Originally Posted by 313027273C39302D550 link=1277455987/0#0 date=1277455987
About 50 to 60 ml in about 25 to 30 seconds.
Hi all, before anyone says do a search, I did and got 50 000 responses. Lifes too short to go through each one, especially when there are shots to pull. :P
So, sorry for the complete newb type question but how much extraction should I aim for from a double basket on the 6910
30 ml in 30 seconds
60 ml in 60 seconds
60 ml in 30 seconds
At the moment Im getting 60 ml in 57 seconds. If I try and slow it down by grinding finer the fragile and tempremental 6910 has a fit and starts to pulse. The result in the cup is pretty good.
Originally Posted by 313027273C39302D550 link=1277455987/0#0 date=1277455987
About 50 to 60 ml in about 25 to 30 seconds.
You need to be let loose where the big red cats might just catch ya..
30Sec... Is all I will say.. *
Some one else said this: *You should always be shooting for 25ish seconds, regardless of whether you are using a single or a double or a triple basket, whether you are pulling a ristretto or a lungo. It has to do with volume, not time.
But I love this... Numbers...
Tonight - I think I need more red wine and cigarettes. I actually understand this.Originally Posted by 07282123340B27282721232B232832460 link=1277455987/2#2 date=1277456748
Thank you Mr. Management
Well its not all 100% but close enough: if and only if we accept some of the variables as stated at the out set as to be Volume and Mass: however there are a few more...Originally Posted by 6B627162756475626A66070 link=1277455987/3#3 date=1277457216
But we can let them slide for the moment.. *That cig would taste so good....
Then we can add in the refractometor, spectrum analyser and the ph meters and the other half a dozen high tec test equipment and we may just have the definitive God shot in NUMBERS..
Sorry... 2 + 2 = 5 It makes so much more sense *:D AND is KISS
I love the reaction to the "50,000 responses" Ill just add another to make it 50,001. ;D
Originally Posted by 755A53514679555A55535159515A40340 link=1277455987/4#4 date=1277457699
...or just use a lever machine *:)
I wish... Care to donate ;)Originally Posted by 4A435043544554434B47260 link=1277455987/6#6 date=1277458928
Thanks everyone. AM, you are freakin me out man. Ive just come back from getting a massage ( oh poor me) and read the red cats and equations. Now I am numb.
The only reason I ask about the extraction time and volume is to get a straight answer. The staff running the sunbeam school dont know ?? When I asked them they said 30 ml in 30 secs from a single basket. OK, so the fact that we are using the double basket and the single basket should be thrown away, how much and in what time ? 60 ml was the answer - no time frame given.
I would have thought 60 ml in 30 secs would be deemed a gusher. Im on the verge of what I reckon is a gusher getting 60 ml in just under a minute
No way mate.... :POriginally Posted by 636275756E6B627F070 link=1277455987/8#8 date=1277466679
50-60ml in 28-30 seconds should pour like aerated honey and basically ooze from the GH Spout(s) as though it was a viscous, liquid Violet Crumble Bar in motion. It wont gush - Unless, of course, you are using less than high quality, freshly roasted beans.... Then, anything can happen ::)
Some one else said this: You should always be shooting for 25ish seconds, regardless of whether you are using a single or a double or a triple basket, whether you are pulling a ristretto or a lungo. It has to do with volume, not time.Originally Posted by 5B5A4D4D56535A473F0 link=1277455987/8#8 date=1277466679
So as per Mal and many others, aim for 30sec... ( I tend to go for 25 - cause it easer...)
30ml for a single (I dont use one for coffee)
60ml for a double ( I tend to aim for 50 - 55ml split across two cups)
60ml for a double (I tend to aim for 40 -50 ml if into one cup for me)
NOTE: If its looking like going blond and watery - Then I kill the shot... Sip and make teh call ..... Keep or Dump.. I do not measure teh volume and then decide... To me is about what in teh cup not how much..
The time and volume is a guide and dependant upon Beans / Grind / Tamp / other external factors...
So, if Im currently getting 60 ml in 57 seconds, I have to double the flow rate to be in the ball park ? So that means a coarser grind, right ?( which the 6910 would love)
I hope the red cats reference is nothing to do with Julia Gillard. I have enough nightmares .
Thats one thing to try, the other is to adjust your dose a little. But always one at a time, suggest you adjust your grind one step at a time (remembering there is always a little ground coffee still in the grinder).
Ok, changed the grind, same dose, same tamp. Coarser by 1 on the 480. Now getting 60 ml in 28 secs. Not bad. Slight reduction in crema. Is the volume of extractrion measured to the bottom or top of the crema ?
