Results 1 to 37 of 37

Thread: Coffee age and freshness

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sydney North Shore
    Posts
    1,326

    Coffee age and freshness

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by 363B302D363B3526303D3A33362139540 link=1163710607/1252#1252 date=1303008069
    best Ive ever had
    Kyle,

    Welcome to CoffeSnobs.

    Lovely Eric Has shown you that your equipment is capable of making amazing coffee. All it takes is good fresh coffee, reading of the posts here and practice and you will do the same.

    Dont use stale supermarket coffee. I saw some in Woolies yesterday with "best used before December 2012". When was it roasted? Who knows.

    Green unroasted beans are at their best for 3 years, roasted beans 3 weeks and ground coffee 3 minutes.

    Buy some freshly roasted beans from a local roaster, a Site Sponsor or from Andy here at BeanBay or roast your own like many of us here do.

    Use the quick search up the top or ask for help.


    Barry


  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,339

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D5E4D4D46607B4A515C5E513F0 link=1163710607/1253#1253 date=1303011345
    Green unroasted beans are at their best for 3 years, roasted beans 3 weeks and ground coffee 3 minutes
    I dont mean to pick on you Barry, but Ive seen this quote so many times and it really is just a load of rubbish.

  3. #3
    Probably drunk on coffee bodyboardingbum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    South Perth
    Posts
    206

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Thanks for the warm welcome Barry! My partner and i are moving into our new unit in South Perth this week so once were all settled in and ive got the milk texturing working better im going to start trying the 5 seeds beens, nice and freshly roasted :)

    Until then, ive got some beans that Eric gave me with the machine which tasted fantastic when he made me a coffee :) No idea what they are though, ill send him an email to find out!

  4. #4
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    10,496

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 5046434352505C55555656330 link=1163710607/1254#1254 date=1303012122
    I dont mean to pick on you Barry, but Ive seen this quote so many times and it really is just a load of rubbish.
    How about elaborating then Dennis.

    As far as Im concerned its a simplistic guide for the beginners just like 30mls in 30 seconds.

    Theres always devil in the detail but if you think its so far from the truth we should not be saying it to beginners, then please enlighten us all.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sydney North Shore
    Posts
    1,326

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Sorry Dennis. The three threes may be a bit of a clichť but it is a simple guide to freshness.

    I have been trying to encourage people to go for fresh beans from coffee specialists like you rather than using dubious supermarket beans of unknown ages.

    I know that fresh beans are not everything for making good coffee but it is an important start.

    Looking forward to the Breville launch one month from today.

    Barry

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,339

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Thanks for not taking it personally Barry.

    I guess as long as anyone clarifies that these 3 minute rules are in fact loose guidelines, Im ok with that.

    TG, Ive had some brilliant coffee from greens that were 4+ years old; extractions that oozed stable crema, and were balanced and full-bodied from 3+ week coffee, and how about somebody please explain to me what happens at what I suspect is the arbitrary time of 3 minutes that will be noticeably different to a coffee that was ground 4 minutes ago.

    Some examples:
    If I am unhappy with the roast when the greens are for my liking, too fresh. They can benefit from resting quietly in a corner for several months or longer after harvest.

    Monsoon Malabar is a classic example (as roasted by me) for a coffee that I get best results from 3 weeks + post roast.

    Better I think to suggest that coffee is ground on demand, at the time required, and per cup, than apply a time rule.

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    48

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    I have always viewed the "rule of threes" as indicative of the magnitude of time for the three phases of coffee. That is;
    Green beans - three years (less than four years in general, definitely not 10 years)
    Roast coffee - three weeks (definitely not three months)
    Ground coffee - three minutes (use as soon as possible, definitely not 3+ hours)

    Iím sure no body is trying to say to ditch roast beans 3 weeks and 1 day old. Iíve had roasts peek at around 3 weeks and be great for 3 more weeks after that. Like wise I have had coffee that is horrible at three weeks old. But I am never going to buy coffee from a supermarket that has been on the self for 3 months! The best before data on supermarket coffee of a year or more is joke. Also Iím never going to use coffee ground the day before (as one of my colleges proudly told me as his way of getting around waking the household up at 6am). Coffee degrades from heat, moisture, oxygen and light. Restrict these and the coffee will last longer, expose your coffee to these factors and it will degrade faster.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    230

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Phew... I glad Dennis clarification was from the uber-snob end of the spectrum and Im really glad 2mcm split this away from the "Hi! Im new here. Go easy on me!" thread where the problems probably arent about using greens that are too fresh or only using a stopwatch with 10ths rather than 100ths of a second accuracy to check the 3 minutes ;D

    More seriously... in the only other similar thread (that I remember) there was a post from someone who sounded horrified at the thought of leaving greens for three years - I think as opposed to using one season before the next is ready.* I thought that was the next level of snobdomism but more likely misguided over simplification appropriate to their circumstances?

