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Thread: Whats Wrong With Lavazza Coffee?

  1. #51
    Coffee Newbie okitoki's Avatar
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    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    maybe for other style of coffee.. cold brew, drip, french press, aeropress?

    I remember my first try with my first espresso machine using these beans.... urgh.... stale beans plus bad technique..... was truly terrible....

  2. #52
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Funny video. Hardly an unexpected result. I have done the same thing with wine.
    In 2002 I took some bottles of Penfolds Grange Hermitage to their travelling "Wine Clinic".
    I was confident a few would be fine but several would be damaged due to being kept too long in poor storage.
    We sampled them all - as is the process - and some were fine and some were not. It was educational.
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  3. #53
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    So much opinion, so little actual informed experience.

    I have no idea what the result will be, but I have an open mind.

    I ordered from the USA because there is some chance that the coffee will be reasonably dated based on higher turnover.

    It easy to have opinions, all you need is an armchair. Getting up and trying stuff is where all the fun is at.

    My usual brew is self roasted in a Behmor from any one of many choices of grean bean suppliers here in NZ.

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    As an aside, I would love to have the option to buy some robusta varieties on beanbay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Otago View Post
    Hilarious!
    I'm impressed he had a few sips!

  6. #56
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryM View Post
    So much opinion, so little actual informed experience.

    I have no idea what the result will be, but I have an open mind.

    I ordered from the USA because there is some chance that the coffee will be reasonably dated based on higher turnover.

    It easy to have opinions, all you need is an armchair. Getting up and trying stuff is where all the fun is at.

    My usual brew is self roasted in a Behmor from any one of many choices of grean bean suppliers here in NZ.

    Not only armchair opinions Gary, some of the people offering them have vast experience in the industry, others are long time home barista's and home roasters, most know only too well the qualities of Lavazza and Kinbo coffee, very ordinary when fresh, horrible when stale.

    Then have a look at the post counts of the members contributing, most have been around for a long time.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamianS View Post
    As an aside, I would love to have the option to buy some robusta varieties on beanbay.
    There are 4 green Robustas on BeanBay currently. I also thought I saw Andy post somewhere that he can do some offline Robusta roasts? It may have been an old thread so I'm not 100% on that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barlo View Post
    There are 4 green Robustas on BeanBay currently.
    Yeah, unfortunately I can't roast my own beans yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by barlo View Post
    I also thought I saw Andy post somewhere that he can do some offline Robusta roasts? It may have been an old thread so I'm not 100% on that one.
    There has occasionally been one robusta variety in the 'already roasted' sections, but they don't last very long before disappearing.
    The lesson seems to be that those people who can roast their own beans are more adventurous than those who buy already roasted beans.
    I might send Andy a PM to see if he could do just one Robusta roast.

    For someone wondering why would someone want to try Robusta versus Arabica, Robusta gives you much more crema and allows you to more easily try the 'lungo' and even 'Caffè crema' style pours, where you are doing very long shots, a minute or more.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamianS View Post
    Yeah, unfortunately I can't roast my own beans yet.
    I feel like a bit of an evangelist but having just started on the Corretto roasting path I recommend giving it a go.
    A cheap breadmaker from gumtree of fb marketplace and an Ozito (or similar) heat gun will get you started.

    I have added a bean cooler, breadmaker insulation, thermocouple and a makeshift 'lid' for mine but even without them I am confident I could now roast some greens fairly evenly.
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  10. #60
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    As above, give roasting a bash, it’s very easy and cheap. And a lot of fun. You’ll never look back!!

    I can’t believe I wasted years not roasting thinking it was too complicated.

    Cheers
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  11. #61
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    For someone wondering why would someone want to try Robusta versus Arabica, Robusta gives you much more crema and allows you to more easily try the 'lungo' and even 'Caffè crema' style pours, where you are doing very long shots, a minute or more.
    Yes, one of the recommendations in the Italian bean thread on Home Barista. All based around 14g double too.

  12. #62
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    Don't say we didn't tell you once your dough is blown... Perhaps you won't notice the difference.
    head.jpeg
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  13. #63
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamianS View Post
    Yeah, unfortunately I can't roast my own beans yet.


    There has occasionally been one robusta variety in the 'already roasted' sections, but they don't last very long before disappearing.
    The lesson seems to be that those people who can roast their own beans are more adventurous than those who buy already roasted beans.
    I might send Andy a PM to see if he could do just one Robusta roast.

    For someone wondering why would someone want to try Robusta versus Arabica, Robusta gives you much more crema and allows you to more easily try the 'lungo' and even 'Caffè crema' style pours, where you are doing very long shots, a minute or more.

