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Thread: Water - let it rest?

  1. #1
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    Water - let it rest?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi,

    I am renting at the moment and will relocate interstate in the not so far future. Hence I do not want to install a decent undersink water filter atm.
    My VBM has got a resin filter inside the tank though, this has to suffice for the time being.

    My question is: Should I use fresh water from the tap, or rather let the water sit inside the tank or a jug overnight or so before using it for brewing coffee?
    I heard somewhere that this would give the chlorine time to evaporate?? :-?

    Any truth to this?

    Thanks!

    Werner

  2. #2
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Chlorine isnt the issue - its water hardness that is the problem (ie dissolved Ca and Mg). Your best bet would be to get a water hardness tester from a sponsor (not very costly) and see if you even need one. My tank water is so soft I dont bother filtering. Other people have huge amounts of scale after a few months use.

    One solution doesnt fit all unfortunately.

  3. #3
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Big W has a sale on the Brita jugs at the moment and they take away a lot of the chlorine. My parents are in the bush and their tap water is almost undrinkable from chlorine without the filter.

  4. #4
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Just a reminder that the Brita filters wont remove scale after about the 2nd day.

    Letting water sit will allow the chlorine to dissipate, sitting in the tank in the back of the espresso machine would be the place to do it ;)

  5. #5
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Gday Werner.... :)

    Dont know if youve spotted this thread but theres some very useful information to be found in there... 8-)

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1300415170

    Mal.

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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    thanks everyone for contributing! Will have a read and a look.
    One day I will invest in undersink filtration...but not quite yet.

    Werner

  7. #7
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Bombora have sink top filters that you can plug into your tap when you want to use them and then put it away between uses.

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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    @trentski
    interesting, couldnt find it on their site, unless it is the "shower" one.
    Will give em a call!

    ...and test my water so I know what I am dealing with!

    Thanks!

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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Carbon filters do a partial job removing free chlorine, but the problem is that most water treatment authorities are using Chloramine, which carbon is quite ineffective in removing. Under heat and pressure, the chloramine breaks down into chlorine and ammonia.

    De-ionising resin works great but exhausts extremely quickly, quicker than most people realise. A 9 3/4" x 2 1/2" DI cartridge running straight tap water would only be totally effective for less than 600L of sydney tap water. The DI cartridges in most domestic coffee machine I would estimate only contain on tenth the amount of resin.

    The most sure fire way of perfecting taste and stopping water scale is a purpose built reverse osmosis system.
    http://whitehorsecoffee.com.au/2010/...verse-osmosis/

    There are smaller domestic systems with reminieralisation which are the same as commercial ones except they are much lower volue units and the price is cheaper:
    http://www.gpawholefoods.com.au/reve...tion-p-47.html

    These systems can be temporarily set up in rental place also, usually in the laundry.

  10. #10
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    something like this
    http://www.clean-machine.com.au/Countertop_with_Softening_Filter.html

    can have a fitting that you either put over the end of the tap or depending on your tap set, screws into the thread on the end of the tap. You know the bit where they put that aerator fitting

  11. #11
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Hi,

    ah..ok. Interesting, will have to inquire...

    I spoke to our chemist and she said that our Canberra water is soft, she expects the chlorine to be the bigger problem. For that a Brita jug should be all right, right?

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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    US Govt standards for water give the following scientific definitions:
    Soft: 060 mg/L
    Moderately hard: 61120 mg/L
    Hard: 121180 mg/L
    Very hard: [ch8805]181 mg/L

    So scientifically speaking Canberra does have what is classed as soft water.

    According to ACT Govt water analysis figures Stromlo water supply is 40-50mg/L Calcium and Googong water supply is 50-80 mg/L.

    If you do the Langelier Saturation Index calculations and factor in the environmental conditions that exist inside a coffee machine boiler, then anything above 50mg/L will cause scale. Anything below 35mg/L is safe.

    FYI:

    LSI = pH - ((9.3 + ((Log10 [TDS] - 1) / 10) + (-13.12 x Log10 (Deg C + 273) + 34.55)) - ((Log10 [Ca2+ as CaCO3] - 0.4) + (Log10 [alkalinity as CaCO3])))

    Also since standard carbon filters do not remove dissolved solids, brita jugs wont fix the LSI
    Listen4Life likes this.

