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Thread: Fair trade greens?

  1. #1
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    Fair trade greens?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Just wondering if there will be any fair trade grrens coming to beanbay anytime soon? The Bolivia Caranavi Organic Fair trade was a great bean.

  2. #2
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    The Bolivia Caranavi Organic Fairtrade was a great bean but not because it was Fairtrade. We had to scrounge through a lot of bad coffee to find that one!

    If we find great coffee we source and sell it regardless of its certification (RFA, Fairtrade, Organic, Smithsonian, Pigmy friendly) and in fact often we will sell it without mentioning the certification as I dont want it to be a sales tactic. (except for Pigmy coffee... I would tell the world about that one)

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    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    I remember the last batch of Pigmy coffee.

    You could only secure a small lot.
    It was a little bitter.
    Best suited to a short black.
    Tiny defects in the beans.


    Ill stop now.

  4. #4
    Coffee+carbon=heaven Mono's Avatar
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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    Quote Originally Posted by 595E4B5D5046600E0606063F0 link=1281443144/2#2 date=1281451057
    Ill stop now.
    Yes please ;D ;D

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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    Tried to look on the net for fair trade greens in Aus but they are darn hard to find. Maybe Im not looking in the right place. Anyone know where I might be able to source decent Fair Trade greens? Melbourne preferred but willing to get them interstate if theyre not available in Melb.

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    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    Quote Originally Posted by 48676D70090 link=1281443144/1#1 date=1281448462
    The Bolivia Caranavi Organic Fairtrade was a great bean but not because it was Fairtrade.
    Why do they have to be Fairtrade?
    Buy from Coffee Snobs and some of the price goes to Faircrack.

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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    Absolutely! and Faircrack is transparent too, unlike certified coffees, you actually get to see that your money is making a difference where it counts.

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    FAIRTRADE coffee discussion.... Again!

    Quote Originally Posted by 705B496A517B4D4E4C5B4D4D513E0 link=1281443144/4#4 date=1281528568
    Tried to look on the net for fair trade greens in Aus but they are darn hard to find. Maybe Im not looking in the right place. Anyone know where I might be able to source decent Fair Trade greens? Melbourne preferred but willing to get them interstate if theyre not available in Melb.
    Again, why Fair Trade? Are you feeling guilty or something? ;D
    Or is there a need?

    PMed you.

  9. #9
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    Re: FAIRTRADE coffee discussion.... Again!

    I don’t know about Melbourne sources. I have bought some fairtrade East Timor and Salawesi (Indonesia) greens from Di Bartoli here in Sunny Sydney.

    See them amongst the Site Sponsors in the left column.

    They are both good coffees.

    I agree with others that faircrack is possibly of greater benefit to some coffee growers than fairtrade. *

    I know people who buy roasted fairtrade and feel good about it, possibly unaware that most of what they pay goes to the importer, roaster and our government as GST.

    There is no GST on greens.

    I am aware of cooperatives marketing East Timor and Ethiopian Yirgacheffe coffee in a way claimed to give a fair return to the growers.

    I am looking forward to the next BeenBay.

    Barry

  10. #10
    A_M
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    Re: FAIRTRADE coffee discussion.... Again!

    Quote Originally Posted by 406B795A614B7D7E7C6B7D7D610E0 link=1281443144/4#4 date=1281528568
    Tried to look on the net for fair trade greens in Aus but they are darn hard to find. Maybe Im not looking in the right place. Anyone know where I might be able to source decent Fair Trade greens? Melbourne preferred but willing to get them interstate if theyre not available in Melb.

    AND

    Quote Originally Posted by 6C6F7C7C6B620E0 link=1281443144/6#6 date=1281531539
    Absolutely! and Faircrack is transparent too, unlike certified coffees, you actually get to see that your money is making a difference where it counts.
    YEP..

    Total raised so far: $42,618.70
    Total donated: $13,627.21


    Current FairCrack balance: $28,991.49



    July 2010
    This donation has purchased two more pulpers for the Southern Kilimanjaro villages and some raised drying beds. We wish the farmers well in their new coffee processing journey
    Click here for more details
    $5,631.34

    May 2009
    Following on from the initial success of the first project on the southern Kilimanjaro slopes we have replicated the project so that two new mountain villages will benefit from the installation of two new central pulperies.

    $4,759.20
    September 2008
    Purchase two coffee pulpers for communal use by the small holder farmers on the southern slopes of Kilimanjaro. We hope this will improve their coffee quality and their market price for many years to come.

