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Thread: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

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    good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi Guys/Gals...

    First day with my newly naked parta-filter, Just wondering what would cause the following during a shot...

    It looked like it was going pretty well comming thru looking nice and thick and dark looking from about 5-15 seconds then it stopped and started comming from a different place in the filter for about a second there was no stream... any ideas?

    Lots to learn with the naked PF, the shot above what the 4th one in an attempt to get a good shot - i drank it but was just a little bitter... Beans are 1 week old espresso wow ground in EM0480...

    Cheers.

  2. #2
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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Search for extraction problems on google, photos posted here are a good way for someone to attempt to diagnose problems, photos of shots at different invervals, with maybe a timer in the photo, showing how far into the shot you are, and some puck pics too may help, words alone are hard to diagnose....

    Best of luck!

    Cheers
    Warren

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    One of, if not the best one stop shop shot diagnosis references is on Home-Barista.com in the How To section.

    [link]http://www.home-barista.com/naked-extraction.html[/link]

    Shooting and unbalanced streams usually denotes channelling but having the flow stop mid-extraction is very unusual. Cant say Ive ever seen that!


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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Thanks for that link... soo much reading in there! Hopefully my shots improve in the comming days, otherwise Ill try the photo option...


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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D58414B1F1E280 link=1276495114/2#2 date=1276499578
    Home-Barista.com in the How To section.
    So true... But the 4 Ms are the true keys... Item 2 and 3 could be swapped if ya ask me..

    The principle elements of making espresso are captured in four Italian words:

    1: Mano delloperatore (hand of the operator)
    2: Macinadosatore (grinder-doser)
    3: Miscela (coffee blend)
    4: Macchina espresso (espresso machine).

    Each of these elements plays an important role and the strength in one rarely compensates entirely for the weakness in another.

    Some how it is all to often the perception that it is teh machine that comes first..

    Quote Originally Posted by 6B4944445D45280 link=1276495114/0#0 date=1276495114
    It looked like it was going pretty well comming thru looking nice and thick and dark looking from about 5-15 seconds then it stopped and started comming from a different place in the filter for about a second there was no stream... any ideas?
    What machine ?

    You could have choked it fully... Vibe Pump valve letting go... Air pocket / divert / Channelling etc etc


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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 416E6765724D616E6167656D656E74000 link=1276495114/4#4 date=1276512822

    What machine ? *

    You could have choked it fully... Vibe Pump valve letting go... *Air pocket / divert / Channelling etc etc
    Machine is a breville cafe roma - so no adjustments possible :-/

  7. #7
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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 062429293028450 link=1276495114/5#5 date=1276513089
    Quote Originally Posted by 416E6765724D616E6167656D656E74000 link=1276495114/4#4 date=1276512822

    What machine ? *

    You could have choked it fully... Vibe Pump valve letting go... *Air pocket / divert / Channelling etc etc
    Machine is a breville cafe roma - so no adjustments possible *:-/ *
    Oooo *Not sure of the internals and any bypass valves *etc.. But could be that you choking it...

    Some of the vibe pumps do have a OPV built in.. ( Latest Sunbeam 6910 steam pumps etc... *Shushssssssss Some do not come calibrated and thus give poor steam..)

    Thus if ya maxing out; the pause could be just the internal opv dropping pressure...

    Remember.. Do not go off the numbers.. You will only confuse ya self...

    Freash beans / *Right grind / Dose / Tamp and the rest is all a rule of thumb..

    ABOUT / APROX * 25 ml in 25 - 30 sec *may *or may not be OK.. *

    But the trick is to try whats in the cup.. If good... All is good.

    If it chokes *or runs to fast or tastes like crap... Change something..

    Remember Bigger and Harder is not always better...

    If ya get a great cup at *23.4567 Sec and measures 26.546ml *Who is going to notice.... *Its what in the cup that counts..

    Remember Rule number one... If in doubt always go back to rule number one..

    RuleS

    1: Its what in the cup that counts..

    2: 2 + 2 = 5

    3: The 4 Ms

    4: See rule 1

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Thanks AM,

    After my readings last night I need to work on the dose and distribution for sure, I pulled a shot this morning using the Weiss distribution method - stiring with a needle to get rid of clumps. I was also bashing the PF too much so now I am sticking to only 1 light tap with the tamper after tampering.

