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Thread: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

  1. #1
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    Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Gday everyone I have just ordered a Rancilio Silvia 2009 espresso machine and have had suggestions to use distilled water in the machine instead of tap water to make coffee. I would like to know other coffee brewers experiences with this and if it is an issue to be concerned about or is tap water just as good to make coffee? Followed by regular cleaning and descaling of the espresso machine to maintain great coffee flavor and good working order of my machine.
    Regards
    Andy

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    A_M
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1C322B333F3D356C6F5E0 link=1256465536/0#0 date=1256465536
    Gday everyone I have just ordered a Rancilio Silvia 2009 espresso machine and have had suggestions to use distilled water in the machine instead of tap water to make coffee. I would like to know other coffee brewers experiences with this and if it is an issue to be concerned about or is tap water just as good to make coffee? Followed by regular cleaning and descaling of the espresso machine to maintain great coffee flavor and good working order of my machine.
    Regards
    Andy
    Do a search on CS as to water quality... It has been disscussed in full many times..

    1: Tap water - Depends where you are as to how good / bad it is.

    2: Filtered water is the best - But filtered water is not all teh same.

    3: Distiled water is not recomended for many reasons and should not be use in some machines...


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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Grab a filter solution from Bombora, using a Brita Jug will not reduce the effects of scale.

    I just installed one and now have put the Brita jug in the cupboard and all the family drink the filtered water from the new sytem. It is so much simpler and less hassle than using the jub. I consider it a wise investment given the money i invested on my coffee equipment.

    Mal

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 507F7674635C707F7076747C747F65110 link=1256465536/1#1 date=1256465845

    Do a search on CS as to water quality... It has been disscussed in full many times..

    1: Tap water - Depends where you are as to how good / bad it is.

    2: Filtered water is *the best - But filtered water is not all teh same.

    3: Distiled water is not recomended for many reasons and should not be use in some machines...
    Ill just add to what AM said. Distilled water is not necessarily bad, it all depends on your machine. Distilled water cant be any worse than the water it came from :) - in terms of corrosion/scale - but it does confuse some water level sensors that work off conductivity between probes.
    Distillation will remove calcium, iron and magnesium which are the prime sources of scale.

    Are you intending to buy or distill yourself? If the former I would recommend buying de-ionised water rather than distilled water - you still have the issue of some water sensors not working with de-ionised water:)

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Hi Andy,

    You wont find too many in the industry recommending distilled water in any coffee machine. Its near enough to untreated RO water and the stuff kills machines unless its remineralised. No ions in the water will influence taste and can leach some machines as well.

    x2 for the suggestion that you would be better off to get a proper coffee filter from Bombora or similar. Note also that drinking water filters are NOT coffee filters as the remove little if anything which will cause scale.

    There is plenty to read on filtration and use of the search button should assist.

    2mcm

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    A_M
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6C332B3D363D3138383B3B333F305E0 link=1256465536/4#4 date=1256600172
    Hi Andy,

    You wont find too many in the industry recommending distilled water in any coffee machine. Its near enough to untreated RO water and the stuff kills machines unless its remineralised. No ions in the water will influence taste and can leach some machines as well.

    x2 for the suggestion that you would be better off to get a proper coffee filter from Bombora or similar. Note also that drinking water filters are NOT coffee filters as the remove little if anything which will cause scale.

    There is plenty to read on filtration and use of the search button should assist.

    2mcm
    Agree fully 2mcm...

    One should never drink PURE water ie Fully distilled and or de mineralised.. It will leach many of the good irons from your body (equipment) to bring it back to a natural state.

    Even the stuff you get for irons etc from the shop... Will sate NOT FOR DRINKING...

    This has all been covered off in a great CS sticky...

    See here: http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1245022812

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 39667E686368646D6D6E6E666A650B0 link=1256465536/4#4 date=1256600172
    You wont find too many in the industry recommending distilled water in any coffee machine. Its near enough to untreated RO water and the stuff kills machines unless its remineralised. No ions in the water will influence taste and can leach some machines as well.
    Ive seen this stated several times on this site, and Id like to challenge this and challenge it vigorously. Pure water can do nothing to damage a coffee machine. Pure water is as benign a liquid as we can put through a coffee machine with copper, chrome or stainless steel internals. A fact Ill stand behind with the utmost confidence. I can show Pourbaix diagrams and corrosion tables till they bore you to death but thatd be a bit silly IMHO ;D
    Im not trying to be difficult, or contrary :) Im a practising industrial chemist, specifically Im a hydrometallurgy specialist (I do chemistry with metals in water based solutions ;)), so this stuff is second nature to me. If there is proof that Im incorrect Id really like to see it - Im sincere about that :)

    Please note that I have said nothing about flavour. Minerals in water have a large impact on the flavor of beverages, both good and bad - but this wasnt asked in the above post :) A cop out, I know ::)

    ps/edit As an industry insider I know the equipment used for demineralisation and distillation - this is why I recommended demin water rather than distilled water for those wishing to purchase pure water ;)

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4676617369656A040 link=1256465536/6#6 date=1256640930
    Im a hydrometallurgy specialist (I do chemistry with metals in water based solutions Wink), so this stuff is second nature to me. If there is proof that Im incorrect Id really like to see it - Im sincere about that Smiley
    With respect, I wonder if your experience includes the effects of metals and minerals in espresso machine boilers and associated piping? Rather than asking for proof that you may be incorrect (and I dont have any at hand to offer) I for one would be very interested to read proof that you are correct. After all, isnt that what good science does?

    Cheers! :)


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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    The laws of physics only work up to, but not including espresso machines (a well known fact, every body knows it).

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 01202B2B2C36450 link=1256465536/7#7 date=1256642606
    Quote Originally Posted by 4676617369656A040 link=1256465536/6#6 date=1256640930
    Im a hydrometallurgy specialist (I do chemistry with metals in water based solutions Wink), so this stuff is second nature to me. If there is proof that Im incorrect Id really like to see it - Im sincere about that Smiley
    With respect, I wonder if your experience includes the effects of metals and minerals in espresso machine boilers and associated piping?
    No offense taken :)
    Short answer, I work at a facility where all heating is performed with steam. Corrosion, scale and the selection of appropriate materials is a major issue for us because the consequences of a failure can be disastrous, in so many ways. Our boiler operates just like the one in a coffee machine, its just bigger.

