 426F6B676A060 link=1248922420/16#16 date=1249034666
    Quote Originally Posted by 5451565C4B59414A59380 link=1248922420/15#15 date=1249033228
    Hi CSrs,

    What is the preferred way to clean a pressurised filter?
    Does anyone have material safety data sheets for any of the coffee boutique cleaning products?
    It would be fascinating to glimpse the technology employed, I知 sure it would be a real eye opener.

    Lindsay
    I would imagine the first place to ask would be the manufacturers, would it not?

    With regard to non 3-Way Valve machines and pressurised baskets... Not many option available unfortunately. Easy to soak removable components in a warm bath of Cafetto solution but as to the group-head and behind the shower-screen, you just have to get in there and scrub it out. This is of course necessary with true espresso machines too but not as frequently since back-flushing with Cafetto does most of this work for you....

    Mal.
    Mal has hit the nail on teh head...

    Note: I have a copy of a MSDS for Coffee and that would frighten you... For that matter look at a MSDS for plain Table salt... Then SuperGlue and then Lead..... Or even carbon steel ?

    Note: The one thing a MSDS does not do it limit the way or manner that people will use a product.. I love my salt, use Super glue all teh time and yes it does fix deep cuts and lead when fishing.. But put 55grains of cordite behind a little lead and the outcome is not recorded in and MSDS... For that matter a few more grains of cordite behind some Rock Salt and neither is that documented. Let alone when carbon steel is formed into a sharp blade.....

    Thus the outcome of the use of many products sits squarely with teh USER... The user has to take some responsibility... They can not deflect and blame every one else.

    Damm... I forgot my blue pill tonight ;) ... Must go and have a Coffee and a blue bird of paradise.

  19. #19
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D686F657260787360010 link=1248922420/15#15 date=1249033228
    What is the preferred way to clean a pressurised filter?
    Take a Dremel tool, cut off the bottom of the basket with one of the fibre cutting wheels, and scrub the screen with a brush and some Cafetto.

    Greg

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A6F787A4A726F707C71791D0 link=1248922420/18#18 date=1249038317
    Quote Originally Posted by 6D686F657260787360010 link=1248922420/15#15 date=1249033228
    What is the preferred way to clean a pressurised filter?
    Take a Dremel tool, cut off the bottom of the basket with one of the fibre cutting wheels, and scrub the screen with a brush and some Cafetto.

    Greg
    giggled like a schoolgirl... Your such a Joker :D ;) ;D


    WHAT :o






    Your NOT joking..... ::)

    Actually; I guess your 100% correct for a long term solution... ;)

  21. #21
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Yeah, sort of joking, but real serious too.

    I had used a double floor basket less than a dozen times when the goop dripping from it, even after extensive cleaning, persuaded me to give it a good clean.

    Heres a pic, after cleaning. ;D

    Greg


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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 2E2B2C2631233B3023420 link=1248922420/15#15 date=1249033228
    Hi CSrs,
    What is the preferred way to clean a pressurised filter?
    So what is wrong with White king?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6845414D402C0 link=1248922420/16#16 date=1249034666
    Quote Originally Posted by 5451565C4B59414A59380 link=1248922420/15#15 date=1249033228
    Hi CSrs,

    What is the preferred way to clean a pressurised filter?
    Does anyone have material safety data sheets for any of the coffee boutique cleaning products?
    It would be fascinating to glimpse the technology employed, I知 sure it would be a real eye opener.

    Lindsay
    I would imagine the first place to ask would be the manufacturers, would it not?

    With regard to non 3-Way Valve machines and pressurised baskets... Not many option available unfortunately. Easy to soak removable components in a warm bath of Cafetto solution but as to the group-head and behind the shower-screen, you just have to get in there and scrub it out. This is of course necessary with true espresso machines too but not as frequently since back-flushing with Cafetto does most of this work for you....