    Shot was a bit better but still thin and inconsistent, grinder setting was at the coarse end for espresso so I have tightened it 2 clicks for the mid morning shot...

    Buring thru some coffee think i better go order some more!!

    Thanks Again.

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 14363B3B223A570 link=1276495114/7#7 date=1276552894
    1 light tap with the tamper after tampering.
    I wish people would not do that...

    WHY... It does little other than shout to others near by "Hey look at me "..

    You can tap the group on the matt or give it a pat with ya hand etc a few times.. That is all that is needed to settle teh grinds...

    Every group I see at the moment is bashed to bits and I fail to understand why ?

    The last one I sanded back and then got re chromed, because it was such a mess.. And that was for an EM6910...

    Also went to pick up a Tamper from a mate who got it from a café.. They use the edge and the bottom to tap (BASH) the group handle / groups etc...

    The tamp was good for teh bin.. Hate to see what the groups looked like...

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 507F7674635C707F7076747C747F65110 link=1276495114/8#8 date=1276560868
    I wish people would not do that...
    Mornin AM, have to admit Im a tamper tapper and always have been, I find nothing wrong with the practice and see no down side to it.
    Having said that, my Reg Barber tamper has a Delrin insert (see pic) on the top of the handle specifically for this purpose, so, no noise and no damage to the PF.
    Mind you tapping with the actual tamper base seems a little bizarre.

    Works for me. ;)

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Ok... I wont do it *;D

    Only did it because it was mentioned to in the home barista articles I was reading...

    I just pulled the second shot for the day, another improvement on the first - still far from perfect. After tamping though the puck was lower toward the back of the basket than the front, I pulled it anyway to see what would happen the front of the basket flowed more freely and blonded quick - I guess thats to be expected with the lop sided tamp :-/

    Another thousand shots of refinement and maybe Ill be close :-/

    This is the best tasting coffee I have had from the machine so far :)

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 22000D0D140C610 link=1276495114/7#7 date=1276552894
    1 light tap with the tamper after tampering
    I hope that reads differently to what you meant.
    After tamping you dont want to disturb the puck, just pull the shot.
    If you really are tapping after tamping you can be fracturing the puck and introducing channelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by 724E475F4A2B0 link=1276495114/9#9 date=1276564013
    Im a tamper tapper and always have been, I find nothing wrong with the practice and see no down side to it.
    Jon, considering my reply above, please explain in detail when and what you tap.

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Ohh I like the look of that Old JW, especially the box to put the PF in - would help my uneven tampering out! My PF doesnt sit flat on the bench because it still has some knubs on the bottom... Thinking I might take the dremel to them...

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 013D203B313027323A31550 link=1276495114/11#11 date=1276565142
    please explain in detail when and what you tap.
    Oh Oh, Ive just received a please explain. ;D

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Oh dear, time to own up. *I have always been a compulsive tapper. *Logically, tapping must disturb the coffee bed at the sides of the basket. *In my defence Im also compulsive analyst of coffee cookies on the lookout for channeling and other crimes against extraction. *Remember - the cookie never lies.

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1F232A3227460 link=1276495114/9#9 date=1276564013
    Quote Originally Posted by 507F7674635C707F7076747C747F65110 link=1276495114/8#8 date=1276560868
    I wish people would not do that...
    Mornin AM, have to admit Im a tamper tapper and always have been, I find nothing wrong with the practice and see no down side to it.
    Having said that, my Reg Barber tamper has a Delrin insert (see pic) on the top of the handle specifically for this purpose, so, no noise and no damage to the PF.
    Mind you tapping with the actual tamper base seems a little bizarre.

    Works for me. ;)
    Arrr You do it but with a style and the right tools.. Most use teh bottom of teh tamper... Just watch next time...

    Thats my Tamper holder ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

    KK knows... I Have been in envy of one of our US members who turns all his own stuff and has a great collection of Tamps and tamp boxes...

    I would have said it was his when I firsat saw yours..