Does the extraction time start from the second the pump is switched or when the shot appears ? Ive read a few conflicting views.
I always grind for about 5 seconds and throw away to get rid of any stale coffe sitting inthe grinder, and I grind for a bit longer and throw away whenever I change grind. My dose is spot on and Im not willing to overdose and under dosing wont achieve anything I guess, so grind and tamp are my variables.
EDIT -: Im using Campos superior beans. I buy a kilo bag every week ( and use it all ). They latest bag was roasted on 22 /6/10 according to their sticker.
1: Beans will still have a strong influence..
I roast = I Know... I do not always believe what I read.... Would like to... BUT!
2: From the moment ya hit the brew switch (pre infusion is a variable - I ignore)
3: No use starting from teh time ya see drips.. That may never happen is ya choke it :-)
4: Depending on beans/grind/pre infusion/ dose/tamp and basket size/shape etc etc about 6 to 8 sec for drips to start to appear.
Hence some might say 20/22 or 24 /25 sec from drips first appearing.. There are many variables.. Do not get caught up in numbers.. It is a slippery path and like some other stuff... Once ya start it is hard to get back on the road..
Get to know what works for your system... Does not mean it wil be teh same for another machine/beans..
Just remember that in making coffee there is no absolute rules! The 50-60 in 25-30 using 14g with a 15kg Tamp is an idea of what produces a good espresso shot and is NOT definitive. Dont be afraid to try some variation but as Moto said above just change one thing at a time. Be led by your taste and what YOU LIKE as much as what you read.Originally Posted by 232235352E2B223F470 link=1277455987/13#13 date=1277507969
Watch going to long on the shot as you can over extract the coffee and this will give you a bitter flavour but if it tastes good and your running 30+ leave it alone ;)
Once again the voice of reason/logic. ;)Originally Posted by 7E51585A4D725E515E585A525A514B3F0 link=1277455987/14#14 date=1277512035
Your absolutely right BF, but why oh why does the mantra have to be constantly repeated, there must be thousands of posts in the archives conveying a similar message.Originally Posted by 2324202F272D38282F26410 link=1277455987/15#15 date=1277514965
I suspect AM is right, some (perhaps a lot) simply dont get it. ;)
I hope you are not inferring that I dont get it OS. I get it alright, whatever works for me. Trying to get some sort of base guide lines to go by seems totally pointless if there the end result is whatever works for you and your machine. Why not just say there are no rules and just keep playing until it works.
Because when one suggests that there may be other ways... Some can not manage chaos theory and start to implode....Originally Posted by 676671716A6F667B030 link=1277455987/18#18 date=1277518374
For me; teh above is close to being the golden rule... But I and this approach, is seen as a bit out there and thus some can not cope..Originally Posted by 676671716A6F667B030 link=1277455987/18#18 date=1277518374
Every thing in context and thus the grey areas are so vast; it is almost any thing goes...
However INTJs have issues with that... Thats why they make great chemists.. It is all about hard facts and no grey.. Where as anatomical and haematology is about the look and feel... It is about perception and sensing....
Thus depending on what sort of a mind set you have ... How it is expressed / explained can have a significant impact on ones ability to grasp it.... Some will always want numbers.. The issue is that the numbers keep changing due to variables that can not always be clearly defined..
While I will and can use numbers and get back to first principles if ever needed... Why bother.. 240V is the RMS of a PTP voltage and toss in some second order maths and you can see and understand how 240V (equivalent dc) is reached.... Does it change any thing... In most cases NO.
For me.. I use my senses and if any one of them suggest NO... Then I bin and start again.. Unless I am desperate.. And then I usually regret it afterwards :D
(there are no rules and just keep playing until it works. ) there ya go, I said it. ;)Originally Posted by 7C7D6A6A71747D60180 link=1277455987/18#18 date=1277518374
Seriously though there are basics that it certainly pays to keep in mind, however getting to know your machine and grinder combination over a period of time along with their quirks is certainly the best teacher.
I think one of the most valid (and oft ignored tips) is to only change 1 variable at a time and keep notes as to what you have done. :)
Making coffee is not about rules calling them guidelines to start with is closer to the truth. It is part science, part educated guess work and part practice and refinement of good technique, not to mention the gear and beans that will get you there in the end. That said experimental ideas are worth a go too and if you like it then that is fine too. You are the person that matters in what you are drinking not being told what to like by someone elses numbers and being told that is the only way to do it.