    Minerals enhance the corrosive-ness (thats a technical word ;D) of a solution by increasing the ionic strength of the solution, sometimes they can corrode when theory says they shouldnt eg. localised (pinhole) corrosion on 304L stainless in the presence of moderate chloride concentrations. The less ions (dissolved minerals) the less corrosive water based solutions become. By axiom, pure water is the least corrosive water solution :)

    Quote Originally Posted by 01202B2B2C36450 link=1256465536/7#7 date=1256642606
    Rather than asking for proof that you may be incorrect (and I dont have any at hand to offer) I for one would be very interested to read proof that you are correct. *After all, isnt that what good science does?

    Cheers! :)
    Exactly! Good science should be debated and proven :)
    Please dont think I was being aggressive above, just the opposite, rather than going on the attack I was trying to share some of what I know.

    I can/will present the data ASAP. The easiest to present and understand is corrosion tables. Pourbaix diagrams are difficult to explain to most chemists let alone people without a technical background :-? so they can be left out for the moment.

    Scale is a separate issue to corrosion but you cant form scale if you have pure water so again it is benign in your boiler. Scale forms from the precipitation of calcium and magnesium carbonate when you heat water. equation below

    Ca2+ + CO32- --> CaCO3
    and
    Mg2+ + CO32- --> MgCO3

    Carbonate is present in water from dissolved carbon dioxide, you cant do much about that. But remove the calcium and magnesium and scale cannot form :)

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    A_M
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0737203228242B450 link=1256465536/6#6 date=1256640930
    Quote Originally Posted by 39667E686368646D6D6E6E666A650B0 link=1256465536/4#4 date=1256600172
    You wont find too many in the industry recommending distilled water in any coffee machine. Its near enough to untreated RO water and the stuff kills machines unless its remineralised. No ions in the water will influence taste and can leach some machines as well.
    Ive seen this stated several times on this site, and Id like to challenge this and challenge it vigorously. Pure water can do nothing to damage a coffee machine. Pure water is as benign a liquid as we can put through a coffee machine with copper, chrome or stainless steel internals. A fact Ill stand behind with the utmost confidence. I can show Pourbaix diagrams and corrosion tables till they bore you to death but thatd be a bit silly IMHO ;D
    Im not trying to be difficult, or contrary :) Im a practising industrial chemist, specifically Im a hydrometallurgy specialist (I do chemistry with metals in water based solutions ;)), so this stuff is second nature to me. If there is proof that Im incorrect Id really like to see it - Im sincere about that :)

    Please note that I have said nothing about flavour. Minerals in water have a large impact on the flavor of beverages, both good and bad - but this wasnt asked in the above post :) A cop out, I know ::)

    ps/edit As an industry insider I know the equipment used for demineralisation and distillation - this is why I recommended demin water rather than distilled water for those wishing to purchase pure water ;)
    OSMOSIS - *That is why people with kidney problems who under go treatment have de mineralised / ro water passed over a membrain that has their blood on the other side... *The pure water SUCKS all the minerals and other stuff out of their blood... *WHY because the water wants to return to its NATURAL state...


    If that is benign... Then your stats and info is missing some very important context... *No manufacturer would recomend it - other than where they then sell an additive to add to the said water...

    Get ya bloods done, then spend a day drinking RO water and get ya bloods done again... *You will cause the lab to have a fit... *Unless you manipulate the test and have other fluids and take suplements to replentish what the RO */ De miniralised takes out..

    Oh and if ya keep drinking just RO water.. Expect to end up in hospital... *Read the fine print... *Many sports drinks talk about RO / Distilled / de menerailised water as a base... Then they add back all the stuff they took out and charge ya double... *Want some elephant coffee... *Cheep only $250 for 250g... Top stuff and is the next hot bean... Tust me... *Oh... Ya dont need a bridge as well ?

    As to corrousion / scale etc etc then while pure water may not have the extra crap in it... Via OSMOSIS it will leach the said missing components from where ever it can... End result is that it is not ideal.. Better to have filtered water with a softner...


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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Hi Bm... :)

    I think the origin of concerns regarding the use of distilled or RO water in espresso machines, stems from the fact that this water very quickly takes on CO2 resulting in the water becoming acidic. This then promotes galvanic corrosion between the dissimilar metals that exist within the hydraulic circuits of the machine resulting in surface pitting. Ive read that this occurs, in several independent sources, so Ill attempt to dig these up and post them up here....

    All the best,
    Mal.

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    [QUOTE=735C5557407F535C5355575F575C46320 link=1256465536/10#10 date=1256646326]
    Quote Originally Posted by 0737203228242B450 link=1256465536/6#6 date=1256640930
    OSMOSIS - *That is why people with kidney problems who under go treatment have de mineralised / ro water passed over a membrain that has their blood on the other side... *The pure water SUCKS all the minerals and other stuff out of their blood... *WHY because the water wants to return to its NATURAL state...


    If that is benign... Then your stats and info is missing some very important context... *No manufacturer would recomend it - other than where they then sell an additive to add to the said water...

    Get ya bloods done, then spend a day drinking RO water and get ya bloods done again... *You will cause the lab to have a fit... *Unless you manipulate the test and have other fluids and take suplements to replentish what the RO */ De miniralised takes out..
    All correct, as far as I know :) Youll notice Ive gingerly stepped around effects of pure water on the body. That is a totally different phenomenon to the chemical effects inside a coffee machine. What I would like to see is the difference in mineral content of coffee using DI water and tap water -that would be very interesting and put this debate to bed one way or the other:) If anyone is interested, I have access to the appropriate resources (my wife works at a commercial laboratory :)) and I can carry this out.

    [QUOTE=735C5557407F535C5355575F575C46320 link=1256465536/10#10 date=1256646326]
    Quote Originally Posted by 0737203228242B450 link=1256465536/6#6 date=1256640930
    As to corrousion / scale etc etc then while pure water may not have the extra crap in it... *Via OSMOSIS it will leach the said missing components from where ever it can... *End result is that it is not ideal.. *Better to have filtered water with a softner...
    This is two different concepts. Osmosis is transfer across a membrane, leaching is direct chemistry. My knowledge of the first is passing but, without being immodest, my knowledge of the second is strong.

    [QUOTE=735C5557407F535C5355575F575C46320 link=1256465536/10#10 date=1256646326]
    Quote Originally Posted by 0737203228242B450 link=1256465536/6#6 date=1256640930
    Better to have filtered water with a softner...
    I agree wholeheartedly, but I can understand the desire to look after your machine to the utmost of your ability which is where DI water comes into its own :)

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5C71757974180 link=1256465536/11#11 date=1256660533
    Hi Bm... :)

    I think the origin of concerns regarding the use of distilled or RO water in espresso machines, stems from the fact that this water very quickly takes on CO2 resulting in the water becoming acidic. This then promotes galvanic corrosion between the dissimilar metals that exist within the hydraulic circuits of the machine resulting in surface pitting. Ive read that this occurs, in several independent sources, so Ill attempt to dig these up and post them up here....