    Mal.
    Regarding MSDSs: Your right Mal but I have spent more than enough time on the manufacturers web sites looking for MSDSs didnt find a one. This may be due to my lack of ability but its difficult for someone to conclude that of ones self. I did find a manufacturer whose site promised to send one if an emailed request was submitted but the MSDS never arrived. What am I doing wrong?
    Many of our experinced senior members are extremely vigilant on matters of safety, I thought it would not be too cheeky to simply ask if anyone was prepared to make a copy of any handy MSDSs available to me or our community. I certainly would be interested and grateful.
    AM suggested that MSDSs are not the be all and end all, I agree, but I am not aware of alternatives can you advise?

    Lindsay






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    A_M
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 5752555F485A42495A3B0 link=1248922420/21#21 date=1249058377
    Many of our experinced senior members are extremely vigilant on matters of safety, I thought it would not be too cheeky to simply ask if anyone was prepared to make a copy of any handy MSDSs available to me or our community. I certainly would be interested and grateful.
    AM suggested that MSDSs are not the be all and end all, I agree, but I am not aware of alternatives can you advise?

    Some times it is a matter knowing where to look and other times it is having access to WHS data bases.

    Then again, some products may not have a single MSDS but provide MSDSs for the items that make up the final product. *

    If you can provide more information on the exact product, I may be in a position to assist.

    Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 5752555F485A42495A3B0 link=1248922420/15#15 date=1249033228
    Does anyone have material safety data sheets for any of the coffee boutique cleaning products?

    It would be fascinating to glimpse the technology employed, I知 sure it would be a real eye opener.
    1: Small suppliers may not even have one... Unless demanded - may even not even be set up to provide or even have to if the product is not HAZARDOUS...

    Ask for a MSDS on some of the body lotions and other beauty product that one uses directly on ones self... *No happenig Jan.. And some of them are HAZARDOUS... ;)

    2: This is the other issue... If they fully list every compound etc their competition then has information that may remove their position in the market.

    Thus you often just get a Warning that says *- Do not do X / Y and or Y. *Not fit for consumption or like some medical creams.. *For external use only...

    NOTE 1: The MSDS provides employers, self-employed persons, workers and other health and safety representatives with the necessary information to safely manage the risk from hazardous substance exposure.


    NOTE 2: http://www.deir.qld.gov.au/workplace/subjects/hazardousmaterials/definition/msds/index.htm

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Hi AM and CSrs,

    The Cafetto MSDS is of great interest to me as it is so universally esteemed.
    Cafetto is recommended for everything from raising coffee machines from the dead to cleaning items that general-purpose kitchen products would be a more obvious choice and in stock.

    For example to clean a small Stainless steel component associated with food preparation surely the household stock list has an acceptable product if not preferred product. Many of our newbies including myself may not be fully stocked with coffee boutique products but may come with a inventory already of products and knowledge and prefer to apply it rather than buy snake oil on a recommendation but without knowledge of what it contains.
    Im not against snake oil but amuse me with the substance behind the hype as it slides down.

    Lindsay

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    A_M
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 292C2B2136243C3724450 link=1248922420/23#23 date=1249080752
    Hi AM and CSrs,

    Cafetto is recommended for everything from raising coffee machines from the dead to cleaning items that general-purpose kitchen products would be a more obvious choice and in stock.

    For example to clean a small Stainless steel component associated with food preparation surely the household stock list has an acceptable product if not preferred product. Many of our newbies including myself may not be fully stocked with coffee boutique products but may come with a inventory already of products and knowledge and prefer to apply it rather than buy snake oil on a recommendation but without knowledge of what it contains.
    Im not against snake oil but amuse me with the substance behind the hype as it slides down.

    Lindsay
    Like when telling our kids to do somthing :-) it more offten than not comes from direct experience.... It is not always due to advertising :-)

    I like many before (and many in the future) will and have tried other cost saving products... Some may work, others may not and some even make things worse. Oils ant oils..... Some products will clean some materials and cause damage to others.