    Not happy Jan ;)


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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 0A252C2E39062A252A2C2E262E253F4B0 link=1276495114/15#15 date=1276568384
    Most use the bottom of the tamper
    Seriously? thats hard to believe. :o
    Quote Originally Posted by 0A252C2E39062A252A2C2E262E253F4B0 link=1276495114/15#15 date=1276568384
    Thats my Tamper holderRoll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
    No its not its mine. ;)

  18. #18
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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 7A465B404A4B5C49414A2E0 link=1276495114/11#11 date=1276565142
    Jon, considering my reply above, please explain in detail when and what you tap.
    OK, never let it be said that I did not reply to a please explain. ;)
    I dose the PF, then tap it very lightly with top of handle (Delrin insert) North, South, East and West to level the dose, tamp then lock and load. ;)
    Oh, you know if your tapping too hard, you finish up with coffee every where. ::)

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 75575A5A435B360 link=1276495114/12#12 date=1276565275
    would help my uneven tampering out!
    Made it up about 6 years ago specifically for that purpose, works a treat, keeps the PF dead level and I use it to sit my spare PF in when not in use, would be lost without it. :)

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 49757C6471100 link=1276495114/17#17 date=1276577352
    Quote Originally Posted by 7A465B404A4B5C49414A2E0 link=1276495114/11#11 date=1276565142
    Jon, considering my reply above, please explain in detail when and what you tap. *
    OK, never let it be said that I did not reply to a please explain. *;)
    I dose the PF, then tap it very lightly with top of handle (Delrin insert) North, South, East and West to level the dose, tamp then lock and load. ;)
    Oh, you know if your tapping too hard, you finish up with coffee every where. ::)
    Thanks.
    Just confirming you are not tapping after tamping as the OP suggests they are doing.

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D415C474D4C5B4E464D290 link=1276495114/19#19 date=1276579023
    Quote Originally Posted by 49757C6471100 link=1276495114/17#17 date=1276577352
    Quote Originally Posted by 7A465B404A4B5C49414A2E0 link=1276495114/11#11 date=1276565142
    Jon, considering my reply above, please explain in detail when and what you tap. *
    OK, never let it be said that I did not reply to a please explain. *;)
    I dose the PF, then tap it very lightly with top of handle (Delrin insert) North, South, East and West to level the dose, tamp then lock and load. ;)
    Oh, you know if your tapping too hard, you finish up with coffee every where. ::)
    Thanks.
    Just confirming you are not tapping after tamping as the OP suggests they are doing.
    What would the sentence have been if I had been guilty of tapping after tamping? banished from the site, public humiliation, forced to use supermarket beans for a month or something even more heinous, I shudder to think. *:D ;D :o ::)

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5569746F656473666E65010 link=1276495114/19#19 date=1276579023
    Just confirming you are not tapping after tamping as the OP suggests they are doing
    OP has learnt his lesson and is no longer partaking in such crazy behaviour... lesson learned there...

    I have dremeled the bottom of my PF so I can now get it flat on the bench... last shot was another improvement, had 1 squirter toward the end but was a decent shot, just shy of 30ml in 25 seconds - stopped it with blonding not the timer... Removed the puck after a couple of minutes couldnt see obvious signs of channeling but I guess it must have to get the squirts!

    Big improvement in less than 24hrs, thanks to all who have helped its much appreciated :)

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 576B627A6F0E0 link=1276495114/20#20 date=1276580124
    What would the sentence have been if I had been guilty of tapping after tamping? banished from the site, public humiliation, forced to use supermarket beans for a month or something even heinous, I shudder to think.

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4B776A717B7A6D78707B1F0 link=1276495114/22#22 date=1276583810
    Jon. wrote on Today at 13:35:
    What would the sentence have been if I had been guilty of tapping after tamping? banished from the site, public humiliation, forced to use supermarket beans for a month or something even heinous, I shudder to think.
    Nothing like a bit of masochistic public humiliation! (link refers)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8XH...embedded<br />

    I cried, then I laughed, then I cried again. :o

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 241108025657610 link=1276495114/23#23 date=1276585264
    Nothing like a bit of masochistic public humiliation! (link refers)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8XH2RNqnc&feature=player_embedded

    I cried, then I laughed, then I cried again. * *

    Love it... Guess what ya see all teh time... Same move; but different players..


