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Thread: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

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    Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I have a Sunbeam 6910 espresso machine and almost all the posts on this forum say that the single filter is really bad, I must use the double. My question is, if I want a really good espresso, should I be aiming for 30ml or 60ml when using the double basket? If the answer is 30ml, then how long should it take to extract?

    Im finding that 30ml at 25secs (with the double basket) produces a bit of a burnt taste, and Im looking to improve :)

    Thanks for the advice in advance! :)

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    I too found myself asking much the same question.* Guess it comes from reading too many threads.

    Many posters talk about 30sec/30ml but very few mention number of doses/basket size. Discussion revolves around tamp, grind, grams per dose but make no mention of double/single.* Thats all perfectly acceptable but it leads to confusion amongst the half educated and we end up taking the wrong message.

    Its always 30sec and its* "30ml per dose" (normale).

    Aiming for 30/30 in a single cup with a double basket is somthing I mistakingly tried. Others will rightly wade in no doubt. Hopefuly they wont laugh too much.

    If you want 30ml with the double use two cups under the pf.

    Think of it as part of learning.
    dabbler

    BTW I use both baskets. Singles can work.
    [edit]And it dont know what 30/30 from double in single cup is called. Mini-ristretto ?[/edit]
    [edit]sorry ... mini- doppio ristretto[/edit]

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    I tend to call that a "double ristretto" myself, I know its probably not exactly right but well, Its harder to pour into two cups when youve a Naked Portafilter, Ive found.

    I wonder if anyone else does it the same way as me?

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Hmmm.
    just what is this way you speak of oh-naked one?

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 575251515F5641330 link=1323844620/3#3 date=1323854490
    Hmmm.
    just what is this way you speak of oh-naked one?
    I really should explain my process somewhat to folks one of these days, I tend to go for 18 grams of coffee into the double sunbeam filter basket for a 30 second (or thereabouts, depends on what the beans are doing) 30 ml pour into a 175ml cup

    I was under the impression that a ristretto was a 15 ml pull for the single basket, or have I made that assumption wrong? :-/

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    IMHO an espresso needs to be prepared from a single handle, in order for it to be classified as an espresso, or else youre producing a double ristretto - which is a different kind of beverage

    And Ive had excellent results producing 30ml in 30sec from both single and double baskets, from both domestic and commercial espresso machines

    But if I wanted to produce a double espresso (and for the record I would classify an espresso as a pour of between 20 and 30mls from a single basket) - I would use a double (or tripple) sized basket in a single handle, or else youre going to wind up with a different result

    Try this:

    Run a 30ml extraction from a single handle with a double basket

    And the run the same amount of coffee from a double handle also using a double basket

    Now do a side by side taste comparison - and what you are going to wind up with is two different products

    Why?

    Because the contents are under considerable pressure with a single handle - as there is only one possible exit point

    Whereas with the double handle there are two avenues for escape - so the puck will soak at a different rate, and, all things being equal, will run the shot faster - as there are more avenues for escape - thus producing a shot that is remarkably sweet, but not necessarily as full bodied, and (IMHO) without the same depth and complexity as an extraction run from a single handle

    Also, on the whole running 30ml from 30sec using a double handle saga - it ought to be eminently possible so long as you adjust your tamp and grind

    One of the less forgiving aspects of domestic machines is that theyre typically very sensitive to the above - so you will probably need to adjust your grind settings, especially if you are changing up from a single to a double handle n :o

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Therein lies the problems with shifting definitions.
    I dont think there is a fixed volume but maybe there once was an accepted amount akin to the accepted thirty ml for an espresso normale (sorry virtual keyboard once again plays up - cant get digits). Anyway I usually aim for around twenty ml for my ristretto and forty ml doppio.

    I think variations in volume have come about because of differences between the methods used to arrive at a ristretto. Add that to the trends that allow a shift away from things like third/third/third for a cappucino and I think you are allowed to called yours "ristretto" in your household even though its not the same as my ristretto in my house. A rose by any other name?