  13. #13
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Thanks, seems like you know what you are talking about. Not always the case on the internet by any means ;)

    What does the resin filter inside the coffee machines tank filter out?

    Thanks!

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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    The DI resin inside coffee machines is designed to remove any aqueous free ions in solution, hence Deionising Resin. Ions form when any ionic soluble material dissociates in solution.

    In a nut shell it is a crude way to supposedly prevent water scale, but depending on your system setup and you local water hardness it may only be good for as little as one full tank of water.

    The coffee machine manufacturers are not in the water filtration industry, and are not selling water filters, they see it as a cheap bit of insurance and another way to get you to spend more money buying them. They will still sting you for insufficient descaling if water scale causes a problem, and most warranties exclude water scale damage.

  15. #15
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Well, around here "pyro2b"... ::)

    We call on the knowledge of specialist water filter specialists Bombora, who are also one of our esteemed Site Sponsors, i.e. they help in keeping this great website up and running. We tend to recommend that anyone seeking specialist knowledge on the subject of water filtration in general and TDS control specifically, talk to Bernard and/or the crew at Bombora to ensure their needs are properly met.

    I have yet to hear of an instance where they (Bombora) have ever steered anyone the wrong direction with regard to filtration and/or TDS control, and they also recommend regular monitoring of the TDS in the water downstream of the installed filters. This, coupled with regular inspections of the Boiler internals and HX circuit internals (if applicable), is the only real way to determine if the filter/treatment system being used is living up to its claims.

    So far and after a few years, I have not been disappointed.... 8-)

    Mal.

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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Hi Mal,

    My interpretation of what you I read you saying (as opposed to hear) is that Im not a water specialist, thus have no real authority discussing complex issues of water filtration.

    I respect that you have sponsors who you wish to protect their reputation and credibility, but I can not see anything that I have said that would be classed as libellous against you, your site or your sponsors.

    Since you do not know anything about me nor my competencies, I will state that I have completed a few years of university chemistry, physics, geology and Astronomy. I have worked in the chemical industry as a chemical technician, and my specialty in that industry was dealing with both extremely hazardous chemicals and chemicals that are so rare and unusual that they virtually unknown to the majority of the scientific community.
    With in my studies I covered Inorganic Chemistry 201 & 202 that dealt specifically the subjects at hand, that being dissociation of ions in solutions, saturated solutions at equilibrium and the langlier index.

    I thought this forum was about sharing knowledge and helping others to get their heads around subject matter that they currently do not know or understand.

    It has been my experience, even dealing with university professors, that there is much conjecture even within the science community over some of these issue with regards to the methods measuring water quality and the interpretation of the data. I have known circumstances when professors of universities have been wrong, I even proved my geology professor wrong on something that hed been teaching for years.

    I welcome or anyone to to show me where my science is erroneous, as I would not what to be using scientific equation that doesnt reflect real world data.

    And that being the case I would like to be presented with a amended formula that I can use in order to know I am calculating correctly.

    I leave it your hands.


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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Quote Originally Posted by 333A312C7121430 link=1308551675/15#15 date=1309256291
    My interpretation of what you I read you saying (as opposed to hear) is that Im not a water specialist, thus have no real authority discussing complex issues of water filtration.
    Sorry Pyro, but I think you may have gotten a little ahead of yourself there in assuming that Mals comment was intended as an insult. I (and everyone else in this community) can assure you that it is in no way intended to be offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by 333A312C7121430 link=1308551675/15#15 date=1309256291
    I even proved my geology professor wrong on something that hed been teaching for years.
    Theres nothing wrong with having knowledge, but its when you assert your knowledge in such a way that it comes across as almost arrogance, that conflict can arise. We understand that you are knowledgeable regarding this issue, and no-one is attempting to refute this.
    But note, you are not the ONLY one who can supply information concerning filtration, Bombora do an excellent job.

    Next time, before jumping the gun, give the other person on the other side of your computer screen the benefit of the doubt; the tone conveyed through text is often misinterpreted.

  18. #18
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    I was merely trying to point out that we have specialist water filtering/management knowledge available to all who visit the forum. We dont necessarily have to rely on what a non-specialist water filtration/treatment, coffee hardware retailer might recommend.... As you suggested above.

    Im sure when you research our forum more thoroughly, you will understand the point I was trying to make...

