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Thread: A basic question: What is the difference of a latte and a strong latte?

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    A basic question: What is the difference of a latte and a strong latte?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi Guys,

    I normally prepare a latte with 1 shot of espresso (12-14g). But the other day a friend of mine asked for a strong latte.. Just wondering, would that be just a double shot?

    What is normally done when you ask for a latte around here? 1 or 2 shots?

    Cheers!

    ps: Sorry if this is a basic question... I normally drink cortados in my home

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    strong latte is a double shot. a Single shot is standard. Some cafes put a double ristretto, (double half shot) in take away coffee to increase the strength relative to the extra milk.

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    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    I was interested in your mention of a "Cortado". I had not heard that term before and had to Google it to find out that it is the Spanish/Latin American name for a Piccolo Latte. I occasionally get blank looks from staff when I order a Piccolo - it would be anyone's guess what I would get if I ordered a Cortado.
    Some people like a high milk to coffee ratio - I have friends who order a 500ml 'coffee' with one shot in it. If I could tolerate a lot of milk I would ask for a double shot, but I really just drink coffee for the pleasure - if I want a drink I have a glass of water.

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    not a basic question at all, and well answered in the first part of post number 2.

    but .....I think I must be in the wrong forum because I normally drink vino rosso at home !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I was interested in your mention of a "Cortado"...... .
    Ahhh yes, that brought back memories of a distant past in Spanish roadside breakfast cafe,..
    Truck drivers would pull in for breakfast, order their "Carajillo" ..smoke a "Ducados" and drive off again fully refreshed !
    "Carajillo" = Espresso with a shot of brandy !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I was interested in your mention of a "Cortado". I had not heard that term before and had to Google it to find out that it is the Spanish/Latin American name for a Piccolo Latte. I occasionally get blank looks from staff when I order a Piccolo - it would be anyone's guess what I would get if I ordered a Cortado.
    Some people like a high milk to coffee ratio - I have friends who order a 500ml 'coffee' with one shot in it. If I could tolerate a lot of milk I would ask for a double shot, but I really just drink coffee for the pleasure - if I want a drink I have a glass of water.
    In some Latin American countries, a 'cortado' is essentially a flat white!

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    Ok guys, I am from Argentina so I guess I am supposed to know what a cortado is.

    Basically, its a single or double shot of espresso (depending on the recipients) with 1/3 milk. Although some say it can be 1/2 milk, but honestly that would be more like a cafe con leche (milk with coffee).

    you can have it in many different recipients: taza (porcelain cup), vaso (glass) and jarrito (small porcelain jug).

    Its is a drink from Spain, but since Argentina was a spanish colony (long time ago), guess we inherited that!

    Actually the word "cortado" would be "cut with"... so its coffee cut with a little milk.

    What I found interesting is that in Argentina they stick to the espresso rules... 8g a single shot and 14 a double. I like it better here

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    I haven’t heard of a "Cortado" before.

    When I started drinking macchiatos, due to me developing lactose intolerance, not many people selling coffee knew what they were or how to make them. Often I had to explain. Now at the places where I am game to order coffee they know what I want and often have macchiato on the menu.

    Are we going to hear more about Cortados and Carajillos?

    Barry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry_Duncan View Post
    Are we going to hear more about Cortados and Carajillos?

    Barry
    If we do,.... it will only be in trendy "Spanish " themed cafe's.
    Most of Aussie espresso culture is from Italian origin.

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    Another latin specialty coffee is " cafe con piernas" ! ...look it up

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    I had a laugh!

    Well, I don't know.. but this is my 90 ml morning "cortado doble"... if it were in a small ceramic jug it would be a "jarrito"

    20121003_082307.jpg

    Enjoy!

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    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    you could always order a long machiatto "topped up".

    when I asked the hell that was and it was described to me it sounded like a Piccolo Latte with extra milk, so a latte, but sounds cooler

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    Quote Originally Posted by trentski View Post
    you could always order a long machiatto "topped up".

    when I asked the hell that was and it was described to me it sounded like a Piccolo Latte with extra milk, so a latte, but sounds cooler
    Its a machiatto.. but with more milk... nothing compared to a latte though!