    If we didnt have the net wed be none the wiser and wed all be happy in our ignorance of others.


    However, right now Id choke on my pours at fifteen ml !
    dabbler

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Im confused by "handle" in this context. Do you mean number of spouts?

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 35313331223D3D580 link=1323844620/0#0 date=1323844620
    I have a Sunbeam 6910 espresso machine and almost all the posts on this forum say that the single filter is really bad, I must use the double. My question is, if I want a really good espresso, should I be aiming for 30ml or 60ml when using the double basket? If the answer is 30ml, then how long should it take to extract?

    Im finding that 30ml at 25secs (with the double basket) produces a bit of a burnt taste, and Im looking to improve :)

    Thanks for the advice in advance! :)
    Funny you write about this now...I had exactly the same issue/question/concern with my Silvia/Rocky setup recently. There is loads of practical advice in my thread on how to adjust the volume...but the core question of what is normal and right was not really addressed the way it has been here.

    So it seems consensus is that from a double basket you should be aiming for about 60mls in 30 seconds to make two espressos. And a single basket should pull 30mls in 30 seconds for a single espresso.

    To start with I was getting about 30mls in 30 seconds from my oversized double (not really a triple but bigger than the Rancilio double). I was stopping the extraction because I didnt want the pour to blond too much (resulting in bitter aftertaste). Ive since been watching many videos and it seems I might have been stopping the pour too early by most peoples technique. But the taste is all that matters in the end.

    I have been playing around with grind and tamp settings and have it out to about 45-50mls in 30s from the double basket, with good taste and good crema. A work in progress but heading in the right direction.

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 687A627D616C6A666F6F6C6C6E7C70090 link=1323844620/5#5 date=1323859341
    Try this:

    Run a 30ml extraction from a single handle with a double basket

    And the run the same amount of coffee from a double handle also using a double basket

    Now do a side by side taste comparison - and what you are going to wind up with is two different products

    Why?

    Because the contents are under considerable pressure with a single handle - as there is only one possible exit point

    Whereas with the double handle there are two avenues for escape - so the puck will soak at a different rate, and, all things being equal, will run the shot faster - as there are more avenues for escape - thus producing a shot that is remarkably sweet, but not necessarily as full bodied, and (IMHO) without the same depth and complexity as an extraction run from a single handle

    I think you may be confused; the spouts do not offer a relief of pressure nor does restrict the pour in any way. The double group handle with the two spouts does not offer another "avenue of escape".
    The differing flow rates with single and double baskets are caused by different designs.

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Wow, thanks for the responses! Very good reading material for me in this thread.

    Ive had a sneaking suspicion Ive bee doing it wrong every time I use my machine. Now I know thats true* :o doh!!!!

    So to summarise, I should be outputting 60ml in 30 secs with a double basket. This is going to completely change my methodology when I make my coffee this morning... cant wait to try and see the result!

    Thanks again

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 212527253629294C0 link=1323844620/10#10 date=1323896898
    So to summarise, I should be outputting 60ml in 30 secs with a double basket. This is going to completely change my methodology when I make my coffee this morning... cant wait to try and see the result!
    Heres an idea, if you only want to drink one espresso in the morning - run your double basket pour into 2 espresso cups. Drink one, then tip the other into an ice cube tray. Summer is coming, and it makes great iced coffees! I used up about 300g of coffee I had ground for camping once like this - much better than throwing it out or letting it go stale.
    Or start drinking doppios :D

