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Thread: Diognose this pour please

  1. #1
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    Diognose this pour please

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi All,
    I managed to get a naked PF today for a loan and shot this video. Coffee Video - YouTube
    Please make comment on this pour. Video shot with a couple of GoPro Cameras.
    Regards
    Crisp Image

  2. #2
    Coffee Newbie okitoki's Avatar
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    i'll take a stab at it... possible uneven distribution of your grind... clumpy grinds? have you tried stiring it before tamping? if you remove the channelling (the mini sprays) the pour should become longer... does your puck have small holes or caves on the side?

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    those sprays look clear... almost like the water hasn't contacted coffee. do you get sprays without a naked pf? maybe look at changing gaskets if you do.

    looks like some channelling happening too. maybe post a video of your routine so we can also have a look at what might be contributing to the problems? =) i noticed flow seemed a little quick as well (at least it seemed so). how much are you dosing and how fresh are the beans? also what does the puck look like at the end?

    hope this helps!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by okitoki View Post
    i'll take a stab at it... possible uneven distribution of your grind... clumpy grinds? have you tried stiring it before tamping? if you remove the channelling (the mini sprays) the pour should become longer... does your puck have small holes or caves on the side?
    MMM OK I use a doser on the grinder so clumping is not an issue. It is a compak WBC so a fairly good one. I have a pulman tamp so it fits well. I really don't know how else to get rid of the channeling. I have not noticed any holes in the puk.
    Regards
    Crisp image

  5. #5
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Must have been pretty um….. 'bright'…….um sour!

    I think it's fairly typical of most people's first experience with a naked…………
    it shows everything about your technique, warts and all, happened to me too when I first started with one.
    Nothing to worry about.

    They're not called 'naked' for nothing, no fig leaves here. ;-D everything is hangin' out!

    The shot is channeling, big time, with a few squirts thrown in for good measure.
    The very blonde pour on the near side to the camera is the area where most
    of the channeling is happening.

    It's back to the drawing board with your grind, dose and tamp technique.

    If your distribution and tamp are ok then your grind is too coarse or your dose is too small.
    Make sure your tamp is nice and level and 15kgs of pressure.
    What size filter are you using? You want to be using a double, triple or even a quad.
    A triple works fine with nakeds, set the grind and dose so the shot almost chokes then back off the grind till the coffee
    starts to show in an even ring around the bottom of the filter then appears fairly evenly all over. A few drips is fine, then
    coming together in the centre by about the 12 second mark, with nice tiger striping for virtually all of the pour.



    This one is more how it should look, check it out:

    Gaggia Classic + PID naked double shot - YouTube

    Slayer Espresso Machine Espresso Extraction at Espresso Loft - YouTube

    search you tube using keywords like perfect coffee extraction, tiger striping, naked portafilter….

  6. #6
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    My 2 cents
    Besides above, it seems to be pouring a bit too fast...It should kind of "ooze out". like honey dripping, without breaking...
    Do you weigh your doses/shots?
    Did you try the coin trick? (Tamp your shot and put a coin (1cent) on top and screw in the PF and remove it. The coin should not be pushed in!)

    I have Silvia/naked PF and struggled too a bit, following some advice here: Commercial link removed has helped me a lot...
    I found out that 16g in my double filter was too much, i do max 15.5g...
    I know you have a different machine, just saying...
    Good luck, I am still working on my perfect shot...
    Last edited by Javaphile; 20th October 2013 at 10:46 AM. Reason: Commercial link removed

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post

    It's back to the drawing board with your grind, dose and tamp technique.

    If your distribution and tamp are ok then your grind is too coarse or your dose is too small.
    Make sure your tamp is nice and level and 15kgs of pressure.
    What size filter are you using? You want to be using a double, triple or even a quad.
    A triple works fine with nakeds, set the grind and dose so the shot almost chokes then back off the grind till the coffee
    starts to show in an even ring around the bottom of the filter then appears fairly evenly all over. A few drips is fine, then
    coming together in the centre by about the 12 second mark, with nice tiger striping for virtually all of the pour.
    Hi Crisp_image


    I agree with chokkidog with two caveats:
    If that is not a VST basket, I have seen many similar pours in terms of channeling from some of the others in my collection. Some "big name makes" have really crappy baskets... and naked p/f's reveal all.
    I have found that doing a light initial tamp using a small amount of coffee in the bottom of the basket (i.e. about 2-3mm compressed) is almost essential to get the most out of a naked. A full progressive tamp usually gains a little more, however if you choose to do it that way you should only use around 3.5Kgs (not 15) for the final tamp. Sorting out the basic grind (way, way finer than the gusher you made), dose (up) and tamp will then start to get some consistency happening. Fine tuning after that will give you much stronger flavour, making larger baskets unnecessary unless you prefer ristrettos to balanced. FWIW, I have all the VST's and barely use anything other than the 7g (lattes) and the ridgeless 15g's these days. It is worth remembering that the single espresso in Italy is 7g, and there is a reason for that. Mind you, different roasts tend to display even more pronounced variances in a naked so try to get within the zone of the other video's in chokkidog's post and then work out flavour / strength.

