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Thread: How much ground coffee for a double shot

  1. #1
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    How much ground coffee for a double shot

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    All you'd think I know better BUT does anyone weigh there ground beans prior if so what weight do younusevas I've seen 14 grams & 9 grams mentioned.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel View Post
    All you'd think I know better BUT does anyone weigh there ground beans prior if so what weight do younusevas I've seen 14 grams & 9 grams mentioned.
    Depends on the size of the basket and type of machine Noel, I use an 18 gram LaMarzocco basket in a Bezzera machine and it just so happens that 18 grams clears the shower screen nicely using the 5 cent piece test,
    (Correct depth of the coffee puck is a whisker away from the shower screen at lock in" suggest you try the 5 cent piece test, fill the porta filter, tamp and place 5 cent piece in the centre top then lock PF in, if the coin is pushed into the coffee reduce the dose a little, the object is to have a gap between the tamped coffee and shower screen approx the thickness of the 5 cent piece.
    Yes, I weigh my beans for every shot, I start with a clean grinder and empty hopper, weigh out 18 grams, dump into hopper, when finished grinding brush any bean debris into burrs from throat of hopper, dose, brush doser clean with small paint brush.
    Sounds time consuming, it's not, I can complete the task quicker than it's taken me to type this sentence (no smart remarks about being a slow typist please) others disagree with weighing, it works fine for me and gives me a high degree of repeatability, of course it wouldn't be practical in a commercial situation.
    Good luck with your journey.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel View Post
    All you'd think I know better BUT does anyone weigh there ground beans prior if so what weight do younusevas I've seen 14 grams & 9 grams mentioned.
    If you're going to grind the coffee, then weigh it, then get it into the filter basket you will know precisely how much stale coffee you have for your extraction. I don't mean to offend you but I think that type of procedure might be counter productive. After all, I'm guessing you're not measuring to the ml how much water you're using for the extraction?

    Lighten up - enjoy your coffee.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis View Post
    If you're going to grind the coffee, then weigh it, then get it into the filter basket you will know precisely how much stale coffee you have for your extraction. I don't mean to offend you but I think that type of procedure might be counter productive. After all, I'm guessing you're not measuring to the ml how much water you're using for the extraction?

    Lighten up - enjoy your coffee.
    Weighing works fine for me Dennis, as I said others will disagree, the process is fast, simple and the results speak for themselves.
    Having said that, I never used to weigh when I had the Silvia and was pretty happy with the brew I produced, guess things change.

  5. #5
    Senior Member coffeechris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis View Post
    If you're going to grind the coffee, then weigh it, then get it into the filter basket you will know precisely how much stale coffee you have for your extraction. I don't mean to offend you but I think that type of procedure might be counter productive. After all, I'm guessing you're not measuring to the ml how much water you're using for the extraction?

    Lighten up - enjoy your coffee.
    Ahh i feel better hearing these words, Lighten up - Enjoy your coffee. I read around the posts on here and start to think should i be weighing my ground coffee before extraction? Then i stop and think im consistent in what i do and the coffee i make taste nice to me and mainly my partner she likes it too.

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  6. #6
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeechris View Post
    Ahh i feel better hearing these words, Lighten up - Enjoy your coffee. I read around the posts on here and start to think should i be weighing my ground coffee before extraction? Then i stop and think im consistent in what i do and the coffee i make taste nice to me and mainly my partner she likes it too.

    Kinda like "Don't worry be happy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHFDa9efCQU

  7. #7
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    I think many of us may have obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) and coffee is the perfect addiction to feed our need to analyse and measure everything that isn't nailed down. If you find that type of behaviour enhances the coffee experience for you, well and good. On the other hand, if you are as you describe, making coffee that both you and your partner enjoy, then that is what is most important.

    I'm sure that over time you'll modify your technique or make other changes then realise your standards and level of satisfaction have changed. And I bet you that on that day it won't be because you're adding half a gram more coffee, or relying on a gauge that someone said is necessary for you to know what tastes right to you.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    I have a 'weighing routine', but purely for diagnostic purposes (I dose volumetrically). I grind into basket in naked portafilter, settle, tamp, then weigh the whole thing on my large digital scales (takes about 3 seconds). Put heated cup on scales and tare. Lock in portafilter and pull the lever, put cup under in portafilter, and when the extraction is finished, weigh the cup.

    If I get a cup that tastes a bit different (good/bad) I have a source of info on possible causes (i.e. for a given bean, my volumetric dose might have slipped slightly......or maybe i'm extracting a bit more brewed coffee than normal).