    Now this one is interesting... But love the tap... Not a TAP or a tap tap or a Bang; just a tap!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkkRuTu4EjE

    PS. Watch for the squirt at the end.. But I agree.. I tend to go for 25sec..

  26. #26
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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 43766F653130060 link=1276495114/23#23 date=1276585264
    Quote Originally Posted by 4B776A717B7A6D78707B1F0 link=1276495114/22#22 date=1276583810
    Jon. wrote on Today at 13:35:
    What would the sentence have been if I had been guilty of tapping after tamping? banished from the site, public humiliation, forced to use supermarket beans for a month or something even heinous, I shudder to think. *
    Nothing like a bit of masochistic public humiliation! (link refers)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8XH...embedded<br />

    I cried, then I laughed, then I cried again. * *:o
    Quite a performance, she should have been a blacksmith. :D

  27. #27
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5B747D7F68577B747B7D7F777F746E1A0 link=1276495114/24#24 date=1276586462
    Quote Originally Posted by 241108025657610 link=1276495114/23#23 date=1276585264
    Nothing like a bit of masochistic public humiliation! (link refers)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8XH2RNqnc&feature=player_embedded

    I cried, then I laughed, then I cried again. * *

    Love it... Guess what ya see all teh time... Same move; but different players..


    Now this one is interesting... But love the tap... * Not a TAP or a tap tap or a Bang; just a tap!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkkRuTu4EjE

    PS. Watch for the squirt at the end.. *But I agree.. I tend to go for 25sec..
    I admire people like this, ya gotta take your hat off to anyone who allows themselves to be filmed for an instructional video to do with espresso coffee, everyone has their own technique and opinion as to how things should be done, pretty much a case of damned if you do and damned if ya dont.
    Seriously though, sure there was a spurt at the end but Ive been served much worse looking brews here in Aust. :)

  28. #28
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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Love this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlBtYeeXQb0&feature=related even he cant resist a little tap. :D

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1B272E3623420 link=1276495114/27#27 date=1276593020
    Love this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlBtYeeXQb0&feature=related even he cant resist a little tap. *
    Ha! I too like nothing better than a shot of espresso after a hard day in the bull fighting ring. Ole! :D

    Ok, jokes aside, re:
    "I admire people like this, ya gotta take your hat off..."
    I agree. And I think she was hard done by! Ok, so there were some problems with the shot. BUT!.....she had the guts to get on camera and tought:
    - Empty doser of stale grinds
    - Grind on demand
    - Flush the group pre extraction
    - Start extraction as soon as the handles in the group
    - etc etc

    So her execution may have been a little off but her message was pretty good!

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 16233A306465530 link=1276495114/28#28 date=1276597085
    So her execution may have been a little off but her message was pretty good!
    She was one of teh best I saw and have seen...

    The approach and concept and delivery was great.. While I joked... I liked teh little "tap"... All that is needed... I give a little slap with my hand... But we are different..

    Now, as for the heavy metal boilermaker.... See lots of teh groups and tampers that have suffered teh same treatment..

    So next time ya walk into a coffee shop... Close ya eyes and hear teh ambiance 8-)


    Now how does it go.... ... slap, tap, tap tap or bang, TAP TAP, Tappet TAP TAP.... ;D


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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4D626B697E416D626D6B69616962780C0 link=1276495114/29#29 date=1276597503
    Now how does it go.... ... slap, tap, tap tap or bang, TAP TAP, Tappet TAP TAP.... Grin
    Ahhhh, the penny drops a form of communication between the barista and waiting staff, bit like Morse code. ::)

  32. #32
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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Cant really tell but that looked like a lot more than 60ml.

    More importantly though, she seemed to know why she was doing everything see was explaining EXCEPT why she tapped the side of the Group handle before the second/final tamp.

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    Re: good looking shot then it goes haywire...

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by 645851495C3D0 link=1276495114/20#20 date=1276580124
    What would the sentence have been if I had been guilty of tapping after tamping? banished from the site, public humiliation, forced to use supermarket beans for a month or something even more heinous, I shudder to think. *
    The true sentence is even worse. BAD COFFEE!

    Greg



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