The sorts of questions you asked initially gets asked more or less weekly (or more often) and unfortunately there is lots of misinformation given out around the net or at "coffee courses" or even spread by word of mouth like the "keep you beans in the fridge" rubbish. Like all good chinese whispers eventually the message finishes up wrong.
Best bet is to have a good trawl around of the postings and older threads (learn to use the search function) take it all in use the internet bulldust filter as required and ask questions when you get stumped or need something clarified. :)
The main grey area that concerns me these days AM is on top of my head. ;DOriginally Posted by 436C6567704F636C6365676F676C76020 link=1277455987/19#19 date=1277519440
Originally Posted by 073B322A3F5E0 link=1277455987/22#22 date=1277519710
I will be kind and say
You got grey hair developing Jon ::)
Thats a sign of maturity [not to be confused with senility]
I am thinning and my daughter even said in FRONT of her mother that see could see *her mums thumb print *;DOriginally Posted by 477B726A7F1E0 link=1277455987/22#22 date=1277519710
I did not go over well with MUM *:-X
OH... derrilex and all the others out there...
Assumptions... Yep Assumptions and they will get you every time..
1: *The guide that many refer to and is even documented in some Italian certification is about a volume that is extracted from a mass of ground beans (size of grinds not fully defined) in a a particular time using a particular basket size (shape and even the number and size of holes - I have seen referenced) and at a set temperature etc etc etc ...
Judges in coffee comps even look and use a timer to gauge the shot time and volume ???
The assumption here is that the equipment is the same and meets specific performances..
A: Is your equipment in full compliance with the requirements -- May be may be not...
There is another Assumption that people are making and that is even mentioned in the Italian documentation... It also has a blood big impact on the volume and time if it is not correct and or consistent..
Derrilex... * Let me know where ya gauge is sitting in relation to ya sweet spot check on the EM6910..
9 bar is the other assumption that many make... However as many of us know only to well... *Many systems are set *above that common reference value.. Be they an Appliance or even prosumer equipment.. *Not un common to have prosumer gear landing in Australia and running at 12 or 12.5 bar..
Ya think that extra pressure might have an influence on the tamp and grind size you r trying so hard to get right on ya home system and why; when you use another machine, it does not work out the way you expected.....
Have spoken about the Sunbeam sweet spot since day one... *But people still dont get it and many still think it has to be up there in the red... It does not, it is about the dose and the tamp to get the right shot.. *
Beans are assumed as being the best there is along with a top grinder.... *;D *
Its well and truly developed mate. :DOriginally Posted by 547079797A7A4054706C72701F0 link=1277455987/23#23 date=1277520121
Assumptions... Yep Assumptions and they will get you every time.. :DOriginally Posted by 08272E2C3B042827282E2C242C273D490 link=1277455987/24#24 date=1277521786
Sweet spot ???? what are you talking about. Should I do a search ?
Nah only gaggin ;D
AM, ss is 11 and shot pull is 1. Slightly different to my first 6910 which was 12 and 1.30
Ya had me going there :-)Originally Posted by 38392E2E353039245C0 link=1277455987/27#27 date=1277524057
Well here is teh kicker...
If ya run a Sunbeam 58mm double floor basket in a machine that has a group head gauge...
And that gauge has been validated as correct... Guess what.. You will see some interesting readings...
We were running a Prosumer machine that was looking like it was at 12 bar.... Put the Sumbeam basket in and presto.. 10.2bar... Yep teh opv did not get to cut in a teh calibrated hole in teh sunbeam double basket kicks of at about 10 bar.. And sprays like crap at 10.2.
NOTE: Assumption is only a clean never been used Sunbeam double floor basket
I then went and did some further testing and even put gregs gauge on two of the Em69xx units I have in teh shed..
In effect.. The SS could be assumed to give a position on teh gauge of equivalent to about 10bar
Thus it could be assumed with some level of confidence, that your running higher than 10.2 bar @ a gauge reading of 1:00
(Ohoooo 9 bar and those magic numbers )
Remember teh EM69xx does not have an OPV as such... Thus, getting teh gauge right is about managing the Tamp / Dose and Beans..
While I never liked going under teh so called SS... I must admit I was always happier at about that reading on teh gauge or just a bit above... I also know that at work.. They tend to be on the SS or just under...
Also tended to go for about 50 - 55ml in about 25sec and found that gave good a good cup for the PNG beans...
As another posted said teh other day..
Much better once they went finer and lowered the dose.. ;)
Ok. So Im now going to try shooting for the sweet spot and see what happens.
