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Thread: Tighter shots?

  1. #1
    Senior Member brokenvase's Avatar
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    Tighter shots?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I spoke to a local barista who made me awesome coffee and he taught me to try bringing my triple basket to 45s or more for 2 cups of Ristretto.

    Yesterday I tried 26g of coffee stopping at 60s yielding 30g of espresso. Made 2 flatwhites with it.... Awesome!

    Today I used my double VST basket 18g of coffee pulled a 33s Ristretto shot and again made a flatwhite even more awesome!

    You see, usually I would tip it out mentally thinking I'd burnt the coffee. The gauge on my BDB would have also showed 10-10.5 bars. Including the times. all indications of over extraction. But this seems to be not the case. I am still not an expresso drinker so I can't really tell if I have indeed burnt it. But it tastes great in a milk cup. Flavours punch through very well and no bitter aftertaste.

    Anyone experiencing similar? Or am I going mad???

  2. #2
    Senior Member insomnispresso's Avatar
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    I think the slow flow rate makes it take longer to overextract, if you tried to pull the same weight/volume on the ristretto as an espresso you might be telling a different story! Anyway you're not going mad but personally I prefer to keep the pour time <45sec for a ristretto

    Not sure the pressure change is a good indicator on its own, other than perhaps it becomes more likely to cause channeling? Just out of interest do you use a bottomless PF?

  3. #3
    Senior Member brokenvase's Avatar
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    Tighter shots?

    Quote Originally Posted by insomnispresso View Post
    I think the slow flow rate makes it take longer to overextract, if you tried to pull the same weight/volume on the ristretto as an espresso you might be telling a different story! Anyway you're not going mad but personally I prefer to keep the pour time <45sec for a ristretto

    Not sure the pressure change is a good indicator on its own, other than perhaps it becomes more likely to cause channeling? Just out of interest do you use a bottomless PF?
    I use a naked PF for my double. And have the two spout for my triple basket.

    Basically I want to use the double to do one cup of coffee and when required use the 2 spouts to make 2 cups

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    Broken, I donít think you are going mad, just having fun playing about with your BDB.

    I am constantly trying different origin brews of different ages with a great variety of results.

    I am getting beans ready as I am taking my BDB to a Christmas party on Sunday. The party goers wonít be able to complain as they are getting my coffee for free.

    I expect that most of them normally drink instant at home or at the best, filtered pre ground supermarket coffee.


    Barry

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    While talking about "tighter shots", I was forced to use some supermarket purchased Vittoria last week and I just couldn't get the shot to drizzle through - about 5 bar was max no matter what I did with the grinder. In frustration I gave the handle a couple of bashes on the bench like you would with steamed milk to flatten it and what do you know, a good 9-bar pour. I have never had this problem with other beans.

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    Coffee+carbon=heaven Mono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteman View Post
    I have never had this problem with other beans.
    And in that is the [main one anyway] secret of good coffee.....FRESH is best :-) As the oils in the beans have not evaporated away

    Steve

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    Senior Member Pavoniboy's Avatar
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    I'm finding with a lot of beans I'm enjoying a 40-45 sec pour (including 7sec preinfusion) espresso shot from my 18g vst basket on the BDB. Occasionally a bean comes along where its better to run it a little faster over 30 secs, but with most I'm preferring the tighter shot.
    This is through my naked handle and it looks great glooping along the bottom of the basket forming in a nice tight pour from the centre.

  8. #8
    Senior Member brokenvase's Avatar
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    Tighter shots?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pavoniboy View Post
    I'm finding with a lot of beans I'm enjoying a 40-45 sec pour (including 7sec preinfusion) espresso shot from my 18g vst basket on the BDB. Occasionally a bean comes along where its better to run it a little faster over 30 secs, but with most I'm preferring the tighter shot.
    This is through my naked handle and it looks great glooping along the bottom of the basket forming in a nice tight pour from the centre.
    So I'm assuming by 40-45s you mean a full double espresso shot and not a Ristretto?