    All the best,
    Mal.
    Thanks Mal :) Id appreciate that.

    Without pre-empting the results Ill offer the following. :-?
    Absorption of CO2, to form carbonic acid occurs in any water. Fortunately it only pushes the pH down a small amount (it takes several days for absorption of CO2 to push the pH down from 8 - towns water controlled level- to 6.5 - the natural carbonic acid pH). Most metal carbonates are insoluble and form a protective layer.
    Galvanic corrosion occurs wherever you have two different metals in contact with each other - the degree of corrosion is dependent on the metals - and is accelerated by water with dissolved minerals as they aid the electron transfer.

    Cheers
    Dan

    ps copper is the most susceptible metal to any nastyness, so anything that is safe for the copper is safe for chrome plating and stainless - another useless piece of trivia :D

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    I ran 20 litres of RO water through my Diadema as part of a problem-solving strategy, and while everything worked well in the short time the practice was in place, it did make the most ordinary, flat, uninteresting coffee you would never want to have.

    I now run a system from Bombora with a ion-exchange softener and a 1 micron carbon filter that produces water very close to the ideal for coffee and the taste is much better.

    If I had a choice of tap or distilled, Id be using a mixture of both to get the dissolved minerals in the 50 ppm range.

    Greg


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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 46736466566E736C606D65010 link=1256465536/14#14 date=1256684385
    I ran 20 litres of RO water through my Diadema as part of a problem-solving strategy, and while everything worked well in the short time the practice was in place, it did make the most ordinary, flat, uninteresting coffee you would never want to have.
    This is very interesting, and is actually another test that I was considering, taste of DI coffee Vs mineralised coffee - for want of better descriptors ;)
    Its pointless making awful coffee ;D

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Lifted straight from Sandviks site http://www.smt.sandvik.com/ go to the "Technical Centre"
    My contact with corrosion tables has changed jobs, so now I have to make a trip to the library if I want access to corrosion tables :( which is why you are subjected to the data below.
    This is extreme levels of dissolved subtances but it highlights the trend==> the higher the dissolved substances and the higher the temp, the greater the corrosion. This holds true for all metals.
    My apologies once again for the dreadful formatting but sandvik dont allow links directly to their technical data. The item on the start of each line is various grades of steel ranging from standard carbon steel through to high molybdenum content stainless steel..


    Corrosion tables
    Calcium chloride

    Conc. CaCl2% 5 *5 * *5 *10
    Temp. C *20 50 100 20
    Carbon Steel * 2 * 2 * *2 * *2
    13% Cr-Steel 0p 1p 1p 1p
    18-2 *0p 0p 0p 0p
    Sandvik 3R12 0p 0p 0ps 0p
    Sandvik 3R60 0p 0p 0ps 0p
    18-13-3 * 0p 0p 0ps 0p
    17-14-4 * 0p 0p 0ps 0p
    Sandvik 2RK65 0p 0p 0ps 0p
    Sandvik Sanicro 28 * *0 *
    Sandvik 254 SMO 0 *
    654 SMO 0 *
    Sandvik SAF 2304 0 *
    Sandvik SAF 2205 0 *
    Sandvik SAF 2507 0 *

    Conc. CaCl2% 10 *10 *10 * 25 * 40 *62
    Temp. C * *50 100 135 100 100 155
    Carbon Steel * *2 * *2 2 * *2 *
    13% Cr-Steel * *1p 1p * * 1p *2 *
    18-2 * * 0p 0p * * 0p *0p *
    Sandvik 3R12 * *0p 0ps * 0ps 0ps *
    Sandvik 3R60 * * 0p 0ps *0ps 0ps *
    18-13-3 0p 0ps * 0ps 0ps *
    17-14-4 0p 0ps * 0ps 0ps *
    Sandvik 2RK65 * 0p 0ps * 0ps 0ps *
    Sandvik Sanicro 28 * 0c *0ND *0ps *
    Sandvik 254 SMO 0p *0pc 0s *
    654 SMO 0 * *0pc *0ps *
    Sandvik SAF 2304 0p *0p * 0p *
    Sandvik SAF 2205 0p *0p * 0ps *
    Sandvik SAF 2507 0 * *0p * 0ps *



    Symbols
    These corrosion tables use a number of symbols, having the following meanings: Symbol Description
    0 = Corrosion rate less than 0.1 mm/year. The material is corrosion proof.
    1 = Corrosion rate 0.1 1.0 mm/year.The material is not corrosion proof, but useful in certain cases.
    2 = Corrosion rate over 1.0 mm/year. Serious corrosion. The material is not usable.
    p, P = Risk (Severe risk) of pitting and crevice corrosion.
    c, C = Risk (Severe risk) of crevice corrosion. Used when there is a risk of localised corrosion only if crevices are present. Under more severe conditions, when there is also a risk of pitting corrosion, the symbols p or P are used instead.
    s, S = *Risk (Severe risk) of stress corrosion cracking.
    ig = Risk of intergranular corrosion.
    BP = Boiling solution.
    ND = No data. (Used only where there are no actual data to estimate the risk of localised corrosion instead of p or s).
    Note that the remarks ig, p and s are normally only used where the symbol for general corrosion rate is 0 or 1.

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    A_M
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    In a nut shell... Remove all the numbers and confusion...

    What are we doing with the water..

    DRINKING IT.... * Yes, after using coffee grinds as a filter....

    Thus.. why do we drink water..... *Because our body need fulids and minerals etc... *Some times we even like the additives.. Coffee / Booze or sugar *:D

    Reverse osmosis systems were originally developed to serve the needs of the printing and photo processing companies. These groups need mineral-free water for their work. As noted above, this feature results in mineral-poor water, which could lead to mineral deficiencies in the body.


    The human body needs essential minerals like calcium, iron and potassium to have strong bones, muscles and tissues. These minerals are available through drinking water. When these minerals are removed, the body becomes out of balance and becomes susceptible to illness.

    An additional concern of de-mineralized water is that the body tries to compensate by giving up minerals from the bones. This makes the fluid in your body more acidic, which contributes to cancer-causing free radicals in the blood stream and other parts of the body.

    It is clear from this summary that the question "Does reverse osmosis make water safe to drink" can only be answered with caution.

    The reality is that the process is best used for industrial needs. When used for drinking water production, the disadvantages of reverse osmosis seem to outweigh the benefits. Consumers need to keep this information in mind as they search for the best water purification system for their needs.