    As for Cafetto... It is tried and true. I use it to clean other items that involve baked on oils etc and it works well in general. For coffee products I have found it to be exceptional and VERY cost efficent as a cleander and from a time and effort perspective.

    I still use metho to clean my wodden floors.. Old fashioned, but simple and effective - also cheeper than the many produsts with glossy labels on the market shelves...

    Citric acid has its uses... But agauin, depending on the quality of the raw product and how I use it, it does not always perform the way I want... Even my Ginger beer has a profound reaction to diferent brands and my measurment and use of teh said product.

    Caffetto is stable and consistant.. I works for me and many others.. Is it the BEST... I can not say for certainty... However, it is cheep / available / consistant / does teh job and I trust the Sponsor as a responcible supplier to not cut and contaminate.

    What more can I say....

    OH, and lots cheeper than the SB tabs...

    NOTE: From my EEE while having a coffee at the V in West end.. So as I am blind and dyslex, excuse my speeling :-)

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Thanks AM,

    I am happy that you find a consistant result using Cafetto in your ginger beer.

    But even if I believed that is what you said I would still use citric acid in my ginger beer.
    I do value your wisdom, knowledge, experience and willingness to share with our community but my background knowledge and makeup requires me to integrate your advice with my pre-existing self.
    Sorry.

    Lindsay

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 3C393E342331292231500 link=1248922420/25#25 date=1249085578
    I am happy that you find a consistant result using Cafetto in your ginger beer.
    I do not use Cafetto in my Ginger beer.... :o :o :o


    Quote Originally Posted by 3C393E342331292231500 link=1248922420/25#25 date=1249085578
    But even if I believed that is what you said I would still use citric acid in my ginger beer.
    I still use citric asid for my ginger beer but only one brand, as I know its strength and the reaction I will get.

    As a Technical person with Eng background and having a long association with Pathology and Forensics - evedance based decisions and validation is a must....

    I am also aware of the learned behaciour and how it can translate to those who believe, but never experience the situation. Unfortunatly there are many that promote, with passion, things that are not correct or taken out of context *:( *See here for a little light reading.. http://www.sageconcepts.com/5-monkeys-and-a-cage *I see this every day at work... *Lets ask teh boss for XXXX.. *Many just jump up and say you can not, yet never asked or experienced what they say will happen ???

    Thus for me it is a review of experience / observations and documentation... *And not unlike any real review *- the points for and agenst must be taken on board and evaluated.. Note: Not all papers are independant or valid for all occasions ::)

    [edit]The Earth is flat... Cause that is what I see and Isac Newton *is wrong.. The earth sucks; no such thing as gravity. *And there was no MOON landing, the evidence is all here...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYVLpC_8SQE
    But beware it may shock some people* ;D[/edit]

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 052A23213609252A25232129212A30440 link=1248922420/26#26 date=1249086530
    The Earth is flat...
    Oh dear. This really messes with my curvature of the earth departure theory of how aeroplanes take off.

    :o


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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Dear AM,

    It was naughty to tease about ginger beer, my apologies.
    I respect and appreciate your accumulation of valid evidence based knowledge and you池e practical and long term application of your knowledge to our passion.
    On the other hand I am a passionate coffee ignoramus who plans to slowly improve that situation by integrating new info into my pre-existing knowledge base, which is a little overweight towards chemical/biological stuff.

    Particularly thank you for NOT BS-ing me, others have and continue to shamelessly.

    Kind Regards
    Lindsay

    PS So what is wrong with White king?

    WK has some similarities with Cafetto Espresso Clean in that apparently both could be categorised as alkaline oxidising cleaners.

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 2421262C3B29313A29480 link=1248922420/28#28 date=1249135088
    chemical/biological stuff
    Oh damm... *Haematology / Flow / Coag / even Molecular but not Chem and Bio....

    Crap where is that mictotome blade when ya need one * ;D ;)

    I am not a chemist... *Know plenty who play in that field... But they all think funny * ;) *

    No grey; all black and white... *Now in the other fields; you look at the INDICATORS and make a call... *That I like *;)

    NOTE: *could be categorised.... *Is just that. *That are not the same product.