  9. #9
    Senior Member insomnispresso's Avatar
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    Well as long as the volume is equal or less than my arbitrary value of 50ml, he can probably call it a ristretto

  10. #10
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    When dialling in a new bean I occasionally get some very slow pours. Drink them as ristrettos (I'm usually intending to make a latte). Generally very good, with smoother feel in the mouth. I tend to make my lattes with a double ristretto base, but allowing the first few drops extracted to go to the drip tray. Some old Italian bloke suggested it to me, and I reckon it makes many beans a touch smoother (particularly Africans that I might have roasted 15 seconds too long).

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    Never heard of leaving the first few drops behind, thats where you sugars come out, thats what i want in the cup haha.

    You can play around with "the formula" heaps and get great tasting coffee, just with different flavor profiles.

    I've run 45 second shots that taste great (i hate wasting coffee) and 25 second shots that taste terrible (not from bad pours, just no body developed) so the "formula" is more of a guideline.

    Although what gets confusing is when you start saying one is a double espresso or tripple ristretto bla bla bla

    I just say i put 20g in, pour for 30s getting 45ml and drink it all


    Scottie Callaghan details what he thinks is best for each SO he is roasting at the moment, interesting read to see how much he varies for different beans
    http://scottiecallaghan.blogspot.com.au/

  12. #12
    Senior Member brokenvase's Avatar
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    Tighter shots?

    I'm sorry maybe I'm too much of a noob... I understand espresso as a shot pulled to "blonding". And a Ristretto is stopped short of that. Usually 2/3 of a way through what would normally blond. So kind of stopped when its starting to turn brown.. I think...

    Regardless of these terms, I'm still keen to understand which type of pull you do... So depending of how much of the brown to blond stuff you want, it does make a difference in the time logged and obviously the taste. So I was just curious as to when you "stop" the shot, what color was it? Was it still thick? Or starting to blond and "squiggle"?

    Pardon my funny use of words if not pro-sounding....

  13. #13
    Senior Member insomnispresso's Avatar
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    Beyond trying to pour a ristretto or espresso you can manipulate dose, grind, pour time and volume to tweak the flavor profile.

    It becomes about trying to bring out more sweetness, more nutty notes or whatever might be the case. There is no magic formula which will give you the best pour for every bean, they are just guidelines.

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    I'm a newbie to this,so I'm trying to dial in new beans. What's the best way to determ

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    sorry computer problems!
    how do I determine if I need to adjust my grind or dosing technique?

  16. #16
    Senior Member brokenvase's Avatar
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    Tighter shots?

    My 2 cents:

    - I measure my dose visually with a scoop. I don't really trust my Smart Grinder's IQ.
    - I level off the coffee on the PF to ensure the right dose again.
    - I practice my tamping to ensure its a consistent pressure.

    If I did all the above consistently, all I play with the dial is the grind size.

    Then next I have to decide if I want to try a Ristretto (ie. stop shot as soon as it turns milk chocolate brown) or espresso (ie. stop shot as it blonds and starts wiggling)

    The topic here then is my way of surveying the timing of this. Traditionally I was taught to bring everything to Blondie at 30s... Now I'm discovering a whole new world of possibilities!

    Good luck on your journey! And welcome!

  17. #17
    Senior Member insomnispresso's Avatar
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    If you pick somewhere in the middle, ie double of <=60ml in 30s you can use that as a starting point. Ultimately the end result is the only part which really matters.

    As long as you're not getting gushers which channel or pull too much volume of water through the puck and get bitter/burnt tastes, you'll probably get something drinkable and from there it's up to you to decide what tastes best!

    I had a relevent experience this morning - I was having a first shot of a new roast of Ethiopia Ghimbi, the 16g pour produced a very fast shot of 60ml in <20s weighing around 31g. I tried it anyway, the shot was mainly characterized by what I can only describe as a complex woody flavor and a gorgeous caramel sweetness. Very unusual for this bean as none of the earth, spice, cherry was present! It is a faster roast profile but its very different to what I've seen up to this point, I'd put it down to the way the shot was pulled!