    $3,236.67
    May 2007
    The birth of FairCrack happened in the following thread. In future we will show the chosen projects below.

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    Re: FAIRTRADE coffee discussion.... Again!

    FAIRTRADE beans require appropriate certification with FLANZ (the Australian/NZ FT Licensing body).

    Once certified, you receive a FLO ID from FLANZ to allow you to purchase them from a broker and as part of retaining your certification, you need to provide quarter stock inwards and outwards reporting, with fees applied to product that you sell in that reporting period (this is about to change in coming months).

    This of course applies to roasters and retailers.

    Availability of FAIRTRADE green in Australia is somewhat constrained and beans you may get today may not be available in 1-3 months time.

    As for those that believe roasters are profiting from FT sales - dont make that mistake by jumping to conclusions without having experienced the the business fundamentals of running a FT offer for customers.

    This is not a negative bias against FT, but simply an attempt to make people aware that quite a few roasters choose not to participate in FT for this very reason.


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    Re: FAIRTRADE coffee discussion.... Again!

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D7D7D2C1E0 link=1281443144/11#11 date=1281652308
    FAIRTRADE beans require appropriate certification with FLANZ (the Australian/NZ FT Licensing body).

    Once certified, you receive a FLO ID from FLANZ to allow you to purchase them from a broker and as part of retaining your certification, you need to provide quarter stock inwards and outwards reporting, with fees applied to product that you sell in that reporting period (this is about to change in coming months).

    This of course applies to roasters and retailers.

    Availability of FAIRTRADE green in Australia is somewhat constrained and beans you may get today may not be available in 1-3 months time.

    As for those that believe roasters are profiting from FT sales - dont make that mistake by jumping to conclusions without having experienced the the business fundamentals of running a FT offer for customers.

    This is not a negative bias against FT, but simply an attempt to make people aware that quite a few roasters choose not to participate in FT for this very reason.
    Another good and accurate post by ccc2 :)

    It doesnt even stop there.
    Fair trade also require certain wording and the term fair trade has to be written as "FAIRTRADE".
    For example on the back of a coffee bag the following has to be written:
    "The FAIRTRADE Label on this product is your independent guarantee that this XXXXXXXXX coffee meets international Fairtrade standards.
    FLO I.D. XXXXXX"

    The front artwork label on the bag also has to be approved by FLANZ if you are using the fair trade label.

    As ccc2 said the additional paperwork, auditing, differing labels etc, makes delivering a fairtrade product to the public more difficult.

    Wether you take this as something against FT or as an understanding that FT use this to keep everything above board/to a standard and to distribute the cost/work along the supply chain to do this, is up to you.

    [opinion]
    The way the FT system is setup is prohibitive to high quality coffee. This is why I suspect it is looks upon so poorly here. Reports and studies have shown that FT does have an effect on the ground. One could/would argue that high quality coffee can also return a high price to the farmer/producer and that less gets lost in administration and marketing costs.
    Given that I think that if you dont care about quality or cannot taste the difference FT has a good case and you at least think about buying it.
    FT does have its place.
    [/opinion]

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    Re: FAIRTRADE coffee discussion.... Again!

    You could try mod edit non sponsor link removed I have had contact and they are looking to step up their green bean sales, so send them an email.

    My opinion on FairTrade is this:
    We have to remember who buys most of the worlds green beans, cause it isnt coffee snobs members. Its massive corporations who are trying to buy their products at rock bottom prices to maximise profits. Its companies who will bully farmers and growers to get what they want, regardless of how it affects the farmer. Fairtrade is an effort to regulate bean prices so that farmers arent getting ripped. I agree that roasters and cafe owners wanting premium beans probably wont buy through the fairtrade market, because they want beans sourced direct that are the best. And like anything, you have to pay good money to get the best, so rather than find the cheapest beans they can buy for next to nothing, theyre trying to buy the best, and are willing to pay what theyre worth.
    I still think Fairtrade is great, because it is doing SOMETHING for the farmers. Im sure it isnt perfect, but what system is?

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    TC
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    Re: FAIRTRADE coffee discussion.... Again!

    Quote Originally Posted by 6B7A69727160696361667B080 link=1281443144/13#13 date=1281695574
    I still think Fairtrade is great, because it is doing SOMETHING for the farmers. Im sure it isnt perfect, but what system is?
    FairCrack is pretty much perfect as the funds go where they are needed, not on lunches, company cars and [s]holidays[/s] fact finding missions for fat cats.

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    Re: FAIRTRADE coffee discussion.... Again!