  9. #9
    Senior Member Stan's Avatar
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    If you have a set routine with filling and tamping you will find that on most occasions you will be within .03g in the basket. l did some weight tests on a random basis and - (yes I am anal about how I fill the basket and tamp) I found I was within the .03gms of 20gms each time. I am happy with that.

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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    My head hurts just reading about some of the 'routines' some people seem to think they need to go through to make a decent cup of coffee. I will take a 'free range' coffee made by a coffee artisan with a passion and feel for what they are doing over any coffee made by a 'technician' with OCD. A coffee made with love will beat cookie cutter coffees any day of the week.
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    Senior Member coffeechris's Avatar
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    I must admit as much as i don't want to stress perfecting it down to grams of coffee, i have found so much valuable information on this forum from the should do's and should not do's of making coffee. Like many things in life we can take on all the information and learn from it and add your own little twist to it so it suits you to how you like it. Coffee is one of the things which have many variables.


  12. #12
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Lots of argy bargy here from them dumping on us that weigh, but not much from the "artiste's" addressing Noel's original question.
    Come on people.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Lots of argy bargy here from them dumping on us that weigh, but not much from the "artiste's" addressing Noel's original question.
    Come on people.
    It was a two part question and I chose to address the first part... and I think I would prefer to leave the role of Reply Police to the Mods

  14. #14
    Senior Member NakiChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel View Post
    All you'd think I know better BUT does anyone weigh there ground beans prior if so what weight do younusevas I've seen 14 grams & 9 grams mentioned.
    I dose 22-24g (depending on the coffee and roast level) in my tripple basket when using a double spout to make two milk drinks ,using cups which hold a total of 140ml each , using cups any larger and the drink becomes to milky for my taste.

  15. #15
    Senior Member coffeechris's Avatar
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    I may have helped take this a little off track, to give Noel my opinion in simple terms. I dose by sight and I dont weigh the beans prior to grinding or after grinding.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    ...Lots of argy bargy here from them dumping on us that weigh, but not much from the "artiste's" addressing Noel's original question...
    Over reaction?


    Original question :
    "How much ground coffee for a double shot
    All you'd think I know better BUT does anyone weigh their ground beans prior if so what weight do you use as I've seen 14 grams & 9 grams mentioned".


    I believe the greatest majority of eqiupment operators dose volumetircally rather than by weight. The usual volumetric method of dosing up a coffee filter is well documented in these pages and while I hate to say it.....a search should drag up a few salient posts. Dosing a coffee filter volumetrically means you can use any machine, anywhere, with any type of filter (you blokes seem to like to call them "baskets") and you will always get it right. Dosing by weight, with the number of people around that dont fully understand either the equipment or that different filters exist in different sizes, can very often result in confusion and incorrect dose. The filters themselves, are called all sorts of things usually not the weight of coffee they actually take when dosed properly....Case in point, the regular Australian market double filter that actually holds somewhere between 18 to 19 grams (depending on the machine) when dosed properly, has very often been listed as a "15 gram" filter in various spare parts catalogues. What does that mean?????

    For those reasons especially considering my observation that a great many clients do not fully understand the equipment or the coffee, I favour the volumetric method.

    But none of what I have written actually addresses the question specifically.....and if the question is "How much ground coffee for a double shot" the answer from my point of view will have to be: whatever amount fills that filter to the correct level for the espresso principle to work effectively. It is very easy to do and the method can be found in the search engine of this site.

    Hope that helps.

    Attilio
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  17. #17
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee View Post
    Over reaction?


    Original question :
    "How much ground coffee for a double shot
    All you'd think I know better BUT does anyone weigh their ground beans prior if so what weight do you use as I've seen 14 grams & 9 grams mentioned".


    I believe the greatest majority of eqiupment operators dose volumetircally rather than by weight. The usual volumetric method of dosing up a coffee filter is well documented in these pages and while I hate to say it.....a search should drag up a few salient posts. Dosing a coffee filter volumetrically means you can use any machine, anywhere, with any type of filter (you blokes seem to like to call them "baskets") and you will always get it right. Dosing by weight, with the number of people around that dont fully understand either the equipment or that different filters exist in different sizes, can very often result in confusion and incorrect dose. The filters themselves, are called all sorts of things usually not the weight of coffee they actually take when dosed properly....Case in point, the regular Australian market double filter that actually holds somewhere between 18 to 19 grams (depending on the machine) when dosed properly, has very often been listed as a "15 gram" filter in various spare parts catalogues. What does that mean?????

    For those reasons especially considering my observation that a great many clients do not fully understand the equipment or the coffee, I favour the volumetric method.

