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Thread: volumetric vs semi-manual

  1. #1
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    Re: Izzo Alex Duetto II discussion thread

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Thanks for that - I appreciated it very much. *If you dont mind can I pick your brains a bit more...

    What do you think of volumetric vs semi-manual? *Is volumetric worth anything, or is a semi-manual a better option (i.e. what you personally prefer). * Is rotary over vibe pump just a noise issue, or does it have other benefits?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4B646D6F78476B646B6D6F676F647E0A0 link=1260516382/114#114 date=1296131363
    The issue of Blueleds and PIDS and all the other bling does little to an old man... Functionality and repeatability is what is important.
    I thought youd say that, which is why I want your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4B646D6F78476B646B6D6F676F647E0A0 link=1260516382/114#114 date=1296131363
    3: A change is always good *
    Too true!!!

    Thanks again...

  2. #2
    A_M
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    volumetric vs semi-manual

    Quote Originally Posted by 626865666665686B646C6B090 link=1260516382/115#115 date=1296137568
    What do you think of volumetric vs semi-manual? *Is volumetric worth anything, or is a semi-manual a better option (i.e. what you personally prefer). * Is rotary over vibe pump just a noise issue, or does it have other benefits?
    This is all subject to Personal Preference / Perceptions and Peer Pressure *;D :D


    It comes back to WHAT functionality you Want VS Need *etc...

    I went from a EM6910 and thus Volumetric, was what the wife and kids were use to... *The BCF followed and she was an Automatica (Volumetric ) and the family liked it that way. *The DCM is the same..

    However, I use as a Semi Automatic and use the button to start and STOP the run. *Same as others. Be it, that the operation is done via a rocker switch or a short bit of SS that is used to press an manual switch (leva ??? ) - it still a manual switch. *They also *have two types of pumps... Vib or Rotary.

    Thus compared to a TRUE lever where the time / volume etc is down to the MANUAL pull of a lever and the skill of the operator. Most of the units are Semi-Auto in my view.

    The Automatic are the ones that have volumetric options - Most Commercials do as it allows the operator to do other things and thus are more productive.

    The Super Autos usually have a Grinder built in and the group is not accessible and the Grind / Dose and Shot is fully managed by the machine.

    Thus they all have a functionality of sorts BUT what do you want / need ?

    Figure out what you need and look to see what machine will deliver you the goods. *Beware of UP Selling but also be aware that the GRINDER is of SIGNIFICANT importance. *All the little extras will help... PID, Two Gauges, SS Leva, Twin Boilers, Large waste tray, hight between the Group and waste tray (cups or mugs) etc etc

    As to pumps... Vibs usualy have a bit of noise but can be managed... Rotary usual means plumbed but may not... Quite when running and some say the ability to provide a more stable pressure gradent *etc... *As for me it would be the noise as my taste buds could not tell between twin unit with different pumps as to what ends up in the cup...... *( But remember... Ya still have to grind beans and that is the NOISINESS of all.) *

    Then look at who can provide the best service and support.... *You might be surprised at what you settle for...

    OH and remember UPGRADEitus will hit at some stage.






  3. #3
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    Re: volumetric vs semi-manual

    Gday M,

    looks like the original topic has been deleted????????????/\//\/

    In any case replying to the questions in the quoted section:

    a) yes personal preference

    b) volumetirc gives precise control over the dose of liquid, and for those that always seem to argue about that one, remember the volumetric programmed dose can always be cut short / stop the flow *by simply flicking the touch button again which can be done at any time (just like if you were using a semi-automatic and had to flick the toggle to stop the flow anyway....)

    For these reasons and for my money in a commercial situation, you would be mad not to go with a volumetric.....you want consistency dont you !!!!!! Well this simply adds consistency and the programme can be changed at any time to suit the conditions of the day eg you decide the volume should be a little shorter today, and you reprogramme...on most machines it takes less than 5 seconds to enter programming mode to re-programme a touch button to stop the volumetric dose at a different volume.