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    BrokenVase another thing to consider is that your tripple basket compared to your 18gm vst will require a much courser grind to get similar flow characteristics to the VST.

    By using a courser grind you actually need to have a much greater brew time to get an equivalent extraction.

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    Senior Member askthecoffeeguy's Avatar
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    Everyone has their own interpretation as to what constitutes an espresso or a ristretto but for me I'm aiming for 30mls from 30sec as a general rule of thumb - although, with my work machine especially, I can run an espresso to a minute or more without blonding or burning it due to the flow restrictors in the machine which slow the extraction rate down

    And for a ristretto I up dose and fine the grind using a restricted pour of ten to 15mls max - and double that for a double espresso

    Personally I would never run an extraction past the 45ml mark as I don't like the flavours it produces - if I want longer I simply run another shot and pop it on top!

    Acg

  20. #20
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    Great read about the chemistry of coffee and some aspect of extraction in ristreto and espresso: Al's Rule

  21. #21
    Senior Member brokenvase's Avatar
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    Tighter shots?

    Quote Originally Posted by askthecoffeeguy View Post
    Everyone has their own interpretation as to what constitutes an espresso or a ristretto but for me I'm aiming for 30mls from 30sec as a general rule of thumb - although, with my work machine especially, I can run an espresso to a minute or more without blonding or burning it due to the flow restrictors in the machine which slow the extraction rate down

    And for a ristretto I up dose and fine the grind using a restricted pour of ten to 15mls max - and double that for a double espresso

    Personally I would never run an extraction past the 45ml mark as I don't like the flavours it produces - if I want longer I simply run another shot and pop it on top!

    Acg
    Thanks for this. It makes a lot of sense!

    Not sure if the BDB works the same, but for my current blend, I find that I'm getting excellent milk pours in a triple basket running out 60mls into 2 cups (30ml each) with a shot time of 60s (infusion included)

    I just keep having scary thoughts that it might be burnt. But I haven't tasted any hallmarks of burnt coffee yet. It tastes good.

    However, what I also found is using a double basket for a single 40ml shot stopping at 25s. I'm getting an even better taste! Could be VST, could be more coffee in one cup. I don't know. But for quick turnaround, I'll use the triple basket. For a slow enjoyment, I'll use the naked PF with double VST. only issue is I have only one grinder! Wasting coffee for redialing...

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    using a double (18-22g) basket for a 40ml drink in 25sec would probably be something like a double ristretto. if you weigh your shots and divide the grams of coffee used by the grams of shot produced you will most likely get a brew ratio of over 60% (40ml shot might weigh 28g - 18g(coffee)/28g (brew) = 0.65 or 65% brew ratio) which puts you in ristretto land and would account for more intense and sweeter tasting shot. for me burnt flavour is only one of the signs (and often an extreme one - especially with dark roasts) of over extraction. a more subtle rise in bitterness and caramel flavours is an early indication of over extraction but those would also make the coffee stand out in milk drinks and might give you great results there.
    there are a few great articles in home-barista.com, about different aspects of extraction over time, brew ratios, and time of extraction for different drinks. worth checking out.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Pavoniboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokenvase View Post
    So I'm assuming by 40-45s you mean a full double espresso shot and not a Ristretto?
    Sorry it took a while to reply.

    I usually pull about 50mLs from the 18g VST in that time. However, I sometimes also reduce the volume of espresso for some beans (at about same flow rate, so less time). Other beans I increase the flow rate. I find I'm playing with all variables these days (except dose now that I think about it) to bring out different aspects of different beans.

    I guess it's the old saying 'start with 30/60mLs in 30 secs' but once you get that well, start playing and see what you like.
    brokenvase likes this.



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