    But none of what I have written actually addresses the question specifically.....and if the question is "How much ground coffee for a double shot" the answer from my point of view will have to be: whatever amount fills that filter to the correct level for the espresso principle to work effectively. It is very easy to do and the method can be found in the search engine of this site.

    Hope that helps.

    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.
    Well said Attilio, as usual right on the money.

  18. #18
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    I think it depends on your personality, but if you're just starting out with espresso and you're worried about dosing I think the best thing you can do is buy a load of beans, put aside an hour or two and start testing and tasting. I never bothered weighing and prefer to do things by feel. Make yourself taste every shot and you'll get better fast.

  19. #19
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    I recently bought a new grinder and for the first time in my espresso trip I weighed my dose.
    Freaked me out!
    What the heck was 26gms doing in a 21gm filter basket? And how come 22gms would fit in an 18gm?(see FC's post above).
    Was my coffee world about to implode?
    Nah, I just haven't weighed a dose since.
    Went back to my mantra instead............. Coffee is applied science, that is, science applied with heart and soul.
    Understand and accept the equations but concentrate on the feeling.
    I dose volumetrically the same each time and cut the shot at 12,15,20 or 25 seconds or any point in-between for a single or double or whatever I feel like.


    Footnote:
    I cup extensively, this is the only time I weigh the beans: 12gms coffee to 180 gms water but if you want to sell coffee to other people quality control/assurance is paramount and having an SOP is the only way to discern faults and roast/bean qualities.

    And P.S. I understand the need some people have to weigh everything but could hardly believe it when I found some people weigh their dose before and after pulling the shot!! The process becoming more important than the result........that leaves me cold.
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  20. #20
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    Sorry to bring back this week old thread to live.

    When filling the Izzo Vivi's stock double filter, it can take between 18g - 23g depending on dose technique (fill basket, tap-tap, fill again and chop-sweep; OR fill basket, tap-tap, fill again, tap-tap, fill again and chop-sweep). This is why I have a digital scale as a guide. If my ground coffee weight has exceeded 20g, I will re-dose again before tamping.

    Point 1: The weight of the ground coffee can provide a predictability measure whether you are going to fail the 5c coin test (without actually putting a 5c coin).
    However that being said, reading between the lines of what the guys are mentioning above why there are no hard and fast rules can be due to environmental and bean factors - moisture in the air, ground size and coffee bean type. There are some ground coffee, even at 20g, will fail the 5c coin test after tamping, due to the larger density of the ground beans, or there are some that fails due to the opposite - the tamp gets caught in the basket ridge before the optimum tamp weight.

    Point 2: In a simplistic sense, flow rate of extraction is affected by the following variables - tamp weight, ground size and weight of ground coffee in basket. If you can keep the first two variables constant, you will only have to worry about your ground coffee weight.
    This is ideal for me because you do not need to tinker with the grinder setting. With an Espro tamper on hand to maintain your tamping weight, there is only that last variable to be concern about - weight of ground coffee.

    In terms of flavor, it differs from beans to beans, and also sometimes roasts level. Like today, I was extracting my CS9 Sulawesi Blue at 20g, and it took about 50 seconds to extract 60ml. On other days, it was about 30 seconds on average. So I had to reduce the dose to 19g, and it came out beautifully on the naked PF with no channeling or early blonding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mirx View Post
    ......When filling the Izzo Vivi's stock double filter, it can take between 18g - 23g depending on dose technique (fill basket, tap-tap, fill again and chop-sweep; OR fill basket, tap-tap, fill again, tap-tap, fill again and chop-sweep). This is why I have a digital scale as a guide. If my ground coffee weight has exceeded 20g, I will re-dose again before tamping......
    Barista 101, rule 1.1
    ..keep your grind , dose & Tamp technique consistent and 100% repeatable. Do not vary it ( or change the sequence). !
    ..then you will not have weight variations.

    Every time you tap the PF to settle the grinds you effectively increase the dose.
    If you keep everything else consistent, you can actually taste the difference between one, two , and 3 "Taps" of the PF during dosing !

    I have never seen a pro (working) barista use a scale.

  22. #22
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    <snip>
    I have never seen a pro (working) barista use a scale.
    True, but...
    working baristas are very unlikely to change beans every shot or two...
    working baristas do 'calibrate' everything (including themselves) at the start of the day/shift...
    working baristas do more shots in a day (experience) than I would do in months...
    working baristas don't have the time to weigh beans...
    working baristas don't worry about sinking a few shots of their precious home roast...

    So I use scales.