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    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherni78 View Post
    Its a machiatto.. but with more milk... nothing compared to a latte though!
    given that "machiatto" means marked or stained then a drink with more milk than a stain can't be considered a machiatto

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    When I order a salad roll I ask for "a hamburger with the lot, no meat. " (OK. I stole that from the Whitlams).
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    Barry-O’S,

    I believe that a hamburger without meat is a little like a cappuccino without coffee.

    Barry

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    Quote Originally Posted by trentski View Post
    given that "machiatto" means marked or stained then a drink with more milk than a stain can't be considered a machiatto
    Correct, but a machiatto is the most similar drink to a cortado. By no means is the same.

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    The actual meaning of Strong latte is this:

    Latte: one shot of espresso (30 ml) plus milk
    Strong Latte: Double ristretto (30ml of coffee, but only the strong oils extracted from a double shot) plus milk
    Double latte: 2 shots espresso (60 mls) plus milk

    That's why a strong is actually NOT a double, but most semi baristas wouldn't know the difference, most just do a double.

    As for Piccolo, it is generally accepted that it is 30ml espresso to 60ml milk, though that ratio doesn't keep the same name if it gets bigger, ie 90mls (triple shot) of coffee to 180mls of milk is not considered a large piccolo. Though next time I order in a cafe, I might have to try ordering a triple piccolo just to amuse myself.

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausnadian View Post
    The actual meaning of Strong latte is this:
    May I ask where you obtained such an authoritative definition that totally ignores the amount of milk used?

    The definitions you've provided are part of, but not the complete answers required to demonstrate competencies required for "prepare and serve espresso".

    1. A Caffe Latte is an espresso topped with silky-smooth milk, served in a 150m-220ml glass with 10mm of foam
    2. A "strong" coffee may be either 30-40ml of coffee (doppio ristretto) extracted using a double filter basket, or a doppio espresso 30-60ml extracted usinga a double basket.
    3. In regard to the piccolo, this can be either a 30ml espresso or a 15-20ml ristretto topped with silky-smooth milk, served in 60-90ml macchiato glass with 5ml of foam.

    Thanks to John Doyle's book Barista Techniques for the above.

    As for your triple piccolo - have you tried 30ml from a triple basket, with milk, etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis View Post
    May I ask where you obtained such an authoritative definition that totally ignores the amount of milk used?

    The definitions you've provided are part of, but not the complete answers required to demonstrate competencies required for "prepare and serve espresso".

    1. A Caffe Latte is an espresso topped with silky-smooth milk, served in a 150m-220ml glass with 10mm of foam
    2. A "strong" coffee may be either 30-40ml of coffee (doppio ristretto) extracted using a double filter basket, or a doppio espresso 30-60ml extracted usinga a double basket.
    3. In regard to the piccolo, this can be either a 30ml espresso or a 15-20ml ristretto topped with silky-smooth milk, served in 60-90ml macchiato glass with 5ml of foam.

    Thanks to John Doyle's book Barista Techniques for the above.

    As for your triple piccolo - have you tried 30ml from a triple basket, with milk, etc?
    oh dear. This thread was so simple.

    Is a strong coffee a doppio ristretto or a double shot?

    Answer: It depends on how the cafe wants to serve it and what the customer is going to expect.
    There is no actual industry standard. There is no book that can tell you without exeption.

    A barista is not unknowing if he gives a full double as that may be to the expectation of the majority of their customers.

    I serve strongs as a full double shot. I have many customers who get this regularly and would consider a doppio ristretto too weak. I also have customers who ask for stronger/strongish coffee or specifically ask for a doppio ristrettos. Thats how we do it. I'm sure there are other places who would have their customers specifically ask for a double shot. Thats fine too.

    There is no right or wrong answer when you are a barista. There is only making the customer a coffee that they like or dislike.

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    My thoughts have always been to look at the relative proportions of the "regular" drink and then adjust (if required) to maintain them as closely as possible.

    Eg: A Capp has often been defined as roughly 1:1:1 espresso/milk/microfoam- by height of cup- not volume

    To make a strong capp, you wish to maintain the relative proportions of the drink- therefore a dopp ristretto. In a big cap, you'd use a double and to do a strong big capp, you'd actually require 2 group handles to execute and maintain proportions.

    I agree with others that most operators suit themselves- based on their education/understanding or lack thereof. It's a veritable lucky dip...

