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Thread: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

  1. #1
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    PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    [img width=400 height=300]http://imgur.com/KEmSn.jpg[/img]

    Still in the development phase, but looks an interesting project.
    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espresso-machine?ref=live

    Also chat with one of the developers on reddit about it here:
    http://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comments/n8og6/this_looks_like_an_amazing_machine_a_kickstarter/

    Thermoblock, so not everyones cup of tea, but then you wouldnt be spending less than $300 on a machine if you wanted a twin boiler would you?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    Was made aware & read about it a while ago

    Please Note
    Only available in 120 Volt

    Or Over $1000 for a 240 Volt model

    KK

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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    Ahh, my apologies then.
    I am not around here so often these days so I must have missed that thread.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    Quote Originally Posted by 505552525D59523C0 link=1323689352/2#2 date=1323690899
    Ahh, my apologies then.
    I am not around here so often these days so I must have missed that thread.
    You did the right thing & a good topic of discussion
    It was never posted on CS (to my knowledge)

    KK

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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    My first thoughts were "is this a real project" (and Im still not sure really).

    Then I thought, "nice but who will buy it"

    A coffeesnob who wants something affordable as a spare machine for the backyard shed or office?

    Maybe not at $1k for the 240v!

    Even assuming the 110v pricing just how many people would buy this type of machine over the current crop of offerings at this price point ? It will be a long time before PID means anything to the mass market so unless they can sell the point of difference idea to a major electrical manufacturer or retail chain (the likes of costco, walmart, aldi), then buyers will be limited.



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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    hmm
    this is interesting

    but from what im reading on the faq
    adding $10 to the pledge and they will throw in a converter for you

    "The machine is designed for the US market at 110v. However, if you add 10.00 to your pledge, we will include a converter with your machine. And at the 1k reward level, we will custom build the machine to be compatible with your countrys electrical standard. "

    so the 2 options are:
    1) add $10 for converter
    2) pay $1000 for fully customized machine

    do correct me if im wrong though
    but the phrasing does sound like there is 2 options there

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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    Sounds like two options to me.
    Tempting but $300 will go a long way to a new Behmor and the exasperated sigh I got from the OH when I read her Andys update today tells me $700 wont fly !

    [edit]Just read more of the faq too...portafilter options are interesting too.
    international shipping additional charge at 11.99 looks more like US to CA than worldwide[/edit]

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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    Its a pretty good idea, IMHO, adding a PID to a thermoblock, as theres no reason you shouldnt be able to get pretty awesome temperature stability out of it.. for what it is. Im even thinking of doing the same to an old thermoblock I have ::) Maybe an OPV for fun too...

  9. #9
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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    this has already been fully funded and then some if anyone is keeping tabs

    37 days more as well
    im thinking it will go up even higher (in terms of pledges)

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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    Wow, those pledges climbed quickly once it got onto Reddit.
    Dabbler - in the Reddit "chat" one of the developers told someone from Hong Kong that it would be $11.99 anywhere in the world.

  11. #11
    caffeinated lemoo's Avatar
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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    yeah reddit and gizmodo gave it a plug

    thats all you need if you have something on kickstarter really
    I had a laugh

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    Interesting new machine

    I cam accoss this, sounds good for the cost if it all works out OK. (US voltage though)

    Andrew* [smiley=smiley.gif]


    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espresso-machine





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    Re: Interesting new machine

    Sounds like an interesting project and might be just the machine to base at my in-laws for my annual visits to the US.

    They were expecting $20k in pledges and have $337k so far!

    For $200 I might chance it, otherwise I will be looking for a 2nd hand Saeco Via Venezia or Gaggia Classic instead.

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    Re: Interesting new machine

    Another CSer beat you to it with this thread-
    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1323689352/10

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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    Whats interesting me is this, from the FAQ:

    Were using a standard solenoid pump (Italian-made Ulka EX-5), but driving it with a DC pulse rather than mains AC. That way we can precisely control the flow rate by varying the pulse timing. This is better than modulating voltage because you can control of the pump over a much wider range. With voltage control, the pump only has a narrow range that it can work through, while with a variable frequency DC pulse at a fixed voltage the pump can be controlled through a much wider flow rate range.

    That is a very cool idea, and great use of the Arduino.

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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    THey are making a regularly priced 240v model, but are working on the 110v model first (unless you ordered one of the custom models at 1000 (bear in mind that includes a fairly up-market grinder - Mahlkonig Vario)) Ill give progress reports on the custom model...

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    ZPM Espresso

    Im not sure if this has already been posted on this forum?
    But there is a new company starting up with the goal to make an awesome PID temp and pressure controlled machine for not too much money. The company is ZPM and their machine is called the Nocturn. Im very much looking foward to seeing how it performs.

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    Re: ZPM Espresso

    Oh, here is the link to their site: http://zpmespresso.myshopify.com/products/nocturn-espresso-machine-glossy-finish

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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7F41444341280 link=1323689352/17#17 date=1331868749
    Oh, here is the link to their site: http://zpmespresso.myshopify.com/products/nocturn-espresso-machine-glossy-finish
    Oh dear, Looks like Price-Creep has snuck in, its now getting close to US$400 for the 120volt model, probably end up around the $500 mark to have it landed on these shores

    And Breville is likely bringing their PID thermoblock/coil machine to the market before the month is out. for a similar price.