    Matt

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 78594F555B5255525B7E457F535A5A59593C0 link=1323844620/11#11 date=1323899806
    Quote Originally Posted by 212527253629294C0 link=1323844620/10#10 date=1323896898
    So to summarise, I should be outputting 60ml in 30 secs with a double basket. This is going to completely change my methodology when I make my coffee this morning... cant wait to try and see the result!
    Heres an idea, if you only want to drink one espresso in the morning - run your double basket pour into 2 espresso cups. Drink one, then tip the other into an ice cube tray. Summer is coming, and it makes great iced coffees! I used up about 300g of coffee I had ground for camping once like this - much better than throwing it out or letting it go stale.
    Or start drinking doppios* *:D

    Matt*
    Well I had a doppio this morning, before I saw this message - but thats a great idea! I love iced coffees and frappe style drinks too, its great for summer. Although.. Im in Sydney and the weather has been feeling more like winter lately! :-/

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E5A585A495656330 link=1323844620/12#12 date=1323900397
    Although.. Im in Sydney and the weather has been feeling more like winter lately!
    We come from the other side of the mountains and get snow - so that sounds like great Christmas weather to us! None of this 40 degree carry-on :)
    But doppios are the go - a straight espresso is over too quick for me!

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5D4F574854595F535A5A59595B49453C0 link=1323844620/5#5 date=1323859341
    Because the contents are under considerable pressure with a single handle - as there is only one possible exit point

    Whereas with the double handle there are two avenues for escape
    I have never seen a handle with two avenues for escape, they have all had a single hole in the bottom regardless of the number of spouts attached.
    I thought the pressure was determined by the coffee puck and basket design rather than the handle


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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2721363D2720383A530 link=1323844620/14#14 date=1323917922
    I have never seen a handle with two avenues for escape, they have all had a single hole in the bottom regardless of the number of spouts attached.
    Too true. In an E61 arrangement there is the basket itself which creates the back pressure, then all the coffee flows out into the same collection point to exit the handle, then can either flow down a single spout or divide into a double. So it is the basket that creates the pressure - not the spouts.

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 484C4E4C5F4040250 link=1323844620/0#0 date=1323844620
    I have a Sunbeam 6910 espresso machine and almost all the posts on this forum say that the single filter is really bad, I must use the double. My question is, if I want a really good espresso, should I be aiming for 30ml or 60ml when using the double basket? If the answer is 30ml, then how long should it take to extract?

    Im finding that 30ml at 25secs (with the double basket) produces a bit of a burnt taste, and Im looking to improve :)

    Thanks for the advice in advance! :)
    Title of the Topic:
    "Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?"

    Answer:
    Yes, and it is simply a double strength espresso because you used a double portion of grinds to pour the one volume shot* ;)

    For normal single skin filters (ie no "funny business" with double skins or other devices in the group handles etc):
    If the single filter is half a double, there is no problem with that, wont require grinder re-adjustments, and will flow out same as a double. This is easily exemplified if you look at the standard filter supplied with the Silvia. It is half of the double.

    If on the other hand your single filter is similar to the deep commercial single filter found on most commercial and semi commercial machines in this market, it is NOT half of the corresponding double but 2/3 of the double. This does require a re adjustment of the grinder to get a similar flow rate to the double and of course, the resulting strength of the espresso is not the same as that made from a double.

    Your question about "if you want something really good"......only you can answer that. If you like a standard espresso, run with that. If you like a double strength, then run with that. Its up to you, even if it is my personal opinion you should try and get the very best coffee you can in the standard way before you go experimenting.

    It doesnt matter which configuration of filters you run with,* but to answer your question, it doesnt matter whether it is a single or a double, the "standard" pour time remains the same at somewhere between say, 20 to 30 seconds.* So you either produce a single espresso with a single filter in 20-30 secs, or you produce 2 espressos using a double filter in 20-30 secs.

    If you get a "burnt taste", it could be that your grind is too fine, or that your coffee blend doesnt like being turned into a double strength espresso, or that your taste buds dont dont like double strength espresso made using your modus operandi with your beans and your equipment set up. This is an individual thing, and you could try coarsening the grind a tad to see how that changes the result.