    Robusta is generally pretty harsh as a 100% single origin Damian, when roasting most of us will only add about 10% Robusta to improve crema and give the roast an Italian touch.

    No problems pulling a Lungo with Arabica beans, my morning coffee of choice.

    Have a look at the pricing of Robusta green beans in BeanBay, there's a reason why Arabica beans are almost twice as expensive.

    "Caffe Crema" not a term I'm familiar with, had to Google it, Wikipedia tells us.


    "Caffè crema (Italian: "cream coffee") refers to two different coffee drinks:[1]

    • An old name for espresso (1940s and 1950s).
    • A long espresso drink primarily served in Germany, Switzerland and Austria and northern Italy (1980s onwards), along the Italian/Swiss and Italian/Austrian border.[2] In Germany it is generally known as a "Café Crème"[3] or just "Kaffee" and is generally the default type of black coffee served, unless there is a filter machine.

    As a colorful term it generally means "espresso", while in technical discussions, referring to the long drink, it may more narrowly be referred to as Swiss caffè crema. In addition, there's also Italian iced crema caffè."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caff%C3%A8_crema
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caffeinator View Post
    Don't say we didn't tell you once your dough is blown... Perhaps you won't notice the difference.
    head.jpeg
    Gee you're a socialable chap aren't you.

  15. #65
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryM View Post
    Gee you're a socialable chap aren't you.
    Blunt but honest Gary, Caffeinator has forgotten more about coffee than most of us will ever know.
    Blunt.jpg
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryM View Post
    Gee you're a socialable chap aren't you.
    Don't take it personally GaryM. Some people like to beat you over the head with their superior knowledge.
    Says more about them than it does about you.

    Ps ah, takes me back to my school days.

  17. #67
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Come on guys! do you realize just how frustrating it is when people ask for advice then totally ignore the expert opinions offered, feels like your beating your head against a wall.

    Diplomacy has its place however sometimes you need to be blunt for the message to get through.

    This old story did the rounds years ago, probably never happened, regardless, it makes a point, don't beat around the bush.

    “A plumber wrote to the Bureau of Standards saying that he had found hydrochloric acid good for cleaning out clogged drains.
    The bureau wrote back, ‘The efficacy of hydrochloric acid is indisputable, but chlorine residue is incompatible with metallic permanence.’ The plumber replied that he was glad the bureau agreed. The bureau tried again, writing, ‘We cannot assume responsibility for the production of toxic and noxious residues with hydrochloric acid, and suggest that you use an alternate procedure.’ The plumber again said that he was glad the bureau agreed with him. Finally, the bureau wrote to the plumber, ‘Don’t use hydrochloric acid; it eats the hell out of the pipes.’ ”
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  18. #68
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    Well I actually didn't write asking for advice. I've been at this, home roasting, espresso making and drinking for about 15 years plus. I've enough experience to be able to determine if this Home Barista inspired experiment produces anything of value to me. It's my money, and I'm open to it being a crap out. I just don't care. I want to try it, and I'm just reporting here, for any who might be interested. Likely the silent ones.

  19. #69
    Coffee Newbie okitoki's Avatar
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    hope you get some good result from your experiment...
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryM View Post
    Gee you're a socialable chap aren't you.
    Yep. I have been known to call a spade a spade.

    Enjoy.... Especially the Kimbo. It's a whole new level of special .

    Your tastebuds, your money, your choice to waste it on sh!te, stale, commodity coffee.

    nutty.png
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  21. #71
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    And a follow-up video from James Hoffman giving 1970s coffee the benefit of the doubt by employing a proper V60 technique.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QVoSTISe9Rc

    Just as hilarious.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryM View Post
    Well I actually didn't write asking for advice. I've been at this, home roasting, espresso making and drinking for about 15 years plus. I've enough experience to be able to determine if this Home Barista inspired experiment produces anything of value to me. It's my money, and I'm open to it being a crap out. I just don't care. I want to try it, and I'm just reporting here, for any who might be interested. Likely the silent ones.
    G'day GaryM

    Go for it mate, that is how we all learn.

    BTW, the reason that 100% Robusta is rare is due to it having a "burnt rubber taste and smell" (read it too many times, tried it and fully concur). Using 10% to 15% gives a caffeine and crema boost whilst allowing you to hide the rubbery taste via selecting the rest of the roast carefully.

    One of my favourite dark roasts (historically - it has been years) is actually 15% of a top quality Robusta (dark roasted), about 30% Indian Monsoon processed (dark roasted, complete with that classic mouldy jute aftertaste) and Kenya Peaberry (the rest, roasted medium-light - a truly power packed "flavour disguiser and flavour broadener"). All roasted separately. A classic case of three wrongs make a right.