    Cheers,
    Mal.

  19. #19
    brett230873
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4A43485508583A0 link=1308551675/13#13 date=1309176372
    The DI resin inside coffee machines is designed to remove any aqueous free ions in solution, hence Deionising Resin. Ions form when any ionic soluble material dissociates in solution.

    In a nut shell it is a crude way to supposedly prevent water scale, but depending on your system setup and you local water hardness it may only be good for as little as one full tank of water.

    The coffee machine manufacturers are not in the water filtration industry, and are not selling water filters, they see it as a cheap bit of insurance and another way to get you to spend more money buying them. They will still sting you for insufficient descaling if water scale causes a problem, and most warranties exclude water scale damage.
    Thank you for this fantastic post. Youve articulated very succinctly what many of us have either known or suspected.

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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Quote Originally Posted by 565D454F53525059534B3C0 link=1308551675/16#16 date=1309260944
    Theres nothing wrong with having knowledge, but its when you assert your knowledge in such a way that it comes across as almost arrogance, that conflict can arise.
    Hi Jaysonlew, I guess my personality of INTJ doesnt come through to everyones liking via web. Im a facts man, Id rather talk in formulas and equations than "messy dribble" we call language ;D (Unless its law or regulation then bring it on!)

    I have looked on the website using the search facility, but have not found anyone discussing LSI or how to calculate water scale, (unless its hidden somewhere).

    Quote Originally Posted by 7855515D503C0 link=1308551675/17#17 date=1309268669
    I was merely trying to point out that we have specialist water filtering/management knowledge available to all who visit the forum. We dont necessarily have to rely on what a non-specialist water filtration/treatment, coffee hardware retailer might recommend.... As you suggested above.

    Im sure when you research our forum more thoroughly, you will understand the point I was trying to make...

    Cheers,
    Mal.
    Mal,

    Ive had plethora of jobs and career changes in my life thus far, and done work experience across a diverse spectrum of industries. Whilst I was at uni, I had the privilege of work experience alongside an engineer at Liddel Powersation, and boy you should see their water scale issues!

    Did you know that in times gone by, the power stations used to utilise the services of good old Winchester and 12 gauge to remedy their calcium deposits! I think this has been suspended due to political correctness and possibly OH&S* :D

    I dare say not too many CSrs will bee getting out the ol shottie to remedy boiler issues.* :-?

    Through out my many experiences in life, working with water filtration and engineering water to meet set specifications for scientific purposes has most certainly part of my curriculum.

    I have various philosophies in life, but some are:

    1)* Theres always a solution to any given problem

    2) Why deal with uncertainty when you can make it certain

    3) Eliminate the variables, and youre bound to be able to repeat any success.

    With water for my beverages I apply these principles:

    1) Stuff in water affects the taste of beverages and damages equipment - must prevent

    2) Standardise the water to a consistent quality so you know what youre dealing with - all the time

    3) Why add more items into the equation (Chemicals, inhibitors or exchanging ions) just get rid of the lot. - Less is really more!* ;D

  21. #21
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2B22293469395B0 link=1308551675/11#11 date=1308734916
    If you do the Langelier Saturation Index calculations and factor in the environmental conditions that exist inside a coffee machine boiler, then anything above 50mg/L will cause scale. Anything below 35mg/L is safe.
    If over 50mg/L causes scale and under 35mg/L is safe, what happens between 36mg/L and 49mg/L? :-/

  22. #22
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    I give up.... :-? :-/

    Mal.

  23. #23
    TC
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Quote Originally Posted by 04252E2E2933400 link=1308551675/20#20 date=1309294270
    If over 50mg/L causes scale and under 35mg/L is safe, what happens between 36mg/L and 49mg/L?*
    I am reliably informed that you enter a space/time continuum only to find yourself in 1949 :D

  24. #24
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Quote Originally Posted by 43767B7C48547871717272170 link=1308551675/22#22 date=1309333094
    Quote Originally Posted by 04252E2E2933400 link=1308551675/20#20 date=1309294270
    If over 50mg/L causes scale and under 35mg/L is safe, what happens between 36mg/L and 49mg/L?*
    I am reliably informed that you enter a space/time continuum only to find yourself in 1949* :D
    Whoa....I think Ive drunk some of that water! ;D

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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Quote Originally Posted by 55606D6A5E426E67676464010 link=1308551675/22#22 date=1309333094
    Quote Originally Posted by 04252E2E2933400 link=1308551675/20#20 date=1309294270
    If over 50mg/L causes scale and under 35mg/L is safe, what happens between 36mg/L and 49mg/L?*
    I am reliably informed that you enter a space/time continuum only to find yourself in 1949* :D
    It upsets the flux capacitor on mine as well.