    So all you women and older men that may be worried about ya bones etc etc USe RO water for ya coffee - Get use to the crappy quality coffee and spend up big in the chemest to suplement all the extra minerals etc that the RO water has sucked from ya body..

    Conclusion...

    I want good coffee and happy for some minor maintenance to my machine to manage any small amounts of corrusion that might develop.

    And I can save money and remain healthy with strong bones that may even surrive a fall later on in life. *

    Note: Falls and broken hips is often the telling factor that see people pass away much sooner than they should..

    *NO RO for me *;)

    PS. On an iphone this is a bloody pain.. Blind (too many cigs) and a tiny kb..

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Im quite open to the idea that using high purity water may be bad for coffee making, in fact after reading GregWs post Im fairly certain its not the best thing to make coffee with. I dont use it, I use softened water - via ion exchange resin. ::)

    What I will argue very strongly against is that high purity water damages a coffee machine, its simply not true! :(
    You will notice that I have never strayed away from this technicality. Taste and impact on the human body are not areas I have enough expertise to argue with any conviction and I dared not comment on them.

    If high purity water makes poor tasting coffee, therein is a reason for not using it, case closed! But until GWs post above Ive never seen that argument proposed, by anyone. Although I did suspect it may be the case as it has a big impact on the flavor of beer :o.

    As to the health issues, Im unconvinced either way but I am searching for the truth. The extraction of coffee will leach minerals from the grounds. Does this conteract the purity of the water? Its something Id like to check firsthand rather than leave to supposition or theorising - this often tends to become urban myth and I hate urban myths being held as truth :P Thankgod for the mythbusters :D
    I will warn you know that Im not a person that accepts "do this, its the best way", I also want to know how it works and why it works that way :P SO when Im told something I know is not right, well look above ::)

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    A_M
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 714156445E525D330 link=1256465536/18#18 date=1256719228
    What I will argue very strongly against is that high purity water damages a coffee machine, its simply not true!Sad
    I am sure any number of Suppliers and users can attest to the fact that the statementis above is false in any number of cases and for different reasons.

    As to the heath impacts.. After 25 years in Pathology, Renal Support and bioMedical Eng along with metel trade experience with boilers etc... I am only going to suggest you go and do some real study on Biology and Body Chemistry.

    In the short term... Try a self experement and do sub ya mineral intake..

    As for me.. I may die of LL Cancer but will have strong bones and coffee stained teeth 8-)

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1C333A382F103C333C3A38303833295D0 link=1256465536/19#19 date=1256723894
    Quote Originally Posted by 714156445E525D330 link=1256465536/18#18 date=1256719228
    What I will argue very strongly against is that high purity water damages a coffee machine, its simply not true!Sad *
    I am sure any number of Suppliers and users can attest to the fact that the statementis above is false in any number of cases and for different reasons.

    Ive come to the conclusion that we love to argue with each other ;D ;) And youre trying to arc me up! :D

    When someone presents evidence that pure water has damaged an espresso machine, I will view it nuetrally and objectively and with a deal of professional knowledge. I dont mean to be a conceited prick but Im not some hack quoting chemistry out of a textbook, this is my area of professional expertise. I know pure water cannot cause premature failure, corrosion or scale. Much smarter men than me have already proven it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1C333A382F103C333C3A38303833295D0 link=1256465536/19#19 date=1256723894
    As for me.. I may die of LL Cancer but will have strong bones and coffee stained teeth 8-)
    ^^At least youll make me laugh in the meantime ;D

  22. #22
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 033324362C202F410 link=1256465536/20#20 date=1256729744
    When someone presents evidence that pure water has damaged an espresso machine,
    Cut and paste ... I is tired and have real work to do...

    Distilled And Reverse Osmosis (RO)

    The process of distilling/deionizing (DI) water or treating it through RO nearly removes all minerals, impurities, and other ions in the water. First and foremost, this gives any coffee product made with such water a flat taste because the coffees aroma particles will not completely transfer to the water.

    More importantly this kind of water is actually considered corrosive with a pH of about 5.

    Distilled and RO water will also strive to return to a neutral state by leeching the copper, brass, or aluminum from the internal parts of your brewing equipment like the Ascaso Dream. Over time, and depending on the extent of use, enough metal could be removed causing an electrical short or a leak. Also, heat exchanger espresso machines like the Nuova Oscar or Pasquini Livia, use electromagnetic sensor to detect water levels and will not function properly with these types of water. If you choose from the Jura-Capresso line of products, this is not a problem because of their stainless steel-lined heating systems, but taste would still be an issue. If you have a home RO system and want to use that water with your equipment, it is advisable to install a mineral or pH-balancing unit to protect your machine and any household copper plumbing.

    Depending on your squint... I would suggest that any machine that uses a conductive sensor arrangement will not work as intended and in some cases can cause flooding and further issues.. Thus damage to a coffee machine...

    To me... A machine that will not work as intended and without additional processes being put into action - is damaged...

    Reminds me a a previous girlfriend errr wife number 1 or 2... Can not remember.. Lovely people... BUT DAMAGED...

    PS... a min 2.5 kg of green beens by courier will be a suitable appology... What does Andy have going at the moment..

    Hint - Go here http://beanbay.coffeesnobs.com.au/ViewCategory.aspx/GreenCoffee ;)

  23. #23
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Gday AM... :)

    Do you have a link to the original document which contains the excerpt above?

    Mal.

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 74595D515C300 link=1256465536/22#22 date=1256737001
    Gday AM... :)

    Do you have a link to the original document which contains the excerpt above?

    Mal.
    Google is ya mate..

    It was from Gourmet geeks http://www.jlhufford.com/ and is a 2008 archive artical.. *Some interesting spice drinks lower down the page... May have to give them a go...

    http://www.jlhufford.com/blog/?view=archives&month=9&year=2008

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 18373E3C2B143837383E3C343C372D590 link=1256465536/21#21 date=1256734220
    Quote Originally Posted by 033324362C202F410 link=1256465536/20#20 date=1256729744
    When someone presents evidence that pure water has damaged an espresso machine, *
    Cut and paste ... I is tired and have real work to do...