    Oh, dont get me wrong, I welcome that these guys had an idea, but it really isnt going to match the expectations when it was on Kickstart

    Plus, Ive yet to see an actual Physical picture of one of these models (that isnt a proof-of-concept), For all their claiming about how itd be out by May 2012... they really do need to get their finger out (hmm, I wonder what happens if I install a PID on my cheapie sunny, would that work? I dunno)

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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpmespresso/with/6837339602/
    there is a link to their flickr account with a lot of photos.
    Yeah it does look a little... dodgey. That said, its not complete yet so it could be excelent. I definately wont be buying one unless it gets good reviews.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    Whilst I know stuff-all about electrical things, the PID idea appeals to me enormously in relation to any machine as my experience is that temperature is one of the key influences on the coffee quality. With my own machine, I have all the other factors covered but struggle with the temp.

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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    Im thinking I could do the same with my Breville 800ES, being an electronics technician and looking for ways to mod my machine to make better coffee after the non-pressurised filter purchase. The electrical schematic looks as if replacing the low temp thermostat input with the solid state relay output of connected PID would do the trick just nicely ;). Adequate PID kits are going for about AUD$40 on evilbay :). Problem is, what temp should I set it at and where should I place the PID temp sensor? Parts listing says low temp (thru portafilter) thermostat is rated at 96 deg C. Does the thermoblock exterior get significantly hotter than the water output temp during thru portafilter phase? Looking at Arctic Silver thermal adhesive for bonding temp sensor to thermoblock as close as possible to shower screen to reduce PID hysteresis variable, and given its good to >150deg C and high temp thermostat is rated at 140 deg C. Thoughts?

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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    Thoughts ??.. PID + Thermoblock ??
    The best response for temp control would be to put the TC in the water flow stream.
    however, its not the TC/PID response you need to worry about, its the heating element + thermoblock hysteresis ..time lag after switch on, before it actually changes the water temperature.
    Since the required heat input is directly proportional to flow rate, there will be some very significant transient or "step" changes, when the pump is started, pre infusion (?), puck expansion , etc.
    Maybe a big, stable, thermal mass in the thermoblock is better, but then it will respond even slower to PID control ???

    I think a big boiler is better !

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    Re: PID-Controlled Espresso Machine for less than US$300?

    But realistically, isnt a PID/SSR/thermocouple system (very simplistically) just a closely controlled via a feedback loop*"analog" thermostat (as opposed to a standard thermostat which is "digital" - ie. on or off), that compensates for hysteresis, variables and smooths the output power of the (again "digital") heater element of the thermoblock/boiler/HX? I was assuming this would just provide a more stable temperature control of the low temp (thru portafilter) phase.

    I still think Ill give it a whirl. It wont be pretty like the ones from the site sponsors, mind you. But, $40 odd as opposed to the $$$$ I would have to spend buying a Giotto - that I WILL get one day when the kids leave*home ::) - until then.... the Breville will have to suffice :(.

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    ZPM machine couldnt find a thread about it....any thoughts?

    Just came across a kickstarter project for a new coffee machine and I am curious as to peoples thoughts ... it is preorder stage for the US market with plans for the 240v market coming later... not sure it will be practical for me as I need an idiot proof do all ... but as I said I am curious ... it is a cute machine, but as to the rest am no expert so no idea really what their website really means, but they have more then exceeded their kickstart expectations... Just wonder what peoples thoughts might be on it...

    PID-Controlled Espresso Machine by Gleb Polyakov and Igor Zamlinsky ╗ Updates — Kickstarter

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    That is the same unit as referred to in the original post. Its been a while in the making.

    If you want something idiotproof, I'd suggest you forget about it.
    Looks interesting, but there will undoubtedly be issues post production. Not something you want if you are outside the US...

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    a little sunbeam 7000 for me it is.. but then I am pretty pragmatic and bought a brand new Braun food processor from Germany that is like 12yo out of production over the newer later and greater processors simply cause it had the best reviews anywhere.. (Before you call Aussie jobs... I tried to get it here first but Braun no longer really deal with outside the EU and they have been bought out by some crap company that dont care) But you do have to admit the ZPM Nocturne... even though not quite out of production is a pretty sexy looking machine...it will be tempting when it comes out in 240v for alot of shoppers esp is prices around what they promise .. think with changes etc + postage around $7-800aud if put in a realistic ballpark... most really dont come to forums like this and soo many are happy just to buy the latest delonghi or kitchen aid appliance just on looks or just on old long outdated reputation... Sheesh a family member of mine bought an $1800 dollar coffee machine simply on what they thought was looks+expensive must mean awesome... I just think it will be interesting to see in the next year if they get it off at least mail order ground... esp for those who try to put a french/ Italian accent on the words Target and Breville (OMG they sound dopey doing it! ) Wonder though if it is anywhere near the Gaggia/ Silvia how popular this little ZPM might get... expectations on the net seem pretty high

  28. #28
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    I think it would've been great for the kickstarter price... Not for what you get it for now.



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