    That said hiowever, there is no "better option" of one type over the other because as already stated, it still comes down to personal preference.

    In home use the rotary VS vibe pump thing is nothing more than a noise and vibration issue....and therefore is personal preference from that point of view. There is no issue with volume of delivery in home use. Also, think of whether the noise or vibration issue REALLY is an issue or not. Again the amount of time a pump runs in home use is also quite minimal. So it comes down to personal preference yet again.

    In a commercial sitraution where you are running large capacity machines that require more volume of water delivered, the vibe pump cant deliver the same volumes as a rotary....there is no issue, you simply cant do commercial volume with a vibe pump.

    Hope that helps.

    Regardz,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.

  4. #4
    A_M
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    Re: volumetric vs semi-manual

    Quote Originally Posted by 241007110A3D210D04040707620 link=1296139662/1#1 date=1296169468
    looks like the original topic has been deleted????????????/\//\/
    That was me ;D

    The question was in another topic and not really related, http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1260516382/115#115

    So in the effort to get things on track I replied in a new topic....

    Am happy to see we are on the same page as I always enjoy your posts and the attention to detail.


    I trust that kaloola now has his answers.

    Mark

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    Re: volumetric vs semi-manual

    Quote Originally Posted by 537C7577605F737C7375777F777C66120 link=1296139662/2#2 date=1296170938
    I trust thatkaloola now has his answers.
    Yes, and thanks both of you for your answers. *I thought Id add a bit of context (or waffle, perhaps), just to finish off the thread:

    With the volumetric issue, I also have a Sunbeam 6910 (AM may remember), and while I think it looks like a small thing to lose (if you go with a Duetto, Rocket etc), I actually find the volumetric quite handy in the morning because you can just walk away from the machine. *It allows you to do several things at once. *I was interested that AM has it and doesnt use it.

    Id read that some people think you get a better taste in the cup with a non-volumetric semi-automatic. *This affects which machine you buy, so I wanted to clear this up.

    One thing I read was that you cant have volumetric and a "full" E-61 group (Temes list of E-61s), as the method of pre-infusion for the latter requires a manual switch. *Pre-infusion in volumetric machines like the Vivaldi is done differently, and the E-61 on the Valentina and the like is not a complete E-61.

    I wanted to know if you thought there was any discernable taste difference and its clear that you dont. *Since you (AM) are using the manual switch on a volumetric semi-automatic, then it shows that its not a machine issue. *There is no reason to prefer a non-volumetric machine over a volumetric one as far as taste is concerned. *Price is another issue.

    As a side note on the "true" manual lever, I have a work colleague who owns several and swears by them. *Because of this, while the Sunbeam was being repaired last time, I bought an Arrarex Caravel, which produces some really great shots if I do everything right. *"Clarity" is a word someone else used to describe what it achieves. *I tend to use the Sunbeam more, however, because its just easier (less fiddly), the Caravel shots are tiny, and I have to steam milk for my partner anyway. *

    As for the vibe/rotary pump, I dont even mind the noise/vibration of the Sunbeam thermoblock, which I understand is louder than even a vibe pump. *Since there isnt any other reason for it, I dont think Id shell out the extra dollars for a rotary. *Again, it was really helpful to have this clarified, so thanks again.

  6. #6
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    Re: volumetric vs semi-manual

    Quote Originally Posted by 222825262625282B242C2B490 link=1296139662/4#4 date=1296178723
    Quote Originally Posted by 537C7577605F737C7375777F777C66120 link=1296139662/2#2 date=1296170938
    I trust thatkaloola now has his answers.
    Yes, and thanks both of you for your answers....
    ......Id read that some people think you get a better taste in the cup with a non-volumetric semi-automatic. *This affects which machine you buy, so I wanted to clear this up.