    Distilled And Reverse Osmosis (RO)

    The process of distilling/deionizing (DI) water or treating it through RO nearly removes all minerals, impurities, and other ions in the water. First and foremost, this gives any coffee product made with such water a flat taste
    No argument from me :)



    Quote Originally Posted by 18373E3C2B143837383E3C343C372D590 link=1256465536/21#21 date=1256734220
    [Distilled and RO water will also strive to return to a neutral state by leeching the copper, brass, or aluminum from the internal parts of your brewing equipment like the Ascaso Dream
    Wrong and is purely conjecture. Place a lump of aluminium, copper or brass in some DI boiling water and see how long it takes to corrode. We are talking tens to hundreds of years - longer than the life of the machine Im guessing.
    The standard corrosion testing prcedure is to place a 50x20x2mm strip of metal into the solution and reflux for a minimum of one month, remove, measure, weigh -->calculate corrosion rate in mm/year. We conduct these tests regularly.
    All three metals form protective passive layers which is why they are used. This doesnt mean the layer cannot be stripped off and the metal corroded/dissolved but it cant be done with drinking or purer quality water.

    Quote Originally Posted by 18373E3C2B143837383E3C343C372D590 link=1256465536/21#21 date=1256734220
    [Distilled and RO water will also strive to return to a neutral state by leeching the copper, brass, or aluminum from the internal parts of your brewing equipment like the Ascaso Dream.[/u] Over time, and depending on the extent of use, enough metal could be removed causing an electrical short or a leak. Also, heat exchanger espresso machines like the Nuova Oscar or Pasquini Livia, use electromagnetic sensor to detect water levels and will not function properly with these types of water. If you choose from the Jura-Capresso line of products, this is not a problem because of their stainless steel-lined heating systems, but taste would still be an issue. If you have a home RO system and want to use that water with your equipment, it is advisable to install a mineral or pH-balancing unit to protect your machine and any household copper plumbing.
    Quote Originally Posted by 18373E3C2B143837383E3C343C372D590 link=1256465536/21#21 date=1256734220
    [Depending on your squint... *I would suggest that any machine that uses a conductive sensor arrangement will not work as intended and in some cases can cause flooding and further issues..
    True!

    Quote Originally Posted by 18373E3C2B143837383E3C343C372D590 link=1256465536/21#21 date=1256734220
    To me... A machine that will not work as intended and without additional processes being put into action - is damaged...

    Reminds me a a previous girlfriend errr wife number 1 or 2... Can not remember.. *Lovely people... BUT DAMAGED...

    PS... *a min 2.5 kg of green beens by courier will be a suitable appology... *What does Andy have going at the moment..

    Hint - Go here http://beanbay.coffeesnobs.com.au/ViewCategory.aspx/GreenCoffee *;)
    I may buy you the beans just for making me laugh again!!! ;D

  26. #26
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    http://beanbay.coffeesnobs.com.au/ViewProduct.aspx/357-ethiopia-kuza

    Will be fine :-)

    Just have them sent to Veneziano in Brisbane for a local pick up... If ya do it at BeanBay time... Ya save on postage ;)

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 69594E5C464A452B0 link=1256465536/24#24 date=1256771195
    Wrong and is purely conjecture. Place a lump of aluminium, copper or brass in some DI boiling water and see how long it takes to corrode. We are talking tens to hundreds of years - longer than the life of the machine Im guessing.
    The standard corrosion testing prcedure is to place a 50x20x2mm strip of metal into the solution and reflux for a minimum of one month, remove, measure, weigh -->calculate corrosion rate in mm/year. We conduct these tests regularly.
    True... But tis not Apples with apples..

    A lump of copper in a static container of RO water and in a short time the osmosis with stablise.. They will reach a balance.. Then the usual shit happens... But the reaction in effect STOPS...

    The issue here, is that in a coffee machine you are continually pasing the water across the metals... Thus the reaction is ongoing.. Then add Heat / Cold / Preasure and any number of other factors and the rate of transfer between the base metal and the RO water is magnified many times over...

    * Same issue for treating Kidney issues -dialysis. Thus you need a continious flow of RO water to allow the minerals in the right quanties to be removed... Speed up the flow and the temp to manage the rate of removal...*

    The issue here is the rate of change and ongoing addition of a fulid that is wanting to suck godies due to OMOSIS Vs static...

    Put another way... Put crappy tap water in ya bucket / container and see what scale etc is deposited... Boil it in a jug and you will be hard pressed to visually see the deposit...

    But do it with new water every time and the scale is built up due to the fresh minerals being added to the solution...

    Static Vs Dynamic:

    Wife 1 and 2 were static... :-?

    Wife 3 is Dynamic... Much more realistic but interestng to manage... :D

  28. #28
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 012E2725320D212E2127252D252E34400 link=1256465536/26#26 date=1256774408
    Static Vs Dynamic:

    Wife 1 and 2 were static...Huh

    Wife 3 is Dynamic...Much more realistic but interesting to manage...Cheesy
    How many wifes have you got AM ;D

    KK

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 406F6664734C606F6066646C646F75010 link=1256465536/26#26 date=1256774408
    Quote Originally Posted by 69594E5C464A452B0 link=1256465536/24#24 date=1256771195
    Wrong and is purely conjecture. Place a lump of aluminium, copper or brass in some DI boiling water and see how long it takes to corrode. We are talking tens to hundreds of years - longer than the life of the machine Im guessing.
    The standard corrosion testing prcedure is to place a 50x20x2mm strip of metal into the solution and reflux for a minimum of one month, remove, measure, weigh -->calculate corrosion rate in mm/year. We conduct these tests regularly. *
    True... *But tis not Apples with apples..

    A lump of copper in a static container of RO water and in a short time the osmosis with stablise.. They will reach a balance.. *Then the usual sh!t happens... *But the reaction in effect STOPS...
    Geez, and I thought this thread was over ;)

    The reaction stops quickly either way because of the passive layer that forms on the surface of the metal, these are oxides of the relative metals. Its not perfect but its damn good (paint is the best analogy I can give) which is why piping made from these metals lasts such a long time. Iron on the other hand forms a porous layer that allows water through to the fresh metal underneath hence the reason municipal water authorities maintian a pH of approx 8 but Im digressing.
    The pH of 5 above is a gross overstatement, the only way you will get a pH that low with CO2 is if you actively bubble CO2 through the solution - its a technique we use often to adjust pH without using mineral acids, it also has the benefit of precipitating all heavy metals. Natural water will equilibrate at pH 6-6.5. (Tank/rain water is a good confirmation of this) But anyway, even at pH 5 the only thing that will happen is youll form a passive metal carbonate layer IF a passive layer has not already been established.

    Quote Originally Posted by 406F6664734C606F6066646C646F75010 link=1256465536/26#26 date=1256774408
    Put another way... *Put *crappy tap water in ya bucket / container and see what scale etc is *deposited... * *Boil it in a jug and you will be hard pressed to visually see the deposit...