  9. #9
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    I think this is very similar to ageing wines: some improve when aged correctly and some dont...

    I roasted the very last of some 05 Yemen Matari about 10 months ago. This green definitely improved with age and I was very sad to see the last of it. For me, it was one of my all time best evers.

    Some of my blends peak around day 14 or so, but the one blend with a robusta component is really at its best if left for a few weeks before it hits the grinder. Same goes for Malabar in my opinion.

    As for ground, Im with the majority here. Best is to grind for immediate use.

    Chris

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,339

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 444140475A585C5555330 link=1303011346/6#6 date=1303025173
    (as one of my colleges proudly told me as his way of getting around waking the household up at 6am)
    Thats a mistake. Everyone knows he should be doing this at 3am but no later than 3.03am. ;D

  11. #11
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    10,496

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 0117121203010D04040707620 link=1303011346/5#5 date=1303020128
    TG, Ive had some brilliant coffee from greens that were 4+ years old; extractions that oozed stable crema, and were balanced and full-bodied from 3+ week coffee, and how about somebody please explain to me what happens at what I suspect is the arbitrary time of 3 minutes that will be noticeably different to a coffee that was ground 4 minutes ago.
    Were on the same page.

    I struggled to understand why people raved about MM until I "lost" a bag for a couple of weeks and noticed it was starting to taste better than previous batches I hadnt waited long enough for.

    I also have some greens that are beyond 3 years old but have previously roasted +3yr old beans that turned out fine.

    Ill state now I dont intend to clarify the Rule of 3s is a loose guideline every time I mention them.

    Beginners need a starting point and the Rule of 3s is one of them.

    In my karate I teach students "basics".
    Most are not ready to learn a 3rd Dan kata straight away. ;)

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,339

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 5B677A616B6A7D68606B0F0 link=1303011346/10#10 date=1303046659
    Beginners need a starting point and the Rule of 3s is one of them.

    In my karate I teach students "basics".
    Then beginners should be advised that this rule is in fact not a rule but a rough guide.

    The way its usually written (in fact I havent seen it written any other way), anyone would think that they might be sucked into a black hole or something like it if they deviate at all.


  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    505

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    I look through my beans/blends and realise that this "rule" fits 95% of them. Well at least the 3 week. I have only had a 3 to 4 beans roasted up 3 years past their harvest date. Only one stood up though.

    Same with the extraction, only if the roast date is 0 - 2 days that going passed the 3 minutes is fine. Waiting until 4 minutes on most beans/roast date is quite noticeable. To be accurate I have only tried this 20 or so times, not on all beans and not a blind test.

    So to me "Green unroasted beans are at their best for 3 years, roasted beans 3 weeks and ground coffee 3 minutes." stands on fact of probability. I wouldnt throw it out or call it a rough guide because of edge cases like a Monsooned bean.
    I dont throw out Newtonian physics because quantum physics or relativity show that it is incorrect at edge cases. Ok extreme allegory but I hope you get what I mean.

    When someone is beginning to learn a new craft then the basic should be taught. What are the "basics"? Usually a rule that fits 95% of cases.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4,512

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    I never said to throw it out bassway.

    Do you roast your own coffee?

    If your answer is yes, then I suggest that has an overwhelming effect on why your coffees have a very similar best buy date.

    Do you buy from one, or more than one, commercial roaster? If you do purchase roasted coffee, is it always the same variety or do you purchase different blends and SOs?

    If you answer yes to any of these, you will find a variety of best buy dates according to your taste buds.

    Comparing the rule of 3 to a law of physics is a bit funny.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    505

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D4C4747405A290 link=1303011346/13#13 date=1303159365
    I never said to throw it out bassway.
    Quote Originally Posted by 4A5C5959484A464F4F4C4C290 link=1303011346/1#1 date=1303012122
    Quote Originally Posted by 7D5E4D4D46607B4A515C5E513F0 link=1163710607/1253#1253 date=1303011345
    Green unroasted beans are at their best for 3 years, roasted beans 3 weeks and ground coffee 3 minutes
    Ive seen this quote so many times and it really is just a load of rubbish.
    So you dont throw out your rubbish?