    By the way I think you will find that for any particular coffee, it is the grind setting / dose / and tamping pressure that ultimately creates the backpressure that governs the extraction and flow rate. This is also why two different baristas may extract a different brew using the same beans and equipment...its their technique that differs.

    FYI there have been enough machines built using unrestricted groups that made great coffee. How did they achieve the standard flow rate from the unrestricted groups......? Grind / dose* / tamp.

    In addition, all of the above demonstrates why it can be invaluable to take a lesson, where all these variables can be explained and demonstrated into tangible examples in front of you! Our clients always leave a coffee class with a smile on their face* :)

    Hope that helps,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Attilio

    Very helpful response, thank you :) I guess it is a subjective question, and to be honest I was starting to enjoy the "double strength" espresso I was making haha. But I just wanted to get a solid foundation of understanding first ie. the "right" way to do it, even if that isnt my preferred taste.. the general consensus cant be too wrong* ;D Thanks for the help

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    As you are starting to see there isnt any *RIGHT WAY*!

    As long as you use italian measures and times as a basis, then you should use a stale-ish, dark roast with a fair proportion of robusta, and run your machine hot.

    Otherwise just experiment until you get the result you want, and stick to it. ;)

    Greg

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 44716664546C716E626F67030 link=1323844620/18#18 date=1324037409
    Otherwise just experiment until you get the result you want, and stick to it
    Thats right to a point, but if you stop when you get to "something you like", you might never get to "something you love" 8-)

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Why are you calling to the portafilter, "handle"? :o

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Ciao Oton.

    In inglese, il portafiltro se chiama il "group handle". La manopola del gruppo!

    Gli americani hanno americanizato il termine portafiltro, mettendo in inglese lultima parola che diventa "filter"......porta - filter.......

    Ma e la stessa cosa:
    Porta Filtro = Group Handle = Porta-Filter

    Il perche......? Chi lo sa?

    Hope that helps,
    Attilio

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 756E75741A0 link=1323844620/20#20 date=1324170157
    Why are you calling to the portafilter, "handle"?
    Because it is a "Group Handle".

    The filter basket goes into the group handle that locks into the group head.

    Some of the planet use portafilter, most use group handle unless they are writting documentation for the US.
    ::)

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    (I need to type faster)... yeah, what he said 2 posts up!
    ;D

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    True espresso is neither timed nor measured by volume....... one must look past the constricting parameters of time and volume to create the essence of espresso.... :o

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Yes, and exponents of espresso especially newcomers, need to start somewhere so they know if theyre in the ballpark or not. The constraint of time as found in the various definitions of espresso, is merely a guide.

    There is no dispute on volume however. A 30 ml is a standard espresso. You can make it smaller or larger, but they are not a standard measure.

    If a barista is consistent, all is good. If he is not, then I am afraid all is no good.

    The total character in the brew needs to be well balanced and representative of what anyone may think an espresso should be.

    This is recognized in the current WBC rules, and I hope you will allow me to make the point that, the more we write about this, the more exceptions ("to the rule") respondents will wanna make, so I am going to stop there.

    Hope that helps.

    A.

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    The Zen art of espresso states that espresso can not be standardised....... :-?

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Since its seems no one has actually answered the question directly (unless I missed it* :) ). Here goes:

    The traditional Italian espresso is 30mls extracted from 7 grams of coffee.* Or the equivalent 60mls from 14 grams.
    Extracting less volume from the same amount coffee heads you in the ristretto direction, and extracting move volume heads you in the lungo direction.
    So in theory if youre extracting 60mls from you double basket that is filled with 18 grams of coffee then youre actually producing something in the middle of an espresso and a ristretto. But most here would just call it an espresso.* Or an interpretation of the espresso.... or the Modern espresso... or the Aussie espresso... or the New Millennium espresso...

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 544C5E454443414C59444B2D0 link=1323844620/27#27 date=1324526994
    Or an interpretation of the espresso.... or the Modern espresso... or the Aussie espresso... or the New Millennium espresso...
    Very well put! I agree!!