    But do it with new water every time and the scale is built up due to the fresh minerals being added to the solution...
    But with DI water there is nothing available from which scale can form :) In fact there is nothing available for anything - I find that quite funny, no I havent been drinking :D

    Quote Originally Posted by 406F6664734C606F6066646C646F75010 link=1256465536/26#26 date=1256774408
    Static Vs Dynamic:

    Wife 1 and 2 were static... *:-?

    Wife 3 is Dynamic... *Much more realistic but interestng to manage... *:D
    You have an unique view on life ;D

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    ps Ive got to hand it too you AM, for a person thats not a chemist youve mounted a fine charge :) ;) Its more lucid than Ive encountered from chemists Ive worked with ;)
    It just struck me how logical youre arguments were, coming from your established basis, and I thought it should be noted 8-)
    Now that the niceties are over we can put the gloves back on!

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    You guys should get together over a coffee.......or a glass of water or two!, i think you would enjoy each others company, I had a laugh..............enjoying the topic, keep it up boys!

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4C7C6B79636F600E0 link=1256465536/29#29 date=1256786345
    ps Ive got to hand it too you AM, for a person thats not a chemist youve mounted a fine charge :) ;) Its more lucid than Ive encountered from chemists Ive worked with ;)
    It just struck me how logical youre arguments were, coming from your established basis, and I thought it should be noted 8-)
    Now that the niceties are over we can put the gloves back on!
    I respect your open comments... But resuse to accept the bait that you tossing out to me ;)

    Err give me a second... Ok... Wife number 3 has been satisified...

    Now where were we...
    Quote Originally Posted by 4C7C6B79636F600E0 link=1256465536/28#28 date=1256782192
    AngerManagement wrote on Today at 11:00:
    Put another way...Putcrappy tap water in ya bucket / container and see what scale etc isdeposited...Boil it in a jug and you will be hard pressed to visually see the deposit...

    But do it with new water every time and the scale is built up due to the fresh minerals being added to the solution...


    But with DI water there is nothing available from which scale can form Smiley In fact there is nothing available for anything - I find that quite funny, no I havent been drinking Cheesy
    My issue here was NOT the scale, but the fact that ongoing fresh RO water will continue to leach minerals from the coffee machine as it never gets time to balance out..

    You previous comments as to how it might be tested... Is relevent for a static install..

    To actually evaluate the amount of material being leached and or thus having a negative impact on the base material - weekened... An issue with PRESSURE vessels.

    You would need to change your testing method... I am sure that you will see the logic as to a static container and a process that will balance out; Vs a dynamic situation where the base material is being subjected to a fresh and hungry fluid that is being presented to it... Add in some heat and even if the boiler or pipes manage it for some time... The heating elements will suffer at a faster rate...

    Now before you race off and do it ;) ....

    I would be interested in what and how you intend to measure.... Remember "if it matters count it" as many assume and forget to count / measure the right things.

    Base product;

    1: Mass
    2: Size
    4: Skin
    5: Permeability- as in fluid mechanics and the earth sciences
    6: Stress testing - Brittle etc etc
    7: etc

    Oh and then collect and recover the said leached materials from ALL the RO water that has been in contact with the base metal.

    A: Flow rate and cycling of water temp and wait / static times yet to be defined.


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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    [QUOTE=4F60696B7C436F606F696B636B607A0E0 link=1256465536/31#31 date=1256787474]
    Quote Originally Posted by 4C7C6B79636F600E0 link=1256465536/29#29 date=1256786345

    My issue here was NOT the scale, but the fact that ongoing fresh RO water will continue to leach minerals from the coffee machine as it never gets time to balance out..
    DI/RO water has no ions that can break through the passive layer to initiate the corrosion (what you refer to as leaching). This is the crux of my argument, with zero ions there are no/minimal opportunities to aid galvanic corosion or to start pinhole/crevice corrosion - the latter being the source of the "leaching". It doesnt matter whether the system is static or dynamic, less ions means less corosion/leaching.

    Do you find it amusing that we are arguing about merits/demerits of water neither of us use? :D

  34. #34
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    [QUOTE=013126342E222D430 link=1256465536/32#32 date=1256816427]
    Quote Originally Posted by 4F60696B7C436F606F696B636B607A0E0 link=1256465536/31#31 date=1256787474
    Quote Originally Posted by 4C7C6B79636F600E0 link=1256465536/29#29 date=1256786345

    My issue here was NOT the scale, but the fact that ongoing fresh RO water will continue to leach minerals from the coffee machine as it never gets time to balance out..
    DI/RO water has no ions that can break through the passive layer to initiate the corrosion (what you refer to as leaching). This is the crux of my argument, with zero ions there are no/minimal opportunities to aid galvanic corosion or to start pinhole/crevice corrosion - the latter being the source of the "leaching". It doesnt matter whether the system is static or dynamic, less ions means less corosion/leaching.

    Do you find it amusing that we are arguing about merits/demerits of water neither of us use? :D
    Actualy I do use it but for other uses ;)

    I also think that some terms and assumptions are also clouding our disscussion...

    However it has been interesting and I am assuming many may be following the thread and waiting for a blow up and or an oppertunity to comment ;D

    Anyway... Off to roast some South American beans for the Ballet this weekend.. I am in teh first Act and thus pre show and back stage afterwards; I will have a second role to play... Coffee Bitch :D

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    I am going to change my angle of attack in an attempt to get you to change your point of view ;) Trouble is Im extremely busy today and dont have time for a detailed post so Ill be back later. You can sit back and read it while drinking your freshly roasted beans ;D

    ps I use DI water for my radiator too :D

  36. #36
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5F6F786A707C731D0 link=1256465536/34#34 date=1256867775
    I am going to change my angle of attack in an attempt to get you to change your point of view ;) Trouble is Im extremely busy today and dont have time for a detailed post so Ill be back later. You can sit back and read it while drinking your freshly roasted beans ;D

    ps I use DI water for my radiator too :D
    Only after adding significant additives... I trust.

    DI for me only when running special experiments and the iron...

  37. #37
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    My daughter owns a beauty salon
    She uses distilled and or de-mineralised water in a steamer contraption when performing facials


    Even then I still need to de scale it on occasions as I can see through the glass mineral build up on the element

    KK

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Ok,
    we both agree one one thing, I think ;), increasing temperature *and pressure increases the rate of chemical reactions which is why boilers are especially susceptible to damage.

    Ok, now my change of attack :D Lets assume there is no passive layer, in contrast to what I stated earlier, and that the metals (copper, aluminium, brass, chrome) are freely available for reaction with any appropriate species in the water.
    Forgive me if I state the obvious but Im going to assume no chemistry knowledge so that i dont inadvertently leave out any important points.
    All chemistry boils down to an exchange of electrons. The driving force is that there are certain very stable arrangements that the atoms try to achieve, the nobel electron state.