    1: Neither product are fit to be consumed.


    2: *quick bit a research clearly shows there is a significant difference between Alkaline AND Oxidising

    3: Google Chem 101.

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=CK8OgULw4oMC&pg=PT171&lpg=PT171&dq=alkali ne+oxidising+cleaners.&source=bl&ots=YWjBo38rDF&si g=l9HTOPQZsbJx4rrruhMncvajMUY&hl=en&ei=hVF0Svu3GYH 67AOznc25Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3 #v=onepage&q=alkaline%20oxidising%20cleaners.&f=tr ue


    In a nut shell one looks at breaking down oils etc while the other kills sh!t..

    In context:

    Bleach is good to clean teh dunny... But would you wash ya hair in it NO.

    Shampoo and in particular much of the early stuff have alkaline properties as the focus is to get rid of months of oil and soot etc etc. Today you can get a wide range..

    As I have said before... Oils ant oils... Even stuff that looks and feels teh same can have different properties. Problem is that teh devil is in the detail.... And teh detail is too complicated for the large majority of users / people as they really do not need to know. Do I really need to know the thousands of chemicals in a Cigarette and how they interact NO... I just know that they are bad for every one...

    So just like a lung lolly (cigarette), at teh end of teh day... It is your choice..

    Bleach ya machine with White King or Milton Vs Cafetto or another approved / supported cleaner that is focused on Coffee oils..



    If ya want to delve deeper and into the maths and the pure chem ... *Then you will need to go back to UNi.. *;D

  31. #31
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Lindsay how about you ask Cafetto for some info (they are sponsors) and while youre at it ask White King if they think it would be OK for you to use their bleach to clean the parts of your coffee machine that make the coffee (in other words is it food safe).

  32. #32
    A_M
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 5C607D666C6D7A6F676C080 link=1248922420/30#30 date=1249174227
    Lindsay how about you ask Cafetto for some info (they are sponsors) and while youre at it ask White King if they think it would be OK for you to use their bleach to clean the parts of your coffee machine that make the coffee (in other words is it food safe).
    TG - some times, you make me like you ;)

    When ya coming to Brisbane ?

  33. #33
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Dear AM,

    You have clearly demonstrated your integrity, unfortunately others standards have fallen short.
    On coffee machine issues:
    I do not doubt the quality of products made by Cafetto on quality and fitness to purpose, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
    I believe that if a noob wanted to clean a pressurised basket White King would be as good as any, perhaps with a dash of automatic dishwasher detergent powder and Cafetto Espresso Clean would be good to. But wouldnt run to the shops if one or the other was in stock.
    Would my advice change if my other job were flogging product? It is difficult to wear 2 hats and do justice to both and it shows, often.
    Would be nice to see sponsor interests balanced against consumer needs.
    As a coffee consumer and a Tight A. I wear one hat.

    Enough said
    Lindsay

  34. #34
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    I have an Italian Espresso Machine and I use Italian espresso machine cleaner for back flushing, PFs, baskets ect

    Its called - Puly Caff Plus
    I got it from Barazi

    KK

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Lindsay,

    I think you have hit the nail on the head. AM has provided excellent advice to everyone and it is your choice whether you listen to him or you want to go and save a few cents and do your own thing. Will you have any issues, maybe not, will you be taking a risk, IMHO yes.

    Happy Cleaning.


  36. #36
    A_M
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 6560676D7A68707B68090 link=1248922420/32#32 date=1249179351
    Dear AM,

    You have clearly demonstrated your integrity, unfortunately others standards have fallen short.
    On coffee machine issues:
    I do not doubt the quality of products made by Cafetto on quality and fitness to purpose, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
    I believe that if a noob wanted to clean a pressurised basket White King would be as good as any, perhaps with a dash of automatic dishwasher detergent powder and Cafetto Espresso Clean would be good to. But wouldnt run to the shops if one or the other was in stock.
    Would my advice change if my other job were flogging product? It is difficult to wear 2 hats and do justice to both and it shows, often.
    Would be nice to see sponsor interests balanced against consumer needs.
    As a coffee consumer and a Tight A. I wear one hat.