    The "Traditional Italian" method is but one method of espresso production, and in my opinion, outdated and not fully supportive of best results. Hense the reasons for my extremely ambigious answers. In my opinion, great espresso is only truely achieved by the understanding of the coffee and how to get the best from its constant changes. There is only one wrong way to extract coffee........and thats if the result in the cup tastes unpleasant.

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    My understanding (and Im by no means an expert) is largely as stated above, but in summary:

    An espresso shot includes a fair amount of liquid post-blonding and is ~30mL (presumably from however much coffee allows you to get that in about 30 seconds). Consider that a double basket for some (like me on the breville) is probably less coffee than a single commercial size basket.

    A ristretto is achieved by stopping the shot early, prior to (or just as) blonding, so that you collect most of the coffee oil, but with a minimum of water. This is going to be smaller volume than the ~30mL, but probably depends a lot on the coffee, grind, machine, tamp.

    So, if you use a double basket and the shot stops prior to blonding, I would consider it a ristretto (or maybe double ristretto), not an espresso. The increase in coffee oil and backpressure from increasing the dose will mean that blonding will occur later (or, more correctly, after a greater volume) so you might be able to pull a 30mL ristretto.

    So long as it tastes good, does it really matter what you call it? :)


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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1F2018333139520 link=1323844620/29#29 date=1324532890
    A ristretto is achieved by stopping the shot early, prior to (or just as) blonding, so that you collect most of the coffee oil, but with a minimum of water
    Nice one. Going by the blonding point does make more sense. 30mls from 7 grams is far too simplistic (especially for a Coffeesnob!).

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 322D2A2920362D2A3124292A3320450 link=1323844620/28#28 date=1324530038
    The "Traditional Italian" method is but one method of espresso production, and in my opinion, outdated and not fully supportive of best results
    Well said! Times have changed, the coffee we have access to now is of a far better quality and consistency of decades ago and over the past few years the trend has been leaning towards lighter roasting. From as far as I can tell the new wave of specialty coffee cafes/roasters are recommending to start at 20g in the basket, for 30g of espresso in 25-30 seconds and then adjust to taste from there.

    So in short, yes 30ml from a double basket is an espresso.

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4C474B4355404A434B4F4841260 link=1323844620/31#31 date=1325069656
    So in short, yes 30ml from a double basket is an espresso.

    So what is a ristretto? :-?

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4F44484056434940484C4B42250 link=1323844620/31#31 date=1325069656
    Well said! Times have changed, the coffee we have access to now is of a far better quality and consistency of decades ago and over the past few years the trend has been leaning towards lighter roasting. From as far as I can tell the new wave of specialty coffee cafes/roasters are recommending to start at 20g in the basket, for 30g of espresso in 25-30 seconds and then adjust to taste from there.
    I would argue though that whatever new wave cafes are making its not espresso. Like it or not the Italian Standard is the only formal standard we have for coffee and whether we like what that tastes like or not doesnt detract from the fact, as Yash eloquently posted above.

    I do think that its more useful to express the results in weights rather than volumes, as this at least ensures that extraction rations are similar and deals with the issue of varying crema.

    The espresso I make on my Lever is about 14.5g of coffee extracted to about 30g of coffee in the cup for a 50% extraction ratio. That usually means about 50ml of coffee and crema in the cup but obviously varies with the bean type and age. For those interested in a more esoteric and technical debate on this issue there are a number of threads on the Home Barista site that deal with it at length.

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7076616A70776F6D040 link=1323844620/32#32 date=1325081483
    So what is a ristretto?
    The Italian Standard for an espresso would be 15mls of extraction from 7 grams of coffee .

    So basically to make a ristretto instead of an espresso, grind finer so that you extract less the same amount of coffee during the standard 25-30 sec brew time.