    Opps, wife is home, Ill must go or Ill never be back later :)

    Sorry, ill continue. :)
    First a warning, this is an alert. GEEK STUFF FOLLOWING. If chemistry bored you witless at school or you just hate geeky stuff move to another thread now ;)

    The nobel electronic state is what all atoms try to achieve, some have to give up a electrons to achieve it, others need to gain some. A match made in heaven when they pair up :) Some atoms do this with much more voracity than others and there is actually a table, the electrochemical series. This is a direct measure of the oomph that the element has when it performs it desired electron transfer. It is very important because it allows us to determine what reactions take place. Any element will react with another element lower in the table, forcing it to take the electrons it doesnt want, like a schoolyard bully in reverse ;D (the reaction actually occurs in the reverse direction to what is typed for the dominant element - its a chemists convention thing to put the electrons on the left side ::)). This is not all bad, some elements want to recieve electrons freely (the ones with +ve voltages) , to do this the reaction proceeds in the direction typed. As it involves electron movement there is a voltage that is generated when it does this - the more oomph the higher the voltage. Here it is below with the reaction involved for electron transfer (this is the geeky bit :D).

    Standard Aqueous Electrode Potentials at 25C The Electrochemical Series
    Element, Standard Electrode Reduction potential (Volts), HalfCell Reaction

    Li, -3.05, Li+ + e- = Li
    K, -2.925, K+ + e- = K
    Ca, -2.87, Ca2+ + 2e- = Ca
    Na, -2.714, Na+ + e- = Na
    Mg, -2.37, Mg2+ + 2e- = Mg
    Al, -1.66, Al3+ + 3e- = Al
    Zn, -0.7628, Zn2+ + 2e- = Zn
    Cr, -0.74, Cr3+ + 3e- = Cr
    Fe, -0.44, Fe2+ + 2e- = Fe
    Cd, -0.403, Cd2+ + 2e- = Cd
    Ni, -0.25, Ni2+ + 2e- = Ni
    Sn, -0.14, Sn2+ + 2e- = Sn
    H2, 0.00, 2H+ + 2e- = H2
    Cu, +0.337, Cu2+ + 2e- = Cu
    I2, +0.535, I2 + 2e- = 2I-
    Ag, +0.799, Ag+ + e- = Ag
    Hg, +0.885, Hg2+ + 2e- = Hg
    Br2, +1.08, Br2 + 2e- = 2Br-
    Cl2, +1.36, Cl2 + 2e- = 2Cl-
    Au, +1.50, Au3+ + 3e- = Au
    F2, +2.87, F2 + 2e- = 2F-

    (Remember, weve made the assumption that the metal is not protected by a passive layer and is free to react when possible.) Chrome and aluminium are now in a world of hurt. They are high in the list and will react with anything below them (which is just about everything :o), turning the dissolved metal into solid metal and dissolving itself. Drinking water contains enough iron (from the pipes) that the chrome and aluminium in your espresso machine will dissolve themselves in a fairly short period of time. Of course there are other dissolved metals in water but iron is the most prolific of the detrimental elements by a considerable margin. None of this can occur with DI or RO water because they contain no dissloved elements :)

    Now that Ive made you all worry, you can be assured that your machines are not rotting from the inside out :)

  39. #39
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0B3B2C3E242827490 link=1256465536/37#37 date=1256887965
    Forgive me if I state the obvious but Im going to assume no chemistry knowledge so that i dont inadvertently leave out any important points.
    All chemistry boils down to an exchange of electrons. The driving force is that there are certain very stable arrangements that the atoms try to achieve, the nobel electron state.
    Keep it up. You are now talking in a language even I can understand! And Im enjoying the debate going on here too. :)


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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7F5E555552483B0 link=1256465536/38#38 date=1256888963
    Quote Originally Posted by 0B3B2C3E242827490 link=1256465536/37#37 date=1256887965
    Forgive me if I state the obvious but Im going to assume no chemistry knowledge so that i dont inadvertently leave out any important points.
    All chemistry boils down to an exchange of electrons. The driving force is that there are certain very stable arrangements that the atoms try to achieve, the nobel electron state.
    Keep it up. You are now talking in a language even I can understand! And Im enjoying the debate going on here too. *:)
    Yep and it is due to the charges and what level they like to be at.. *Thus pure *water H2O is hungry and will pull and free radicals and other excess electrons from any thing that has a few spare or not bound...

    What we forget is that we very rarly come in contact with a *water molecule..

    Thus the reason why, *water is called the "universal solvent"; *because it dissolves more substances than any other liquid. This means that wherever water goes, either through the ground or through our bodies, it takes along valuable chemicals, minerals, and nutrients.

    In fact normal water and even some of the purest in nature - Deep in ice burges ( Some beer place has set up in iceland as they can use the nateral water to make supurbe beer... Miss spent childhood - Should have been coffee)

    Problem is that Chemesrty = Maths... * and As I have continued to say 2 + 2 = 5

    oooo *aaaarrrrrrr

    A mate just droped this in my lap.... *Ex Chemist from A QLD brewery...

    He just as a few PHDd / Masters etc and now looking at the Brain and enhancements to the cochlear implant... He is also my fishing mate... But only drinks pablo *:-? *:-? *::) *:P

    From *a well known uni... *http://www.ag.unr.edu/


    There are R/O systems that can treat the entire water supply for
    the home instead of just what is used at one faucet.

    It should be noted that these systems are extremely expensive. For the most part other far more cost-effective systems can be used to im prove water quality for the entire house.

    Also, water treated by a reverse osmosis system that does not have a system to add some dissolved minerals back into the system (a rehardener) is corrosive to copper pipes and brass faucets.

    Operation of a whole house system without a rehardener can result in severe corrosion of copper water lines and may add lead and copper into drinking water.

    Now thats interesting... Good thing there is no Copper / Brass or Solder in any coffee machines...

    Interesting... Same conclusion reached by others and identified in an earler post..