    Greg
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregWormald View Post
    True, but...
    working baristas are very unlikely to change beans every shot or two... .. Nor are most home users.
    working baristas do 'calibrate' everything (including themselves) at the start of the day/shift...Not the size or volume of the basket though
    working baristas do more shots in a day (experience) than I would do in months... So they should be a good indication of how to do it correctly !
    working baristas don't have the time to weigh beans... Nor do they seem to find it necessary
    working baristas don't worry about sinking a few shots of their precious home roast...sink shots rarely happen if you are consistent with dosing

    So I use scales.

    Greg
    Are you actually suggesting you alter the weight of the dose depending on the roast or bean variety you are using ? (assuming the same filter basket)
    FYI, i use a variety of bean roasts, and sources, i only ever have to adjust the grind marginally, and i never change my dosing method ( no weighing).
    I used to have some unsatisfactory shots...until i stopped fooling about with different dosing ideas ( updosing, soft tamp, hard tamp,etc)
    Dosing consistently to the correct level in the basket is the key.
    I suggest you re-read Attilio's post above.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    Are you actually suggesting you alter the weight of the dose depending on the roast or bean variety you are using ? (assuming the same filter basket)
    FYI, i use a variety of bean roasts, and sources, i only ever have to adjust the grind marginally, and i never change my dosing method ( no weighing).
    I used to have some unsatisfactory shots...until i stopped fooling about with different dosing ideas ( updosing, soft tamp, hard tamp,etc)
    Dosing consistently to the correct level in the basket is the key.
    I suggest you re-read Attilio's post above.
    Taking yourself a little seriously there Blend! Greg has been around here for quite a while and is a very helpful font of knowledge, he knows what he's talking about and the proof is in the coffee he produces.
    Weigh don't weigh, who really cares, as long as your happy with the end result.

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    Thats right who cares as long as your happy with what you end up with.

    I use a hand grinder, so i grind per shot. Beans go into a plastic cup on scales, then into the grinder.

    I concentrate on keeping my distribution and tamp technique the same and adjust the grind accordingly.

    I know certain beans or blends will need a higher dose/weight than others to get the same distribution level in the basket.

    A gram either way can make quite a difference in extraction time and the final taste.

  26. #26
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    I would recommend reading Jim Schulman's advice over on HB "Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste". Reading this, combined with some hands-on experience with a local cafe-owner/roaster/barista here has really made me re-assess how I make espresso. I find that being able to adjust things in relation to taste is especially important in my case where I roast lots of small batches of different beans to different roast levels and so things don't stay the same for very long.

    Pete

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    [/QUOTE]Taking yourself a little seriously there Blend! ...[/QUOTE]
    Actually quite the opposite ..(but probably not expressed very well)
    ..i was trying to say that i used to "fuss" over the dose adjustment etc, but now i simply aim for consistent dosing by volume ( since being advised by a pro barista). If i get a poor shot now , its invariably because of a "bean" problem ( too fresh, stale, bad choice, etc)

    [/QUOTE]..Weigh don't weigh, who really cares, as long as your happy with the end result.[/QUOTE]
    Well you were the one who asked ! ..
    ..but if anyone is taking it a little seriously,..it would be those with a milli gram fixation. !

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve82 View Post
    I use a hand grinder, so i grind per shot. Beans go into a plastic cup on scales, then into the grinder.
    I know certain beans or blends will need a higher dose/weight than others to get the same distribution level in the basket.
    ..but if you are adjusting the weight to "get the same distribution level in the basket." ..then you are dosing by volume.., so the weighing is unnecessary ?

  28. #28
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    ..but if you are adjusting the weight to "get the same distribution level in the basket." ..then you are dosing by volume.., so the weighing is unnecessary ?[/QUOTE]

    If i had a electric grinder, yes i would not bother weighing and go more by what i see/feel. However for my levels of consumption and the small amounts of beans I roast this would be overkill, hence sticking to hand jobby.

    For example: i know a specific variant of KJM blend i roast works well when i put 16g of beans into the grinder at a certain setting.
    To get what looks roughly the same amount into the portafilter and around the same volume of extraction for Decaf Wow i need about 19g.
    At the 16g dose i would have to grind way to fine and for me it would start to taste over extracted.

    Without knowing the weight of the beans going into the grinder i would just be guessing every time as to how much i need to grind = waste or not enough.
    Takes about 2 seconds to weigh the beans and then i know where i am heading.

    My scales are accurate to 0.00g but i am not anal about getting it right on 16.00g

  29. #29
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    ( since being advised by a pro barista)
    .
    Ahhh I see, they always get it right don't they?


    Well you were the one who asked
    Wrong again, Noel asked the question.
    My last post on the matter.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve82 View Post
    However for my levels of consumption and the small amounts of beans I roast this would be overkill, hence sticking to hand jobby.
    I'm going to be very careful when referring to my hand-grinder in future.
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