    Quote Originally Posted by 4D5C4F5457464F4547405D2E0 link=1281443144/13#13 date=1281695574
    Fairtrade is an effort to regulate bean prices
    WRONG fairtrade is a way to regulate a price structure to benifit the international trade and tell farmers what to do at their cost.it is pure and simply a marketing entity maskarading as a psuedo charity/welfare group to make us more wealthy coffee drinkers feel better.

    It is a load of corporate B$llstuff

    Good beans are good beans regardless of FT, RA or IMA wally certified

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    Re: FAIRTRADE coffee discussion.... Again!

    I disagree with your post, beanflying. As I said in my previous post, fairtrade wasnt created because of small roasters who are willing to pay a good price for coffee, and I think thats probably most of the coffee snobs users. were already in a good mindset about coffee. Im not gonna try to change your mind about fairtrade though, but really, if you need a corporation to complain about, surely there are others you could pick.
    I think the whole crapping on fairtrade thing is a blatant waste of time and energy.

  17. #17
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: FAIRTRADE coffee discussion.... Again!

    [split] [link=http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1281596071/0#0][splithere][/link][splithere_end]

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    Fairtrade doesnt pay squat to the actual farmers. They buy the beans from a middleman. Not the farmers! That middleman can pass some of the higher price they received for the beans on to the farmers or not at their discretion. Nothing in the Fairtrade system requires the middleman, who is the one actually Fairtrade certified (A certification they have to pay for!), to pass that higher price along to the farmer.

    Additionally there is nothing in the Fairtrade system to encourage quality. Quite the opposite in fact. The same price per pound is paid no matter the quality so it is to the advantage of the supplier to produce as many beans as possible while putting as little money into the process as they can so as to maximize profits.

    If a farmer produced high quality beans they could get paid far more for their crop than what Fairtrade beans are bought for.

    Fairtrade is a wonderful marketing ploy by some savvy businessmen, but unfortunately thats pretty much all it is. A marketing technique to put more money into their pockets, not the farmers.

    Such is my opinion and if you dig into the Fairtrade system and take a good look at its organization instead of listening to their marketingspeak I think youll come to the same conclusions.


    Java "Stepping off the Soap Box" phile

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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    Quote Originally Posted by 59485B4043525B515354493A0 link=1281568761/16#16 date=1281763360
    fairtrade thing is a blatant waste of time and energy
    Also WRONG all that generally gets to the media is how wonderful FT or RA is and the "Truth" is somewhat different. Please take the time to read the annual reports and understand where the money goes and what it is used for. It is corporate control and marketing spin masquerading as a charitable feel good organisation/s. Any price premium paid for these beans is swallowed up by the machine and little ever gets on the ground is the source countries and communities who need it!

    If you dont talk about the elephant in the room it is invisible.

  20. #20
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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    When a coffee farmer earns more than a Fairtrade employee then I might change my tune.

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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    Im not against the concept but doesnt fair trade charge a commission from the farmers? I have always wondered how they afford such a big advertising budget…

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    Quote Originally Posted by 353E3F3A3F353E3F3A32560 link=1281568761/20#20 date=1282114119
    I have always wondered how they afford such a big advertising budget…
    Roasters selling Fairtrade coffee pay an annual licensing fee along with a per kilo fee. In theory the licensing fee component is what pays for the "overheads" like advertising, plush offices in major cities around the world and expensive retail space in shopping centres.

    Quote Originally Posted by 353E3F3A3F353E3F3A32560 link=1281568761/20#20 date=1282114119
    but doesnt fair trade charge a commission from the farmers?
    It was mentioned above but worth noting again, Fairtrade will only certify a co-op, not an individual farmer.

    So to sell as Fairtrade, the small holder farmer that was producing great coffee will have to toss his beans in with others from the region regardless of the overall quality.

    ...and to answer your question, YES, Co-ops have to pay for Fairtrade certification and inspections every year.

    Organic coffee has a similar story, the small holder farmer could never afford the organic certification and inspections even though they produce using natural organic farming techniques.

    Its a real mess.

    To make matters worse, some origins dont allow direct relationships between buyer and farmer as the suspicious govt think they will missout on taxes.

    I think the solution to most of the problems might be (honest?) government brokered on-line auctions of small farmer lots that will then command real market price. This would encourage the good growers to get paid more for their effort and the bad ones can still toss their beans into a certified bag for a minimum price. The govt can skim their taxes and the farmer would get paid better.