    If it comes out well, enjoy the glow. Just don't expect some of the CS diehards to change their minds - even if they haven't tried your blend...

    TampIt
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  23. #73
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    Hey Tampit, that blend does sound like a disaster. I definitely don't like the Malabar Monsoon alone, and I find the African beans that the third wave are in love with generally too bright and light for my taste. (drinking a Yirgacheffe recently roasted at present... My wife likes it but it doesn't do anything for me, and it doesn't work when added to a darker roasted Brazilian I have here as well.)

    No accounting for taste, which is why this coffee thing should resist dogma.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryM View Post
    Hey Tampit, that blend does sound like a disaster. I definitely don't like the Malabar Monsoon alone, and I find the African beans that the third wave are in love with generally too bright and light for my taste. (drinking a Yirgacheffe recently roasted at present... My wife likes it but it doesn't do anything for me, and it doesn't work when added to a darker roasted Brazilian I have here as well.)

    No accounting for taste, which is why this coffee thing should resist dogma.
    G'day GaryM

    I am with you on the solo Malabar Monsoon - even the smell, let alone the aftertaste, makes me feel queasy these days. Mind you, I was "medium level smoking" way back then so my tastebuds were half nuked.

    That blend was from one of Perth's top roasters as an experiment. I am still unsure how he worked it out. It was the year (1976 or 77) when Kenya Peaberry flooded the Perth market - still one of the most "flavour power packed miniature" beans I know of. Nothing like the usual African.

    The less surprising blend (this from a single malt kind of guy... - I never blend personally unless it is to fix up screw-ups) was about 15% Kenya Peaberry added to Oz Skyberry (Atherton Tablelands). Early unadulterated Skyberry had a really sharp, narrow flavour band and either Cuban Laquino (wonderful mild broad flavour profile) or the Kenyan massively transformed it to a medal winning drink. Probably a lot better than either the Kenyan or Skyberry on its own. I still miss the Cuban (and a whole batch of other "current rarities").

    I always come back to "enjoy the cuppa in front of you" - and if it is really special that is a bonus. BTW, yet another "weird Guatemalan varietal" is in front of me as I write this - quirky, different cuppa magic.

    TampIt
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  25. #75
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    It's not about "dogma" mate but down to accumulated knowledge and experience from a wide range of professionals who have decades within the industry...

    Mal.
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  26. #76
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    GaryM - There is nothing wrong with Lavazza or other Italian commercial blends, they have their place and have existed for 120 years because they have enough customers to keep the business open, someone likes it even if you are having trouble finding people here that do.

    The problem I have (apart from your comments in post #53) is with your logic of buying from Seattle because they will have high turnover.

    I've been to Seattle and Portland many times on coffee trips and it's the hub of speciality coffee in America from Starbucks and Starbucks Reserve to many 100's of small batch roasters who proudly craft some of the best coffee in the country. I've been to Seattle Coffee Gear too and my impression is that they wouldn't sell much pre-packaged imported coffee coffee with so much local choice within walking distance.

    The most likely freight route from a Turin roaster to Seattle is via road to the docks, a shipping container to East coast USA, probably delivered to a warehouse then distributed across the country by truck. At a retail price of US$20/kg, it really can't do very much if any air freight.

    Seattle being the furthest point from the East coast arrival makes that a long trip. I would have to guess that anything under a 2 month roast date would be "fresh".

    Air freighting from Turin, you would have a chance of getting beans under a week old and it would be a far fairer experiment.

    I look forward to seeing what the roast date is on the beans when you get them in your hand after their 20,000km trip. I would even encourage other CS'rs to check their local supermarkets to see what their local distribution dates are.

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    Thanks Andy. I checked the use by date with the local importer here.. October 2020. From what I understand that is about 20 months after roast date, so I passed up on that.

    Next choice was Whole Latte Love on the East Coast USA. They accepted then cancelled my order without explanation.

    Seattle Coffee Gear was the next stop. They did accept and process the order and operate online through Amazon. Their turnover could well be high enough, well see. It's a punt after all. Reports elsewhere have had ok dates via Amazon.

    It seems that it needs to be within 12 months of roast date (Home Barista). The beans are nitrogen sealed so ok on opening but to be frozen quickly thereafter.

    I did try to buy an Italian specialist blend from a roaster in Italy, but the freight to get a kilo here was going to be about 50 euro. No thanks.

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    By the way on another thread there was a recommended blend from an Australian roaster, but sadly, as with most Aussie businesses, New Zealand is too foreign to ship to.