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    I like what Ausnadian in saying - it actually makes sense & thanks for the education! But, my thoughts are that people don't really know what they are ordering when they say a strong or a double 'whatever'. Not in my part of the woods anyway. (Although maybe I'm kidding myself?!) I think that they just want a stronger coffee than what they have had before and have heard people use the term 'double'......Your definition is food for thought for me - maybe I will adopt this....?

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muppet_man67 View Post
    oh dear. This thread was so simple.

    Is a strong coffee a doppio ristretto or a double shot?

    Answer: It depends on how the cafe wants to serve it and what the customer is going to expect.
    There is no actual industry standard. There is no book that can tell you without exeption.

    A barista is not unknowing if he gives a full double as that may be to the expectation of the majority of their customers.

    I serve strongs as a full double shot. I have many customers who get this regularly and would consider a doppio ristretto too weak. I also have customers who ask for stronger/strongish coffee or specifically ask for a doppio ristrettos. Thats how we do it. I'm sure there are other places who would have their customers specifically ask for a double shot. Thats fine too.

    PS. Whenever someone came into the cafe I used to own and asked for a 'strong' coffee, I used to ask how they would describe the word 'strong'. It confused most people. Rarely did they ultimately describe 'strong' as a big belt of coffee. In the vast majority of cases, they agreed that 'strong' meant that they would be able to experience "a pleasant, long-lasting flavour."

    There is no right or wrong answer when you are a barista. There is only making the customer a coffee that they like or dislike.
    Hello mm

    I don't understand why you decided to quote me for your 'oh dear...' remark. After all, it wasn't me who came up with non-supported, incorrect info.

    "Prepare and Serve Espresso" is a nationally accredited and recognised course here in Australia, and the information I provided above, comes from a text used nationally as reference material for the course. If you do the course these are the standards that will be taught and expected of you.

    Because the cafe you work in chooses to do it another way is up to the owner. I don't dispute that but it's wrong to infer that the reason you do this is because there is no industry standard. I just hope every barista who works at your place does it the same way.

    "There is only making the customer a coffee that they like or dislike." Nicely said!

    If you scratch under the surface and ask your customers how they would describe the word 'strong' you will find they don't want a coffee that is like an assault on their taste buds, but rather, a pleasant flavour that doesn't dissipate quickly but lingers for 20 minutes or more.
    Last edited by Dennis; 6th October 2012 at 06:36 PM. Reason: additional info

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    If you scratch under the surface and ask your customers how they would describe the word 'strong' you will find they don't want a coffee that is like an assault on their taste buds, but rather, a pleasant flavour that doesn't dissipate quickly but lingers for 20 minutes or more.

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    I usually just ask for a latte on a double ristretto base....reduces room for confusion, and I generally get something close to what I'm after.

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    I am really very tempted to comment on this thread, but I fear that Shakespeare has beaten me to it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    I usually just ask for a latte on a double ristretto base....reduces room for confusion, and I generally get something close to what I'm after.
    I went to a fairly well known cafe in Sydney and asked for exactly that - a latte on a double ristretto base. The response - "So you want a weak latte?". Fortunately, the barista overheard and told the waiter that she knew what I wanted.
    Last edited by flynnaus; 6th October 2012 at 07:52 PM.

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus View Post
    I went to a fairly well known cafe in Sydney and asked for exactly that - a latte on a double ristretto base. The response - "So you want a weak latte?". Fortunately, the barista overheard and told the waiter that she knew what I wanted.
    Yeh, it's a bit trickier if ordering from a table. I ordered a ristretto at a cafe after a lunch meeting and the poor young lass replied 'I'm sorry I don't think we do that'...so I asked her to give me 1/2 a double espresso and quite a nice (near) ristretto came back.

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    I wasn't talking about different sizes, but more of the standard latte glass you get in most places. I think what people don't get, is that if every barista had the same standards, then ordering wouldn't be such a confusing time. Strong should mean strong, double should mean double. Like Chris said, then the barista could adjust amount based on the volume ordered.
    So if a large take away normal latte = 2 shots, then a strong large take away would be two double ristrettos. So amount stays the same. Milk will always be a variable as different cups will always = different milk proportions, and not many would accept a large cup with the tide out because the barista says it's "in proportion" with the amount of espresso
    This is how I ran my machine, and I had very few complaints. In the end, if the barista stays true to the way they make it, the customer will be able to say "that double was a bit strong" and next time will confidently be able to order a strong instead.