  36. #36
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7A62706B6A6D6F62776A65030 link=1323844620/34#34 date=1325129054
    The Italian Standard for an espresso would be 15mls of extraction from 7 grams of coffee .

    You are directly contradicting the post I quoted which stated that 30mls from a double basket was an espresso, you are saying half that volume from a single basket is a ristretto ;D

    And you yourself stated further up the page
    Quote Originally Posted by 7A62706B6A6D6F62776A65030 link=1323844620/27#27 date=1324526994
    The traditional Italian espresso is 30mls extracted from 7 grams of coffee
    Just what "Italian Standard" are you all quoting? and why is it different everytime someone refers to it?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4E7149626068030 link=1323844620/29#29 date=1324532890
    A ristretto is achieved by stopping the shot early, prior to (or just as) blonding, so that you collect most of the coffee oil, but with a minimum of water. This is going to be smaller volume than the ~30mL
    Well I can get 60 mls from a double basket before it blonds, are you saying that should be a Ristretto rather than a double? :o

  37. #37
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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    While some of you blokes discuss the academics of Zen and the Art of Espresso Production from the sidelines ;), my own experience would tell me that more than 90% of eateries with espresso machines (you can call them cafes if you wish) have a less than satisfactory standard level of education of coffee production in their coffee machine operating staff (you can call them "baristas" if you wish). Many of them ruin the coffee no matter whose brand or blend it is, or how old it is, or if its a blend or an SO, or whether it had a roasted date on the back of the pack.

    Enter the good things for coffeesnobs and they are:
    a) coffee & coffee machine education abnd
    b) god forbid.....a standard to educate them to.

    Most cafes in our market are a concrete example of why a standard (any standard but a standard nevertheless) is required, atleast as a starting point, before anyone can digress.

    Oddly, it reminds me of a saying that I havent heard for a long time but is no less relevant now and it refers to passing your driving test. You have to know the rules before you can break em! meaning, learn the rules (the standard), or you wont pass the test, and only after that can go and do whatever you like.....!

    I would hazard one last probably unprovable private thought. I doubt the "espresso standard" as we know it was written by an Italian. As an ethnic group, I dont think they think like that as in to quantify something that is simply just part of their life. It was probably written by a "third party". The Italian themselves break their own rules, and if you read "the standard" it doesnt necessarily reflect what they do themselves in Italy.....the easiest thing to pick is the volume of the standard espresso. If you ask for an espresso or a coffee in Italy, you invariably get a ristretto.* So perhaps everyone here basically is in agreement, except for my part I will reiterate, you have to know the rules before you can break em. Most Ausie "cafes are a prime example of that, and its a worry...a real big worry....when you supply them with the coffee that they destroy nd in so doing, destroy your name in conjunction with theirs.

    And WRT the Italian standard. Their home market uses the small commercial filters...8 gram and 16 grams actual dose. And with that they make.....ristretto coffee.* Outside Italy most use the larger "export" filters. Depending on whether you updaose or not and the type of group on the machine, they can hold from 18 to 20 grams. This is because countries outside italy use a bucket full of milk in larger that std capp cups. They also dont use the Italian standard cappuccino rule which is 1/3 coffee 1/3 milk 1/3 froth. Here we virtually fill the cup with milk especially if its a lartey..... you have to use the larger filters / portions of grinds to get a similar character in the larger milk coffees, unless you want to accept paying for a milk coffee that only has 2/3 volume in it. In this market, I think not.

    So I think you will find, that "Italan std" and ausie std "espressos" turn out a similar character in the cup (disregarding use of different beans / blends) from using different quantities of grinds, owing to the different cup volumes required.

    Conversely, some new wave cafes that put out that they are trooly serious about coffee think its trendy to serve 10 ml portions when asked for an espresso. It renders the coffee unable to be judged on the full gammit of characters that really could have been found in the coffee, because it has been poured so short.

    Bring on education, and a standard.