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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Hi back my way I use well water as i am more concerned about the fluoride they add in the tap water hydrofluosilicic acid classed as a poison also my water could have more minerals in it so could be interesting to see how the espresso machine lasts before a descale sorry if its a bit off topic very interesting topic :)

  27. #27
    Senior Member dr.a.j.pickering's Avatar
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Oh sh!t sydney water average is 46 mg/L (http://www.sydneywater.com.au/WaterQuality/QuarterlyDrinkingWaterQualityReport/ccr24/faq.htm) so that must be the reason my delorean has never worked but my Gaggia never scales.

  28. #28
    joz
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    If anyone wants to measure their hardness they should pop into their local aquarium and buy a test kit.
    Serious aquariasts are very pedantic about water chemistry,getting it wrong kills their livestock.
    So for less than $20 grab a hardness kit.
    Also may marine aquariums will sell you R/O water by the 20 litre drum if you need it.
    Back in my younger day I was a fish fanatic and used all manor of test kits.No degree required.

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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    So what are peoples thoughts on using rain water for a machine?

  30. #30
    KJM
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1D3839232E570 link=1308551675/28#28 date=1321873094
    So what are peoples thoughts on using rain water for a machine?
    Well, it works. I only use Rainwater (simply because it is the only water supply I have (apart from the dam water, and Im not drinking that).

    Just lately Ive been following the advice from Jim Schulman in his insanely long water FAQ. http://www.big-rick.com/coffee/waterfaq.html - so Ive been adding a pinch of bicarb to the tank. Not a scientific pinch, mind you (which is a bit unusual for me :-? ) and the coffee tastes terrific.

    Prior to reading Jims well written work, the coffee at home was decidedly a bit bright compared to shots done at work.

    My conclusion is that rainwater is absolutely fine!

    /Kevin

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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Thanks KJM

    Ill go off and read the article. Lucky I majored in Chem at uni and have some knowledge of water quality.* Since I work in the medicinal industry, Ill be able to take samples into to work and do TDS, pH and conductivity in the lab :)

    I am looking at putting in a water diverter into my gutter system and solely capturing water for the project I am working on (researching hard for a machine!).

    Thanks for the comments as Im not just a theory person but also value practical experience of others :)*

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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    It might not be of much use to anyone, but I know the Water Corp in WA will provide full representative water quality analyses for your area. I requested some a few years ago when I was checking my local water for home-brewing.

    Ultimately, I ended up switching to 50:50 bottled water and boiling the water before use...


  33. #33
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Quote Originally Posted by 193C3D272A530 link=1308551675/28#28 date=1321873094
    So what are peoples thoughts on using rain water for a machine?
    Id still make sure you filter the water properly, but rain water should be absolutely fine. The bicarbonate trick is an option, but some may not like the slight taste it brings to the party.

  34. #34
    KJM
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    Re: Water - let it rest?

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by 051C08253F2F393F3F4C0 link=1308551675/32#32 date=1321994424
    Id still make sure you filter the water properly, but rain water should be absolutely fine. The bicarbonate trick is an option, but some may not like the slight taste it brings to the party.
    I have to say - our rainwater is darn close to absolutely crystal clear without filtering.. But it does go through a 10u filter and then a carbon filter in the kitchen.. The water sits in a 45kl tank, so it has oodles of time to settle right out!

    The bicarb "trick" does actually work - and there is no discernable taste (at least, at the dilution rate I use). I put 1 pinch in the tank. If you do an A/B taste comparison of just the water, you can pick a slight difference from the change in pH (our rainwater is slightly acidic - about 6 in the winter, rising to just under 7 in mid summer - the rainwater tank is in-ground and concrete!). But you can only pick that by putting your fingers in and rubbing them together. The taste, I would say, is identical.

    I have zero worries recommending the bicarb trick to rainwater users.

    Cheers
    /Kevin



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