    Hope this helps

    TampIt

  8. #8
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    Just for some balance.

    I achieved the pour in that first video using a standard 10 year old gaggia classic double basket...which can be pretty rough for hole size.

    Quality greens from BeanBay, well roasted by me and ground in a Compak K3. These 3 things make everything else in the process a lot easier. Grounds weighed and dosed from a plastic cup = consistent dose and very even distribution.
    The tamp back then would have been a straight down, lightly at first to check its level then firmly with what would have been somewhere around 12 - 15kg of force. ( yep i have measured my tamp and repeatedly hit this zone)

    Great results can be had with a logical approach and keeping tamp technique simple.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve82 View Post
    Just for some balance.

    I achieved the pour in that first video using a standard 10 year old gaggia classic double basket...which can be pretty rough for hole size.

    Quality greens from BeanBay, well roasted by me and ground in a Compak K3. These 3 things make everything else in the process a lot easier. Grounds weighed and dosed from a plastic cup = consistent dose and very even distribution.
    The tamp back then would have been a straight down, lightly at first to check its level then firmly with what would have been somewhere around 12 - 15kg of force. ( yep i have measured my tamp and repeatedly hit this zone)

    Great results can be had with a logical approach and keeping tamp technique simple.
    I agree, and you have made me rush to make my morning cuppa - looks awesome!

  10. #10
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Caveats? opinions, more like……

    That's your video Steve? good one!! Great example and I agree entirely, I don't use VST baskets, so don't consider them essential for great coffee.

    As far as filter size and up or down dosing goes, it's far easier to achieve a result with a bigger basket and a dose weight of over 16 gms.
    Once a technique has been established it's then a lot easier to play with the parameters.

    Same as learning to manage a 4kg batch of beans in a 5 kg roaster is the key to learning how to roast 600 gms of beans in the same kit.

    15kg tamping is pretty standard but whatever works for you…..consistency is the key to achieving great shots over and over.
    I have had more trouble with clients who tamp lightly and produce fast, sour shots than with those that tamp 12-15 kgs.

  11. #11
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    I have had more trouble with clients who tamp lightly and produce fast, sour shots than with those that tamp 12-15 kgs.
    ...I agree and it's a common discussion on CS too.

    I've found that when "training" new commercial customers I tell them to tamp as hard as they can (leaving their feet on the ground).

    My logic is:
    * A heavy tamp from me, my wife, kids and visitors will all be within 10% difference. It's pretty hard to get a much bigger variation.
    * A light tamp can easily be made to be 100%, 200%, 500% variance with a different punter on the machine.

    In that commercial environment the heavy tamp is a great way to get at least one variable out of the way.

    Those that do the light, or worse, feather tamp are more than welcome to do so but don't expect anyone else using your equipment to ever get a good shot without making a pile of changes to your setup.
    ;-)

    Please make comment on this pour. Video shot with a couple of GoPro Cameras
    Nice video too! Those squirts are an excellent example of "what went wrong". Have a play with your technique (great tips in this thread) and maybe fine the grind a little too.

    I like getting people to tamp hard, then fine the grind until you "choke" the shot to just a couple of drips. At that point back the grinder off a tad and try again. It's far easier to work back from too fine than it is to work through the range of too fast.

    I'm sure between all of us we will have you pulling great shots in no time!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Caveats? opinions, more like……

    That's your video Steve? good one!!
    Hey, yeah cheers, I posted that back in April in this thread for comments, in regards to extraction length, balancing flavours etc. http://coffeesnobs.com.au/showthread.php?p=498401

  13. #13
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    I've found that when "training" new commercial customers I tell them to tamp as hard as they can (leaving their feet on the ground).
    And some old(er) CSers too Andy...

    Have been doing it this way for the last couple of years since my ability to control lighter tamps has flown out of the window. Works a treat and very rarely have "squirters"...

    Mal.

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    Thanks for all the replies to my post.
    So what I have is the standard basket that came with my Expobar MinoreII. I am using a compak WBC grinder with doser so that eliminated clumping.
    I aggree going naked shows warts and all that is why we do it is it not?
    I did try the basket from my sunbeam 6910 and although the shot was slower I got no squirts from it. I then retried the original basket and got a couple of them.
    I have inspected the puck and have found no evidence of channeling.
    Now for some questions:
    1. Does the size of the basket really make a difference when going naked seeing as all we have done is removed the bottom of the PF to see what is going on. The bottom of the PF causes no pressure restriction and really only guides the extracted coffee to where we want it to go.
    2. A VST Basket is a brand or style? is it a quality thing that people either like or hate?

    I should do some more videos for comparrision.
    As Dory once said "Keep swimming keep swimming"
    Regards
    Crisp Image

  15. #15
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Google VST (brand) filter basket for all the info and a wide range of reviews.
    There are a couple of threads and lots of mentions on CS, use the in-house search function.

    No it doesn't matter what size filter but a bigger basket will let you get a handle on your technique more easily.
    Then you can work backwards to a smaller size, if that's what you want.

    If you were learning how to walk a tightrope, would you start on a 100mm rope or a 20mm rope? ;-)



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