  16. #16
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4,512

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Youve taken snippets of what Ive said, entirely out of context, to suggest a different meaning.

    Good work. :P


  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    505

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 67464D4D4A50230 link=1303011346/15#15 date=1303166936
    Youve taken snippets of what Ive said, entirely out of context, to suggest a different meaning.

    Good work.* :P
    Thanks, as you have done to others posts including mine.
    Like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by 67464D4D4A50230 link=1303011346/13#13 date=1303159365
    Comparing the rule of 3 to a law of physics is a bit funny.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4,512

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Have it your own way bassway. I really dont care what you think.

  19. #19
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Internet
    Posts
    16,845
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Chill guys...

    I just had a phone call from your mothers and they said
    "if you cant say something nice then..."

    :-X

  20. #20
    Senior Member shapeshifter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    726

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    I just want to add my two cents :)

    I think its a great saying and Ive used it since I got into coffee.* Sure there might not be an exact science to it but I like to use it to get people thinking about coffee as a food group.

    That roasted coffee shouldnt be hanging around for months or even years before its used and ground coffee shouldnt be kept in a jar in the fridge that gets open and closed continually *groan*.

    I dont think that the average person considers coffee to have an expiry date, they get very used to drinking coffee that we would all cringe at.

    Anyway just saying, I think its a great saying and will continue to use it regardless of how accurate others think it is* :)

  21. #21
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4,512

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    I think its a great saying too. I just disagree with the idea that its a definitive rule. Again, I think if you are going to offer that advice, then it should be noted that its not hard and fast.

    Theres a bloke who just posted in another thread about pre-grinding coffee to take camping, and while not ideal, was still able to enjoy a nice coffee.


  22. #22
    Senior Member SniffCoffee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    705

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 7758524F360 link=1303011346/18#18 date=1303178178
    Chill guys...

    I just had a phone call from your mothers and they said
    "if you cant say something nice then..."

    How appropriate for your 10000th post Andy!

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    112

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 4355505041434F46464545200 link=1303011346/5#5 date=1303020128
    and how about somebody please explain to me what happens at what I suspect is the arbitrary time of 3 minutes that will be noticeably different to a coffee that was ground 4 minutes ago.
    And how is coffee ground 4 minutes ago noticeably different from coffee ground 5 minutes ago?
    And how is coffee ground 5 minutes ago noticeably different from coffee ground 6 minutes ago?

    And so it goes on.......

    Barryd, great guideline to go by, spot on.

    No one knows when coffee is at its best, because most people think they know best. Each to their own.

    The guideline is a great guideline to indicate workable parameters for budding coffee makers and Baristas alike.

    Quoting anyones quote as being a load of rubbish is a load of rubbish (irony.....)

    If some like to use and enjoy coffee at 3 months then thats cool, and if you like it at 3 weeks, thats cool too.

    When teaching a guideline to someone new to coffee regarding age and extraction, I would far rather use a rule like Baryds than such an enormously subjective answer such as..... well, it all depends on....... :o

  24. #24
    Senior Member shapeshifter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    726

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 3C2324272E3823243F2A27243D2E4B0 link=1303011346/22#22 date=1303265407
    And how is coffee ground 4 minutes ago noticeably different from coffee ground 5 minutes ago?
    And how is coffee ground 5 minutes ago noticeably different from coffee ground 6 minutes ago?
    I would think that since coffee is a live food that moisture content would affect it almost immediately and that the longer you leave it lying around the more moisture would affect it.

    For the average coffee consumer I dont think that this would make any difference to the taste whether its three or 10 minutes, but maybe to the professional they can perceive a difference.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,339

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 3D2225262F3922253E2B26253C2F4A0 link=1303011346/22#22 date=1303265407
    When teaching a guideline
    Its not a guideline. Its a rule!

  26. #26
    Senior Member sidewayss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia.
    Posts
    1,434

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    I can only offer this advice to anyone as simply as possible.
    Brew your coffee straight away after grinding, and only grind what you need. Simple as that.

    What you are smelling after grinding is the flavour escaping. Minimise it. Use it as soon as possible.

    As for campers, certainly it is convenient to pre-grind at home and then take with you, though there are some excellent hand grinders which dont take up much space and will achieve a better result in the cup.

    No one is going to start the clock to make sure grounds have to be used within 3 minutes.