    A few countries currently have an auction system but stories of dodgy middlemen are rife. Cup of Excellence works well but it is far removed from the container loads of beans needed by the big boys. Add to the problems freighting and logistics as well as customs clearances etc and it all seems too hard.

    ...but as hard as it is we do owe our neighbour better than they currently get for the level of effort then spend on a great product.

    I love what CoffeeSnobs members have done with FairCrack so far and hope in time others follow our lead to create a much FairerTrade.

    (punchline is: I really shouldnt read threads with titles like this one after midnight)

  23. #23
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7F505A473E0 link=1281568761/21#21 date=1282146740
    some origins dont allow direct relationships between buyer and farmer as the suspicious govt think they will miss out on taxes. .....dodgy middlemen
    We and the Tanzanian farmers are fortunate in that we have honest and benevolent people like yourself and Bente. Is the Tanzanian govt supportive of First Crack? They must be, from the story behind the first pulper purchase.

    I love what CoffeeSnobs members have done with FairCrack so far and hope in time others follow our lead to create a much FairerTrade.
    If it became more widespread, would it be best served as being run by by small operations such as CS or would it become a trademark, centrally operated like Fair Trade.

    I see problems with either method as less scrupulous types can be tempted when given access to a considerable pool of money. A larger, more centralised operation may require a full-time administrator who would require a wage unless they are prepared to do it voluntarily and are already self-sufficient.

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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    I have bought some great quality East Timor Fairtrade greens from Di Bartoli, a CS Site Sponsor.

    While all Fairtrade coffee is bought from growers by cooperatives, not all coffee from the cooperatives is sold as Fairtrade.

    A lot of Ethiopian Yirgacheffe is handled by a cooperative.


    while I agree that Faircrack is great, it is far from the scale of Fairtrade.

    I don’t expect that all fairtrade is run as well as in East Timor or Ethiopia.

    I buy coffee on recommended quality, not on if it is Fairtrade or not.

    Only two of my ten green coffees are Fairtrade while six are from BeanBay.
    *
    The following is quoted from Di Bartoli website, http://www.dibartoli.com.au

    “Timore - Leste (East Timor) Maubisse Certified Fairtrade Organic Coffee.

    Local farms in the central mountains of Timor-Leste, southeast Asias poorest country, are part of Cooperativa Cafe Timor (CCT), the largest single-source producer of organically certified coffee in the world. CCT began buying, processing, and marketing certified organic coffee in Timor-Leste in 1994, when it started with 800 farm families.

    By helping farmers focus on quality and consistency, CCT commands a high price on the world specialty coffee market for its products. When farmers sell their ripe coffee fruit to CCT, they receive a premium price of between 40% and 75% more than they would if selling their coffee to other producers in Timor-Leste. They also save up to two weeks work needed to process coffee fruit into dried coffee beans, giving them time to harvest more of their crop.

    CCT now has 20,000 farm family members and employs more than 3,000 Timorese in post-harvest work each year. CCTS activities include primary healthcare, agricultural extension services, vanilla crop and farmer-based cattle fattening projects to diversify exports, a tree nursery to provide replacement shade tree seedlings to coffee farmers, and a training center for cooperatives and small businesses.”

    Barry

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    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    Hi all

    I was browsing last night the Social Science Research Network (SSRN at http://www.ssrn.com). This site is "devoted to the rapid worldwide dissemination of social science research". Wondering if they has anything articles on coffee I searched for just coffee and got lots of results, particularly to do with the economic and social analysis of the Fair Trade system.

    Naturally I always like to read any research that backs up my own pre-conceived ideas about coffee and "Fair Trade" based on internet searches :-)

    Anyhow in addition to reading the Fair Trade Annual Reports (I have read one) and internet articles one really does need to read a wide range of material from difference sources to come to an informed decision. *I think this article is very good.

    Does Fair Trade Coffee Help the Poor?, Evidence from Costa Rica and Guatemala
    June 2007
    Colleen E. H. Berndt, Assistant Professor, San Jose State University
    Electronic copy available at: http://ssrn.com/abstract=1359159

    COLLEEN E. H. BERNDT is an assistant professor at San Jose State University and an affiliated scholar with the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. She holds a PhD in Economics from George Mason University, as well as an MBA in Finance from Notre Dame de Namur University. Dr. Berndt’s current research interests include economic development, especially as related to coffee cultivation and consumption, and the economics of religion.

    Mike

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    Re: Fair trade greens?

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Excellent read and the conclusions reached spell out some of the thoughts expressed above here. Faircrack and direct trade for me I think, RA and FT pick up your game :)



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