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Thread: Whose Espresso Is Better:

  1. #1
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Whose Espresso Is Better:

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Even though the title is a little confusing,

    Whose Espresso Is Better: Third-Wave Cafés or Traditional Italian Espresso Bars?

    Whose Espresso Is Better: Third-Wave Cafés or Traditional Italian Espresso Bars? | Serious Eats: Drinks
    I thought espresso was espresso while third-wave referred specifically to the likes of pour over or siphon

    Regardless, it's an interesting article.
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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    I wouldn't necessarily classify a cafe that offered pour-overs / aeropress as '3rd wave'. To me, it's these clowns who insist on light roasting their espresso-based drinks (regardless of whether they serve the alternate brew methods). If the US is anything like London, many of the traditional Italian places (not the better ones) opened up a niche for the 3rd wavers by using a heavy dose of poor quality robusta (ground into the doser yesterday) in dirty, hot-running machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    I wouldn't necessarily classify a cafe that offered pour-overs / aeropress as '3rd wave'. To me, it's these clowns who insist on light roasting their espresso-based drinks (regardless of whether they serve the alternate brew methods).
    I agree... so many stereotypes jump into my head...

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    3rd wave was being used as a term long before filter coffee was being offered and the super light espresso roasts that have become common. For me 3rd wave just means moving beyond the fixed recipe, exploring methods and origins and roasts, following your senses. 3rd wave is really just about trying to progress with coffee, to learn and understand it at a deeper level. More scientific, less voodoo (some people call voodoo art, or touch/feel)

    No contest imo.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muppet_man67 View Post
    3rd wave was being used as a term long before filter coffee was being offered .
    Filter coffee was developed in 1908 by Melitta Bentz Melitta Bentz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I understand what your getting at MM and tend to agree.

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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muppet_man67 View Post
    3rd wave was being used as a term long before filter coffee was being offered .
    Filter coffee dates back to 1908 courtesy of Melitta.

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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    hmmm... brilliant minds (or should that be sceptical minds?) think alike

  8. #8
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    hmmm... brilliant minds (or should that be sceptical minds?) think alike
    I ain't a sceptic, just don't believe everything I read or hear.

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    Did you ever try and buy it in a cafe between 1970 -2007? I was referring to it being offered in Australian cafes (aside from Mcdonalds) alongside espresso in more recent times. My first hospitality job was in a bakery on Acland street. I remember every now and then we would get an American tourist looking for "Normal Coffee" and the only place I knew of that did it was Macca's.

    Loads of options now. First filter coffee I ever saw sold in specialty coffee was a clover at St.Ali in 2007 (that machine went to Brother Bada Budan soon after) Might be a bit off topic but can anyone think of anything earlier?

  10. #10
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muppet_man67 View Post
    3rd wave is really just about trying to progress with coffee, to learn and understand it at a deeper level. More scientific
    And then every now and again you'll hear something like "you need beans that are only a few days old where the oil is still inside the beans and hasn't evaporated" and realise how much of this "science" is just parroted knowledge lacking understanding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    And then every now and again you'll hear something like "you need beans that are only a few days old where the oil is still inside the beans and hasn't evaporated" and realise how much of this "science" is just parroted knowledge lacking understanding.
    Would you consider it "parroted knowledge" to measure extraction yield by weighing the shot rather than measuring with a shot glass? Just one example.

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    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muppet_man67 View Post
    Would you consider it "parroted knowledge" to measure extraction yield by weighing the shot rather than measuring with a shot glass? Just one example.
    Not if someone understands why​ they're doing it.

    *EDIT*

    My problem isn't with bringing science to coffee. I'm probably as big an advocate of that as anyone.

    My problem is people spouting scientific nonsense and poisoning the minds of the plebs who don't know any better who then repeat it and entrench the BS as "common knowledge".

    I read forums. A lot. More than is healthy, if I'm honest. I've never seen a community where more people authoritatively repeat theory, supposition or pseudoscience as fact without admitting that they don't understand it or that it's just a theory they heard from someone they respect.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muppet_man67 View Post
    Would you consider it "parroted knowledge" to measure extraction yield by weighing the shot rather than measuring with a shot glass? Just one example.
    For the average home barista I'd consider it borderline OCD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    Not if someone understands why​ they're doing it.
    Because crema variation means that volume is not a reliable indicator.

    Actually it's better to have a novice barista weighing their shots because that's the only way they know than it is a novice barista using shot glasses to measure 30ml of espresso. So the point is...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    For the average home barista I'd consider it borderline OCD.
    Yea but in a cafe where you want to be able to hand over to the next barista on duty and know the drinks are going to taste the same, its pretty invaluable. Or when you want to quickly dial in brand new beans? Knowing what your in and outs are can save a ton of beans and taste buds and help you sleep at night.

    Also have you seen some of the youtube videos made by home baristas? OCD is an understatement.

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    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muppet_man67 View Post
    Because crema variation means that volume is not a reliable indicator.

    Actually it's better to have a novice barista weighing their shots because that's the only way they know than it is a novice barista using shot glasses to measure 30ml of espresso. So the point is...?
    I meant it's not parroted "knowledge" if they understand why weight measurement is better. (in case I wasn't clear).

    The point is that if there's a culture of repeating knowledge without understanding it, then it's easier for incorrect information to propagate.

    The results may be better, but if someone tells me that weighing is better than volumetric measurement but can't tell me why, then they really shouldn't be authoritatively telling anyone anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    I read forums. A lot. More than is healthy, if I'm honest. I've never seen a community where more people authoritatively repeat theory, supposition or pseudoscience as fact without admitting that they don't understand it or that it's just a theory they heard from someone they respect.
    You should visit the Australian Renewable Fuels forum. Lot's of fun to be had there.


    Why do people use the term "3rd wave" like it was some kind of organised revolution with an official mandate. It seems more an observation of an organic socioeconomic phenomenon to me.

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    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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