    WRT blonding.....nothing to do with anything other than the available oils have petered out for that coffee, using those beans, that grind and that machine, now. Get someone esle to make the next coffee using all the same gear and beans, and it may well blond at a different point, and it is well enough known that you can run into a blond a little way and still make a good coffee...especially when it is used in milk coffee which is what most people drink here. Most people couldnt tell the difference if a blind test was run.


    Rgdz,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.* *

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    For most cafes that serve espresso-based beverages, the standards that need to be enforced are the very basics. We could start with how long the ground coffee can sit in the doser. Creating a proper dose, distribution technique, and adjusting grind would be a HUGE first step in many (if not most) establishments.

    But many of the managers/owners/chefs have not bothered to get the same education in terms of coffee and espresso that they have for baking and grilling. Some of you may remember the furor I created on Daniel Rogovs site concerning an article he posted on coffee which was a good 50 years out of date and contained so many falsehoods concerning coffee it was laughable. I asked one shop owner/operator before I became educated in the world of espresso why he was using a thermometer in the milk when he was steaming it. He replied that it was to make sure that the milk was hot enough to kill the bacteria.

    An acquaintance was a commercial roaster for a good 50 years. He wanted to institute a training program and certification for the baristas in the shops he supplied with little lapel pins (badges) for those who completed the course. I told him that most customers dont know the difference because the VAST majority of them order a hot milkshake so loaded with fat and sugar that they could be using automatic transmission fluid instead of espresso and they could hardly tell the difference.

    For most shop (nearly all shops) there is little motivation to spend the time (and $$) to train and educate a staff which is working for minimum wage, and the retraining of new employees with the rapid turnover in staff that most shops when they are already experiencing a rush at the usual times and are selling the coffee about as fast as they can make it. In other words, if the customers dont seem to care, why should the shops?

    My suggestion to him was to get the shops interested in customer appreciation nights. Bring in some live music, and between tunes, hand out free drinks, explain the origins, and let them sample quality beverages. Sure, that means training before hand, but the motivation (an interested customer base) to do so would be there.

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Yes the thing that causes the most trouble for coffee suppliers, from their eatery clients IS the inability to understand the relationship between the beans, the grinder, and the machine. Yes it is "adjusting grind" as you put it in a nutshell....and yes, that usually makes for a HUGE first step and advance in cup quality.

    The rest, out in the real marketplace where the dollars count, is as you say. Thankyou for the interesting & insightful post.

    A.

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 212A262E382D272E2622252C4B0 link=1323844620/31#31 date=1325069656
    So in short, yes 30ml from a double basket is an espresso.
    It should be clarified that you are referring to a double sunbeam basket with 18g in it (which is closer to a single basket in a commercial machine).

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Not sure what to make of that.*

    A standard commercial double filter in Australia (ie not the smaller italian market double filter), holds between around 18 to 20 grams depending on whether the operator updoses it or not, and also depending on the type of group on the brand of machine (ie ultimate position of shower wrt height of grinds in the filter).

    The corresponding oz market commercial single filter holds around 12 grams of actual grinds...updosing much more than that will stop it engaging into the group.

    Hope that helps.

    A.

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Really? I thought commercial double filters were closer to 28g?

    My mistake.


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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Nah, nothing bigger than the filters Ive referred to will fit in regular commercial group handles. You cant go bigger diameter, so the only way to go is deeper, but deeper filters hit bottom.

    Which is where if you have a group handle that has had the bottom cut out of it a-la "bottomless" or "naked" group handles, then you can fit in the normally unusable so called "triple" filters which will fit in a little more grinds than the others. They may look similar to a regular double filter however are not regular use or even a "double" filter in reality.

    You can also get other double filters with a profile that results in them sitting much closer to the sides of the group handle inner body and nudging the bottom,* but in many cases they dont work very well because they are still too big for standard group handles supplied with the equipment and dont sit well with resulting effects.