    Now for those beans your sending me... * ;D :D ;)

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6B444D4F58674B444B4D4F474F445E2A0 link=1256465536/39#39 date=1256902972
    Quote Originally Posted by 7F5E555552483B0 link=1256465536/38#38 date=1256888963
    Quote Originally Posted by 0B3B2C3E242827490 link=1256465536/37#37 date=1256887965
    Forgive me if I state the obvious but Im going to assume no chemistry knowledge so that i dont inadvertently leave out any important points.
    All chemistry boils down to an exchange of electrons. The driving force is that there are certain very stable arrangements that the atoms try to achieve, the nobel electron state.
    Keep it up. You are now talking in a language even I can understand! And Im enjoying the debate going on here too. *:)
    Yep and it is due to the charges and what level they like to be at.. *Thus pure *water H2O is hungry and will pull and free radicals and other excess electrons from any thing that has a few spare or not bound...
    Water doesnt wander around dissolving everything it comes into contact with. If a metal dissolves it becomes positivley charged (a cation) so there needs to be a negatively charged ion (anion) formed to take the donated electrons. Water cannot provide this, it is nuetral and will not accept a charge. So if water is totally devoid of dissolved substances it has no capability to dissolve metals.

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Youve convinced me Bm.... :)

    Great information mate [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

    Mal.

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?


    Unless Im mistaken, I havent seen much if anything about what affect all this chemistry has on whats in the cup :(

    My Brita On-Tap has gone away for replacement and my wife and I detect an improvement in the coffee taste using tap water ::)

    I realize the Brita doesnt remove minerals so it does nothing to protect the machine - but it does improve the taste of water but apparently not for coffee making.

    So, my question is why use filtered water for coffee :-/



  44. #44
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E797F78750C0 link=1256465536/42#42 date=1256933293
    Unless Im mistaken, I havent seen much if anything about what affect all this chemistry has on whats in the cup *:(

    My Brita On-Tap has gone away for replacement and my wife and I detect an improvement in the coffee taste using tap water *::)

    I realize the Brita doesnt remove minerals so it does nothing to protect the machine - but it does improve the taste of water but apparently not for coffee making.

    So, my question is why use filtered water for coffee *:-/

    Minerals in water have a large effect on taste. Im assuming the same holds true for coffee as does for beer (an area I have much more experience with than coffee :)). You are after a balance, too much minerals and then water tastes metallic/harsh. Too few and the beverage is dull. In this sense ultra pure water is the extreme of too few. Im not recommending that you use ultrapure water, its just the pedant in me arguing against the assertion that it is bad for machines.

    As an aside, I intend to experience the ultrapure water "flatness" of coffee. Its one thing knowing it but life is much richer if you experience it ;) I have no concerns about running DI water through my sunbeam :)

  45. #45
    Senior Member Rusty's Avatar
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4B7B6C7E646867090 link=1256465536/43#43 date=1256937085
    I have no concerns about running DI water through my sunbeam *
    I too have a Sunbeam which has a built in filter.

    Is there any advantage in my using the Brita as well *:-?

  46. #46
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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    OK, time for me to jump in with a few comments.

    As previously stated when this and similar discussions have occurred terms really must be defined. Despite several comments to this effect here yall have not done this. Hence youre most likely talking about different things when using the same terms.

    For purposes of this discussion Reverse Osmosis (RO) water refers to RO water produced with over-the-counter home RO units.

    Reverse Osmosis (RO) water != Pure water

    Reverse Osmosis water (I suspect the same is true for most Distilled, and De-ionized waters available to home users also.) is not pure water! There-for any discussion of the effects that pure water have are meaningless when discussing RO water!

    Pure water = H2O *[b]With nothing else present in the solution!

    The RO membrane will remove (most) dissolved solids. Among other things it does not remove dissolved gases! Ergo RO water is not pure water! Therefor any discussion of the reactivity of the H2O molecule is only part of the equation of the reactivity of RO water. To claim that RO water is non-corrosive/reactive because the H2O molecule has no free ion(s) is at best an uninformed comment and at worst disingenuous.

    So, with all this said is RO water bad for pipes and boilers made from such things as copper and brass and therefor bad for espresso machines? Yes.


    Java "Definitions matter!" phile

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0B2037203129282D24410 link=1256465536/45#45 date=1256941303
    OK, time for me to jump in with a few comments.

    As previously stated when this and similar discussions have occurred terms really must be defined. Despite several comments to this effect here yall have not done this. Hence youre most likely talking about different things when using the same terms.

    For purposes of this discussion Reverse Osmosis (RO) water refers to RO water produced with over-the-counter home RO units.

    Reverse Osmosis (RO) water != Pure water

    Reverse Osmosis water (I suspect the same is true for most Distilled, and De-ionized waters available to home users also.) is not pure water! There-for any discussion of the effects that pure water have are meaningless when discussing RO water!

    Pure water = H2O *[b]With nothing else present in the solution!

    The RO membrane will remove (most) dissolved solids. Among other things it does not remove dissolved gases! Ergo RO water is not pure water! Therefor any discussion of the reactivity of the H2O molecule is only part of the equation of the reactivity of RO water. To claim that RO water is non-corrosive/reactive because the H2O molecule has no free ion(s) is at best an uninformed comment and at worst disingenuous.

    So, with all this said is RO water bad for pipes and boilers made from such things as copper and brass and therefor bad for espresso machines? Yes.


    Java "Definitions matter!" phile
    Well put Java "with the clear mind" phile.

    1: Water with minerals / irons and other*extras tastes GREAT *:D

    2: Some of the "extras" are not kind to our bodies and or equipment... *:(

    3: There are ways manage the un desirables without compromising TASTE or the EQUIPMENT.

    Any thing else just falls into a Conspiracy theory where no one wins... *:-*

    Now; did man (Armstrong) walk on the moon *:P

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Yes, this thread is getting us nowhere :)

    I have glossed over the dissolved gases (and many other things), I was wondering when it would raise its head. Ill just leave with the comment that you need special treatment to remove gases. Neither distilling, deioinsiation or RO will remove dissolved gases but they are also present untreated water that they have been produced from so they are all on the same foot in this area :)

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Quote Originally Posted by 67484143546B47484741434B434852260 link=1256465536/46#46 date=1256946701
    [

    1: Water with minerals / irons and other*extras tastes GREAT *:D

    2: Some of the "extras" are not kind to our bodies and or equipment... *:(

    3: There are ways manage the un desirables without compromising TASTE or the EQUIPMENT.


    Now; did man (Armstrong) walk on the moon *:P
    True
    True
    True
    and No, everyone knows the US govt made the footage in a Nevada film studio to dupe the world into allowing them to continue arms proliferation for the fight against the cold war ;D ;D ;D

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    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    So from what I have read we are going to agree to disagree about the effect of "pure" water (RO etc) on the internals of a coffee machine but nobody should use it because it is a negative on taste of the resultant coffee, hope I have read it right.

    It is a fantastic discussion I love it when "the accepted wisdom" is challenged as there is much in the world that people accept because everyone says so (ie the world being flat).



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