    One thing I read was that you cant have volumetric and a "full" E-61 group (Temes list of E-61s), as the method of pre-infusion for the latter requires a manual switch. *Pre-infusion in volumetric machines like the Vivaldi is done differently, and the E-61 on the Valentina and the like is not a complete E-61........
    .....As for the vibe/rotary pump, I dont even mind the noise/vibration of the Sunbeam thermoblock, which I understand is louder than even a vibe pump. *Since there isnt any other reason for it, I dont think Id shell out the extra dollars for a rotary. *Again, it was really helpful to have this clarified, so thanks again.
    a) I appreciate the *thank you*.....very often (most often?) we actually never hear back from the recipients of our advice and time spent *:)

    b) "some people say....better taste in the cup with a non-volumetric semi-automatic."

    This is unbelievably illogical (not you, them). Certainly if you are comparing a volumetric of one brand model machine to some other brand model non volumetric machine.....but within the same brand model (ie an identical design/build machine) where the ONLY EFFECTIVE DIFFERENCE is a volumetric "auto stop" mechanism.....???????????

    c) ",....cant have volumetric and a "full" E-61 group (Temes list of E-61s), as the method of pre-infusion for the latter requires a manual switch. *Pre-infusion in volumetric machines like the Vivaldi is done differently, and the E-61 on the Valentina and the like is not a complete E-61........

    Say what???????? The "generic" modern electric E61 group has a pre infusion piston that can clearly be seen hanging off the RHS of the group (where the lever would have been fitted on a manual original type E61 group). Also, the electronics on volumetric machines allow for an "electric" pre infusion function that can be activated to function all the time, or not. *The manual pre infusion piston works all the time and you can double up by also activating the electric pre infusion via the touch pad (I have done this at times just to see if I thought it made any difference), so you can in fact have both types of pre infusion working together for each pour if you want.

    Whether both these types of pre infusion are the same or not to the type of pre infusion used in the original lever operated E61, or whether someone thinks they are or are not a "true" preinfusion or that a group is definitive or not or "complete" or not is what? What does it mean? Is it relevant to anything? Theyre all pre infusions even if they are not identical in the way they are designed.

    No one disputes a modern electric E61 group is not the same as an original manual E61 group, and there are different derivatives in the different supplies of these groups. *I put it to the forum the only thing that counts is whether a particular brand model machine is capable of producing great coffee or not, reliably and repeatably, over a reasonable period of time, in the circumstance it is designed and built to operate in. That is, a model is either a successful coffee machine or not in toto and that is not governed by the specifications of the individual components or as defined by the apparent academic attributes of those components.

    d) You should compare a vibe pump machine to a reasonably *equivalent rotary pump machine just to see and hear and feel the difference, to see if the extra dosh is worth it for you or not. It is an individual preference of personal opinion *;)

    I realise you are only advising the list what you have read or understood from what you have read. I simply challenge the information that others write up for you to read, and my approach is simply to try and keep it as "real" as possible.

    Regardz,
    Attilio

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    Re: volumetric vs semi-manual

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by 5A6E796F74435F737A7A79791C0 link=1296139662/5#5 date=1296206063
    I realise you are only advising the list what you have read or understood from what you have read. I simply challenge the information that others write up for you to read,
    Thats what I like and appreciate - its great to be able to get replies from someone who knows enough to be able to challenge what others write, or to clarify what Ive misunderstood.

    I find there are a lot of unverified coffee myths circulating about, as well as disagreements among even the more experienced coffee hands. *While I am all for trying things for oneself, it is not possible to try everything, and one needs to take advice. *It would be good to have something like "myth busters" for coffee. *Someone might want to run with that idea - take a well-known coffee idea and design a test which will prove or break it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A6E796F74435F737A7A79791C0 link=1296139662/5#5 date=1296206063
    That is, a model is either a successful coffee machine or not in toto and that is not governed by the specifications of the individual components or as defined by the apparent academic attributes of those components.
    I like this approach. *Who cares if a machine is a real E61 indeed?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A6E796F74435F737A7A79791C0 link=1296139662/5#5 date=1296206063
    a) I appreciate the *thank you*.....very often (most often?) we actually never hear back from the recipients of our advice and time spent
    Well, thank you again for another well thought out and well-written post. *I really do appreciate it.



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