    Hope that helps,
    A

  44. #44
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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    The Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano defines the brewing conditions for an espresso as:

    Necessary portion of ground coffee 7 g 0,5
    Exit temperature of water from the unit 88C 2C
    Temperature of the drink in the cup 67C 3C
    Entry water pressure 9 bar 1
    Percolation time 25 seconds 2,5 seconds
    Millilitres in the cup (including foam) 25 ml 2,5


    Java "Yes there really is an Italian Standard" phile

  45. #45
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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Exit temperature of water from the unit 88C 2C
    Really?
    Thats 186.8 - 194.0 F. I have shown that 1 F. degree can make the difference in the cup between delicious and over-extracted rudeness on the palate. 90 +/-2 C. seems more reasonable. An 8 F. range in my experience seems ridiculous. It seems to me that they are quantifying a range that works with the coffees and machines with which they want it to work. Beyond that, seems to me that these temperatures are quite low.

    From those figures, I see them as a political organization creating a set of standards that best serves the needs of their country and the organizations that subscribe (as in join $$) .

    They state, "On July 6, 1998 the Italian Espresso National Institute (Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano) was founded, with the specific goal of safeguarding and promoting the original Espresso." The original Italian Espresso was cheap Brazil and Robusta. If that needs safeguarding, then they can keep their standards.

    It is the vast majority of experienced home baristas who will state that a superauto machine is a compromise on the best of days, and the fact that the Institute certifies a number of super-autos as meeting their standards shows that they have priorities other than creating the very best espresso possible.

    Just one guys ranted opinion... ::)

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Art or Science?

    I reckon, make it so you like it, and alls well.

    Espresso: A coffee that takes 10 minutes to prepare, 3 seconds to drink, and 2 hours to enjoy (after which you will have to have another one!).

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1C231B30323A510 link=1323844620/29#29 date=1324532890
    A ristretto is achieved by stopping the shot early, prior to (or just as) blonding, so that you collect most of the coffee oil, but with a minimum of water.
    Quote Originally Posted by 28302239383F3D30253837510 link=1323844620/34#34 date=1325129054
    So basically to make a ristretto instead of an espresso,* grind finer so that you extract less the same amount of coffee during the standard 25-30 sec brew time.

    Two different ways to achieve ristretto? I assume with different results in the cup?

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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 362E3C272621232E3B26294F0 link=1323844620/34#34 date=1325129054
    trentski wrote on Dec 29th, 2011 at 1:11am:
    So what is a ristretto?

    The Italian Standard for an espresso would be 15mls of extraction from 7 grams of coffee .
    Hi, that was a typo I meant:
    "The Italian Standard for a RISTRETTO would be 15mls of extraction from 7 grams of coffee"*


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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Quote Originally Posted by 465E4C575651535E4B56593F0 link=1323844620/47#47 date=1325260897
    Hi, that was a typo I meant:
    "The Italian Standard for a RISTRETTO would be 15mls of extraction from 7 grams of coffee"
    The Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano Standard doesnt talk about other drinks like ristretto, only Espresso. So I dont believe there is actually a standard for it.

    Traditionally the term was used in Italy to describe an espresso that was pulled early from a Lever machine, so I am not sure that there is any way of truly replicating the drink on modern automatic, pump driven espresso machines.

    Its probably developed into a trendy marketing term in pretentious cafes in Australia more than anything else, and for the coffee snob, we are probably better served by discussing the result expressed as brew ratios to allow meaningful comparison.



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    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Very interesting reading here!

    The coffee brewing ratios, above, make the most sense to me but do they contradict the opinions above?

    If we stick to the case of espresso and double espresso, dont those ratios above imply the following?

    Espresso: 7 grams of coffee, 14 grams (the same in mL) of espresso
    Double Espresso: 14 grams of coffee, 28 grams (mL) of espresso.

    If thats the case, where does this 30, 60 business come from?



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