    Enough said
    Lindsay
    Two hats yes... *Personal and my Ethics...

    Consumer needs Vs Perceptions Vs Ignorance Vs Blinkers..

    The evidence re the chemistry and the focus of Bleach Vs an Alkaline focused product is clear (Kill Vs Clean). *

    If you were looking to use another Alkaline based cleaning product.. I would support and may be even try it.. * As to Bleach... *Na...

    As I and other have said time and time again.. *Your choice.. *Not our recommendation... But YOUR Choice. * *

    As to the personal misdirection and inferences... Kill (bleach) List activated. *;D *;D *;D

  37. #37
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 3530373D2A38202B38590 link=1248922420/21#21 date=1249058377
    AM suggested that MSDSs are not the be all and end all, I agree, but I am not aware of alternatives can you advise?
    Yep, thats fair enough and AM is correct in what he says, in that MSDS data sheets are targeted at workplace situations, not households. The active ingredient in Cafetto and similar products is Sodium Percarbonate so if you do a Google Search for that, Im sure you will turn up a vast array of MSDS data that may apply in a lesser or greater degree specifically to Cafetto Espresso Clean.

    Just bear in mind that most MSDS sheets you are likely to find will assume an environment where substantial quantities are being stored, moved, distributed, packaged or in other ways used.

    All the best,
    Mal.

  38. #38
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Hi Mal, AM and fellow CSrs,

    Thanks for your advice it is valuable.
    I have spent quite a bit of time on the web, which was moderately fruitful finally.
    In spite of working in biochemistry/chemistry for more than forty years I was not familiar with the industrial chemical, sodium percarbonate.
    I am basically a sceptic, highly resistant to spin and imaginative advertising but with plausible scientific explanation, the formula or composition, sceptic can become believer.
    In trying to uncover the chemical basis for the action of products with a wide following: the manufacturers dont seem to consider it necessary to be forward in offering MSDSs or other specific information, to the verge of conspiracy to my way of thinking.
    Several times over recent months I have nearly choked on indigestible explanations, largely due to the paucity of specific info, we all deserve better.
    Dont quite understand some of the rhetoric along the way but got the feeling that Im the only member of an unpopuler tribe but never mind.

    Kind Regards
    Lindsay

  39. #39
    A_M
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 4964606C610D0 link=1248922420/36#36 date=1249564518
    MSDS data sheets are targeted at workplace situations
    Mal... *Not sure if you have seen this one... MSDS for Coffee..

    Now this is old but I like some of it...


    Bombora have MSDS on their cleaning tabs and exactly as thought.. Basic information as to how to manage the tabs - *Nothing that would be useful to the compertition..


  40. #40
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 210E0705122D010E0107050D050E14600 link=1248922420/38#38 date=1249594242
    Mal... *Not sure if you have seen this one... MSDS for Coffee..

    Now this is old but I like some of it...
    Yes, good one mate..... ;D

    Mal.

  41. #41
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 5752555F485A42495A3B0 link=1248922420/37#37 date=1249577169
    Dont quite understand some of the rhetoric along the way but got the feeling that Im the only member of an unpopuler tribe but never mind.
    Gday Lindsay.... :)

    Its not really a matter that some non-specific household products may or may not do a satisfactory or comparable job to Cafetto and similar specific espresso machine cleaners. Its more a case that non-specific cleaning compounds may contain other compounds that at best could affect the flavour of freshly brewed coffee or at worst, cause damage to the machine in some way or harm to ones health.

    For instance, a lot of household cleaning products include fragrance compounds that, if left behind, will contaminate the coffee liquor to some degree; some also contain various brightening compounds, chlorinated compounds and others which are probably not desirable to consume or be left behind in the machine to cause corrosion.