Arrr Grasshopper..Originally Posted by 707166667D78716C140 link=1277455987/29#29 date=1277529247
Wax ON.... Wax Off
Nope, cant get near it without going up x 3 on the 480 with a light tamp. May aswell be drinking black tea. Thats what it looks like. So I think Ill throw the rule book on the compost heap and persist with what Ive got. I pretty sure I cant get a better extraction than what Im getting unless a change of bean is required. I cant grind finer or the 6910 chokes/bounces. I cant updose or AM will hunt me down and adopt my machine. Mmmm, might try a different bean, although I am quite happy with campos.
Great to see ya posted back...
Thus is lesson one: Regardless of teh maths and other stuff / rules / Guide lines etc..
Fit for Purpose and go with whats in the cup BUT do it such that you not damaging the machine...
Next CS meet and great... We need to have a few EM69XX units and check teh SS and then do some shot and extraction runs..
PS... Ya wont believe ya eyes as to teh difference good beans make...... But it is not just one factor but the combination of many...
PPS. I am persisting with beans at teh moment as I like whats in teh cup; but they getting on as in >10 days and turn to water after 20 sec no matter what I do.. Grind or tamp or pre-infusion changes..
Guess I will have to turn to my 3 day post roast batch ;)
PPS. Best home project ever... KKTO
AM, I havent read the entire thread, but this jumped out at me. Do I understand correctly that youre getting pours typical of stale coffee after just 10 days post-roast?Originally Posted by 002F2624330C202F2026242C242F35410 link=1277455987/32#32 date=1277545285
YES... And confusing me... *BIG time.... *:o ::) :-? :-[Originally Posted by 69484343445E2D0 link=1277455987/33#33 date=1277546610
But... Beans were given to me (commercial roaster) and the pen marking indicates that they were roasted / packed on day 13 of this month..
But for the last 2 or 3 days they have been behaving like stale beans... * ::) :-? :-/
I can not work it out... *As first I thought - New Grinder... But some other beans (bad batch of mine.. Schsss *dont tell any one) gave a great pour etc.. *Problem is I did not like the Blend / Acidity / etc etc and was keeping it for others *:o
Now this "SO" I was drinking (and liked) sort of went off; just like MM can do at time... *Wait and wait and then BANG a short window of greatness...
Sorry every one OT..
PS. *Have to make an emergent trip to Melbourne for a day or two..
So doing a special roast of the dregs of 4 bags to night - Will be using with a small ceramic hand grinder- So as to make an Indo / Greek style coffee in the Hotel and at work - Monday / Tuesday..
Also have to roast for the Saceo Magic de lux..
NOW DONT try to get Extraction times and Volumes on this baby..
1: Espresso *= 60
2: Normal = 120
3: Long Black = 240
And you should see the size of the puck.... No wonder ya need a bucket of sugar....
Got to come up with a blend that works with this machine and its internal grinder.. AND is cheep *8-)
Extraction starts from pump on.Originally Posted by 49485F5F444148552D0 link=1277455987/13#13 date=1277507969
Volume measure (usually) includes crema.
60 ml in 28 seconds is right in the ballpark. Now stop shot at 20-22 seconds (all else remains the same) for a ristretto and taste that.
I get a bit sus on the beans sometimes. They are meant to be 1-2 days post roast, but sometimes I crack the bag and they look a bit oily. I get them through my local patisery (sp). The spec they get is different ( older) for their commercial machine and my beans are a " special order " tacked onto their weekly order. But its only a little sticker with the date on it, which I guess is probably open to creative ( read getting rid of old stock) application.
Me either - and too many questions/answers that well never know without seeing the whole process.Originally Posted by 725D5456417E525D5254565E565D47330 link=1277455987/34#34 date=1277547621
HINT: Patisseries specialise in cakes. Roasters specialise in coffee. ;)Originally Posted by 575641415A5F564B330 link=1277455987/36#36 date=1277549420
Last time I checked Campos was a roaster. The patissery buys from them and since I know the owner I am able to tack my order on to theirs. Saves me having to drive 45 minutes to get my beans every week. Good deal I reckon. Ive only had 2 or 3 questionable bags out of 15 so Im not doing too badly. Seems every shop in Bris has a coffee machine these days. Even seen a few in gourmet butchers
i have had the pleasure of watching Brother Baba Budan in Melbourne make my double espresso for many months now - several times per week. It looks to me like 50ml (max!!) in about 25-30 seconds - from the time they flick the go-switch on their machine. Less is more. I find 60ml for a double shot is too long for my taste. I do the same at home, 50ml in about 30 seconds for a double shot (from the time I flick the pour button on my silvia).