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    A basic question: What is the difference of a latte and a strong latte?

    Aaaah yes, the snobbery of it all... :tic

    I'm a tradie and I spose a bit 'rough round the edges'...

    I don't know for how many years I used to stubbornly order a 'cup of chino' somehow believing 'chino' was the Italian word for coffee...

    And for the missus it was a 'cup of chino'- in a glass... Cause that was just a girlie drink...

    It took me years and years to actually order a 'Latte'....

    Now, you want me to order a Piccolo eh?

    Yeah right... And it's gonna be made by a real short guy in a green suit wearing a pointy hat and a gold ring on his left pinkie finger and a diamond set into his right front tooth?

    What on earth will they come up with next?

    :can't wait

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    Hahahahaaaaaa!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol_Grumpy View Post
    Aaaah yes, the snobbery of it all... :tic

    I'm a tradie and I spose a bit 'rough round the edges'...

    I don't know for how many years I used to stubbornly order a 'cup of chino' somehow believing 'chino' was the Italian word for coffee...


    You're lucky you ordered in person and didn't send one of your kids off to get it. They might have come back with two pairs of smart casual slacks.

    Cheers
    BOSW

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    I just love that Ol grumpy - that is gold! And yeah, all this terminology can be funny....but at the same time I find it fun. I'm still with you Ausnadian - I like your logic & with coffee you HAVE TO BE really clear about what & how you are making it - thats how people learn what to order and what it is that they are ordering. Ol grumpy, you might be surprised - you might just enjoy a piccolo on a ristretto base!

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    I can cope with all the many variations mentioned here except the so called "long Macchiato".
    The amount of milk in a Macchiato is so small (i.e. - stain) or not present except as froth - that I simply cannot see how you can have a "long Macchiato" using milk.
    To my mind such a beast could only be a Piccolo Latte or small Flat White of some description.
    I could maybe imagine that a long Macchiato could be interpreted as a Macchiato with added hot water - served in a 100ml glass or cup. So in other words - a small 'long black' with some froth on top. I have never seen it served that way however.
    It really annoys me when I order a Macchiato and I am asked whether I want a "long Macchiato".
    If I had a cafe I would have a sign that said "Please do not order a long Macchiato - there is no such thing - ask for advice".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I can cope with all the many variations mentioned here except the so called "long Macchiato".
    If I had a cafe I would have a sign that said "Please do not order a long Macchiato - there is no such thing - ask for advice".
    I was a bit perplexed when I ordered my first machiato and was asked whther I wanted long or short. A long machiato seems to be not so much a piccolo latte but a double shot of espresso (ie 45- 60 mls) with a dash of milk.
    Among other variations I've had on the machiato are a ristretto with a dash of textured milk (poured as a mini-heart and even a mini rosetta), a short black with a dash of cold milk (the milk sank to the bottom and looked just a short black), a piccolo latte, a mocha and a puzzled look.

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus View Post
    I was a bit perplexed when I ordered my first machiato and was asked whther I wanted long or short. A long machiato seems to be not so much a piccolo latte but a double shot of espresso (ie 45- 60 mls) with a dash of milk.
    Yes, that has been my experience with the 'long' mac. Places I frequent serve the 'short' as a single shot in a small espresso cup, and the 'long' in a piccolo glass....but is normally a double shot with normal extraction (up to 60 mls). Tends to be an 'after dinner' coffee for me. Spent some time in Paris where this was the only thing I could face consistently (except it's called a 'noisette' rather than 'machiatto')....the dash of milk covered up the predictable faults in the coffee.....and their attempts at latte/flat white style drinks were uniformly awful.

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    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    My first 'long Macchiato' experience was as a take-away from one of the best Brisbane cafes. I dashed out during the morning coffee break from a conference (to avoid the 'hotel coffee') and ordered the first thing that I saw on the cafe menu - which happened to be the 'long Macchiato'.
    I received a medium sized take-away cup and bolted back to the conference. On opening I found I had a reasonable facsimilie for a normal sized Latte.
    "Hmmmm...." I thought, that is not what I was expecting.



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