    I think it just makes sense to use a product specifically intended to clean espresso machines as any residue unintentionally left behind, will not harm machine or owner, and wont affect the flavour of the coffee (very important). Given how inexpensive these products are, I just dont see an argument for not using them.

    Mal.

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Hi Mal,

    Very nicely put, I do appreciate the very wise and practical advice offered by you and AM. As an adult for a while now Ive become comfortable with weighing up various authoritative advices, ignoring humbug and making my own decisions. I may be on the wrong tram but I think that is how grownups are supposed to act.

    Ill be b.ed if I would describe the original down to earth service guy as anything but wise also. I do feel a sympathy for his back to basics advice, fitting for a cash strapped employee, even if his boss would have shot him if he didnt recommend a full, designed for purpose "Coffee Machine Care Kit" in a quality stainless steel case including a replenishment contract to ensure timely, trouble free access to the latest release new products and guaranteed to take the worry out of caring for a loved object.

    Kind Regards
    Lindsay

    PS You know what they say about old dog and new tricks?

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    Re: Cleaning agents

    So could you use dishwasher machine powder as a substitute (e.g. a small amount of dissolved finish into the blind basket for a back flush)?

    Surely there cant be much difference between Cafetto and dishwasher powder?

    Thx

  44. #44
    TC
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 6A62757536070 link=1248922420/42#42 date=1249986500
    So could you use dishwasher machine powder as a substitute (e.g. a small amount of dissolved finish into the blind basket for a back flush)?

    Surely there cant be much difference between Cafetto and dishwasher powder?

    Thx
    ....and that takes the cake for the silliest thing I have ever read on this forum... ::)

    Would you drink it??? :-?

  45. #45
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 646C7B7B38090 link=1248922420/42#42 date=1249986500
    So could you use dishwasher machine powder as a substitute (e.g. a small amount of dissolved finish into the blind basket for a back flush)?

    Surely there cant be much difference between Cafetto and dishwasher powder?

    Thx
    In simple terms
    All cleaning chemicals have a PH balance
    Alkaline, Neutral, Acid + applicable additives

    Its this fine balance that determines what chemical mixture is good for a purpose

    If dishwasher detergent is of the same composition then it will be OK but its probably closer to neutral and coffee cleaner is more on the acidic side

    KK




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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 183C353536360C183C203E3C530 link=1248922420/44#44 date=1249987783
    If dishwasher detergent is of the same composition

    I wonder?

  47. #47
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 1D425A4C474C4049494A4A424E412F0 link=1248922420/43#43 date=1249987503
    ....and that takes the cake for the silliest thing I have ever read on this forum... ::)

    Would you drink it??? :-?
    I would not drink either of them 2mcm
    You can try Caffeto and tell me what its like :-? ;D

    KK

  48. #48
    Gra
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    You might as well go the hole hog and through in some de- greaser;D ;D ;D..... Just kidding,,,

    Cheers Gra...

  49. #49
    Senior Member caffeol's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Quote Originally Posted by 52767F7F7C7C4652766A7476190 link=1248922420/44#44 date=1249987783
    If dishwasher detergent is of the same composition then it will be OK but its probably closer to neutral
    Actually most dishwasher detergents were highly alkaline last time I looked KK.

    Provided its rinsed, dishwasher detergent aint gonna kill you as I prove every day but who knows where its going or what its doing to the various metals & seals in your machine.

    I only have so many chemistry brain cells left and I would rather try and wrap them around coffee roasting than cleaning. I use Clean Machine and has been said before it (and Caffeto) works out cheap enough in the 500g tub. Happy for them to have researched it and signed off on all the safety and fit for purpose issues.



  50. #50
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Cleaning agents

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by 5951464605340 link=1248922420/42#42 date=1249986500
    Surely there cant be much difference between Cafetto and dishwasher powder?
    Would you put diesel in your car if its meant to run on petrol?

    Surely there cant be much difference between diesel and petrol?



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