  29. #79
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryM View Post
    I did try to buy an Italian specialist blend from a roaster in Italy, but the freight to get a kilo here was going to be about 50 euro.
    ...and that's my point. At the location and prices you are looking at, you will only get surface freight and lot of miles and days from the roaster. The same beans in a UK coffee forum are far more likely to a month off the roaster. I move a lot of stuff around the planet and can tell you that airfreight is expensive, 50 Euro is high, but not unheard of, especially for a fast DHL/FedEx type service.

    Off topic in this Lavazza thread, but if you want to try an Italian import it might be worth contacting Site Sponsor Casa Espresso, I don't know if they ship out of Australia.
    https://coffeesnobs.com.au/general-c...fee-beans.html
    https://coffeesnobs.com.au/general-n...tml#post133435

    as with most Aussie businesses, New Zealand is too foreign to ship
    More than an hour lost in shipping declarations and paperwork for an international order, needs to be posted in the post office in person with ID verified by staff along with finding a carpark and the time spent waiting in a queue to get served. I don't know what your normal hourly rate is but that staff time needs to get added to the total cost for the seller to make the same as a domestic sale. It's also possible that's a fair part of the 50 euro quote you got, time and hassle outside of normal process is expensive, someone has to pay it.
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    It must be a lot harder to do business over there. I run a manufacturing export business here in New Zealand and can send stuff anywhere in the world with very little effort or time involved.... 25 kilos to Sydney for about NZ$130 on a 3 day service. I just send an email to my Logistics supplier and it gets picked up.

  31. #81
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    What’s wrong with Lavazza? Nothing for a little one of experiment really, but personally I’m doing my best not to support any of the large corporations that perpetuate the colonial commodity trading systems that were essentially set up to supply the first world with cheap commodities while the elite and ruling classes got rich and those in the new world got nothing.
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  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryM View Post
    It must be a lot harder to do business over there. I run a manufacturing export business here in New Zealand and can send stuff anywhere in the world with very little effort or time involved.... 25 kilos to Sydney for about NZ$130 on a 3 day service. I just send an email to my Logistics supplier and it gets picked up.
    Freight options in Australia are actually much worse than they are here in NZ Gary, pretty much across the board. It’s not impossible, but you need to be committed to shipping outside your state and be innovative. It can be done, one of our site sponsors Alternative Brewing is a perfect example of a company that is on top of it.
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    While I wait for my beans I reread some of the Home Barista thread. One thing there is the focus on 14g doses and a standard double basket.

    For interest I swapped out my IMS and put in the double that came with the VBM. I'm grinding with the Niche for 14g and 28g out in about 30 seconds.

    What a surprise. Better coffee than I've had in a long while. More nuanced.

  34. #84
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryM View Post
    While I wait for my beans I reread some of the Home Barista thread. One thing there is the focus on 14g doses and a standard double basket.

    For interest I swapped out my IMS and put in the double that came with the VBM. I'm grinding with the Niche for 14g and 28g out in about 30 seconds.

    What a surprise. Better coffee than I've had in a long while. More nuanced.

    I'm trying to understand where your coming from Gary, in post #68 this thread you say "I've been at this, home roasting, espresso making and drinking for about 15 years plus." most of us have a better than average understanding of the process with 15 years of practical experience under our belt.

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    I've followed the general trend of bigger doses bigger baskets. 18g or so typically, in a basket that is full without impacting on the screen. Never thought to try 14g doses. Is that surprising?

  36. #86
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    Yelta you can't blame a guy for mixing it up a bit! Assuming Gary nailed his personal coffee in 5 years, that means he has a a decade the same. He deserves some variety.

    Never to old to experiment or learn.
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    Thanks 388. There is a huge amount to be said for taking a naive approach to things. Unlearning is a powerful tool.

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryM View Post
    I've followed the general trend of bigger doses bigger baskets. 18g or so typically, in a basket that is full without impacting on the screen. Never thought to try 14g doses. Is that surprising?
    Morning Gary, most of us start out using a 7 gram basket in our early espresso days, then gradually work up, 14, 18, 21 and so on until we feel we've gone over the top, then we start to reduce the dose until we arrive at what we feel is the Goldilocks zone for our taste, somewhere in the very distant past that happened for me at 18 grams, there I have remained to this day.

    Perhaps I'm simply an irredeemable creature of habit.
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    I don't think I ever took that journey. I started with a Silvia and the basket that came with it. Was never interested in single shots and the 7g dose is a bitch to get right. With the Mazzer I had I let the timer grind and it just happened to produce a dose that filled the IMS basket I had bought. I levelled it and tamped. (watched the technique of baristas around town and this is what they seemed to do) An easy procedure. Grind was adjusted to get the requisite volume out. I was happy with the results so there I stayed. Better coffee at home than elsewhere. Double short blacks as we call them here.

    Since I moved to the VBM a couple of years back, and more so since I got the Niche grinder, I've been searching again...



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