    Just have to adapt technique and habits if you want the best coffee possible. :)

    Gary at G

  27. #27
    Senior Member shapeshifter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    726

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 564C414052445C5656250 link=1303011346/25#25 date=1303270800
    No one is going to start the clock to make sure grounds have to be used within 3 minutes.
    :-? Wellllllllll

    Im a little pedantic...


  28. #28
    Senior Member sidewayss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia.
    Posts
    1,434

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 322920312432292827352433410 link=1303011346/26#26 date=1303271127
    Im a little pedantic
    Dont tell me you have a timer...please.. :o :)

  29. #29
    Senior Member shapeshifter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    726

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Not exactly but I do have the read out of the thermocouple sitting next to the kettle and since I know it takes eight to 10 minutes to get to 90 degrees, once it hits 93 degrees that is when I do my grinding, most of the time working out that Im ready to pour when the temperature hits 90.8 degrees.

    mmmm maybe there is another word to describe me ;D

  30. #30
    Senior Member sidewayss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia.
    Posts
    1,434

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    OT, Aah thats different.
    I do the thermocouple thing too when i do the milk steaming and kettle temps for tea.

    Nice one shapeshifter.* :)

    For us veteran coffeesnobbers, the 3 3s dont have to apply. As discussions show, there are different variables, especially for roasted whole coffee beans. Some best at 7 days, some at 2 weeks etc.
    I still stick to my rule for grind enough for your needs, and use it straight away.

    Then 25-30ml extraction in 30 seconds.

    For those starting out on their coffee journey, my rule would be 3 years for green storage, 3 weeks for whole roasted beans, and finally, use grounds ASAP, as in brew straight away after grinding.

    Gary at G

  31. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    112

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 5D4B4E4E5F5D5158585B5B3E0 link=1303011346/24#24 date=1303269637
    Its not a guideline. Its a rule!
    Someone make this man a cup of coffee.... ;D

  32. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,339

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 455A5D5E57415A5D46535E5D4457320 link=1303011346/30#30 date=1303279390
    Quote Originally Posted by 5D4B4E4E5F5D5158585B5B3E0 link=1303011346/24#24 date=1303269637
    Its not a guideline.* Its a rule!
    Someone make this man a cup of coffee.... ;D
    Stop it! You made me laugh, and if anyone hears me doing that, it will ruin my image.


  33. #33
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    43

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    not so sure green coffee can stand 3years without losing some original flavors.
    Furthermore, why traders sells almost as rule greens in grain pro bags.
    Some well known europian rosteries (should say traders - correction) repack greens from jute bags to grainpros for 2 years already as they have found some beens (f.e. kenians) losing a lot of its potentials in 4-5months being laying in jute bags.

  34. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sydney North Shore
    Posts
    1,326

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    I never thought that the three threes would create so much discussion.

    We have to find simple way to educate newbes.

    There are many myths to do with coffee.

    One is that the best coffee comes from Italy. While the espresso machine was invented in Italy and we are thankful for that, I am not aware that any coffee is grown there.

    Looking around supermarket shelves I see coffee that was both roasted and ground in Italy. Why?

    Enough coffee drinkers must believe that this stale coffee is good to drink, for the supermarkets to give it shelf space.

    Barry

  35. #35
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    43

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 406370707B5D46776C61636C020 link=1303011346/33#33 date=1303282583
    I am not aware that any coffee is grown there.
    there is one - la finca del trieste at the hills above Trieste 8-)

  36. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,339

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Quote Originally Posted by 7E5D4E4E45637849525F5D523C0 link=1303011346/33#33 date=1303282583
    I never thought that the three threes would create so much discussion.
    I have a speech impediment Barry and pronounce it as the, free freeze. Perhaps thats why I might subconsciously avoid the whole notion.

    Its good to challenge popular beliefs from time to time though. Isnt it?

  37. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    219

    Re: Coffee age and freshness

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by 4553565647454940404343260 link=1303011346/35#35 date=1303284073
    I have a speech impediment Barry and pronounce it as the, free freeze.* Perhaps thats why I might subconsciously avoid the whole notion.
    Quite prudent. Customers might think you are offering frappacinos on the house. ;)



Similar Threads

  1. Coffee Freshness
    By carloz in forum General Coffee Related...
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 23rd November 2008, 10:08 PM
  2. Coffee Freshness at GJ
    By thegoodies in forum General Coffee Related...
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 29th January 2008, 05:52 PM
  3. Coffee Bean ~~ Freshness
    By sugilun in forum General Coffee Related...
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 16th July 2007, 12:48 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •