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    Need to convince my coffee shop

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi all,
    I have a predicament. I get coffee at the same place everyday and lately I've taken quite a liking to a piccilo latte. However its shown me that my barristers technique is really lacking.

    I've been going there for a year, what i've noticed is that sometimes the coffee is really really bitter and burnt, and other times its ok. Basically to cut a long story short, they don't tamp their coffee with a tamper. they use the press which is on their grinder.

    I asked him to show me the group after he tamped it and it was not level, there was a ridge around it, it was un even, basically everything that is wrong with a good tamp. I cannot imagine what is happening to the extraction but its not good.
    After explaining this all to him he told me its all garbage and there's no such thing, and that other cafes he's worked at, the guys with tampers always made the worst coffees. It was a heated discussion which prompted me to jump around the counter and explain what happens on extraction with an uneven/untamped group and explaining channeling to him.

    The challenge he presented was to bring in my tamper this tamper was hideous and had a lip on it, and all dented). So i'll bring in mine tomorrow and try and help him, but what more can I do.

    I tried to explain to him that making coffee is as much as a science as it is an art, but he said there is nothing here to do with science.

    Any advice from you guys would be great as to best way to tackle this one.

    Cheers

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    Coffee Newbie okitoki's Avatar
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    from his point of view, he probably is annoyed that a customer is telling him how to do his job, constructive criticism or not, it may not be welcomed if not asked... especially if no one complaint over the time he has made coffee before...

    from your point of view, you are trying to help, but then if he is not willing to listen, you are just wasting your time, and money for drinking his Russian roulette coffee.. let your wallet do the talking and find somewhere else for your daily fix...

    I know of a business owner who has an attitude problem, and has issues with keeping her temper, emotion and mouth in check which unfortunately has turned off alot of customers away from her business... a few of us had explained to her why people avoid her business to would rather go to other business that's inferior compared to hers... but she just doesn't listen or change... so we too stop telling her and go to her business anymore.... some people are just plain stubborn...
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    Oh Dont get me wrong, I've been there for a year, I am very very very good friends with all of them over the past year. We talk evrey day and have lunch together. They don't ever take anything I say offensively. So there's no issue there, its more about helping them, because I do love them!

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Welcome to Coffee Snobs Sam.
    Your little story reminds me of the old adage "you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink"
    Keep us informed as to how your relationship with Mr Barista is going.
    You say "I asked him to show me the group after he tamped it" I think you mean you asked him to show you the porta filter after he tamped it (the coffee) that is.

    As a matter of interest I visit a couple of cafe's where they only use the tamping device built into the grinder, the coffee is usually very good, it can be done.

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    haha yes thast what I meant! sorry there!

    I will let you know tomorrow when the test happens. The problem is that the tamper built into the grinder is really small, it doesnt fit the porta filter at all.

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    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by oohsam View Post
    However its shown me that my barristers technique is really lacking.
    Must be if he ended up in hospitality

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Must be if he ended up in hospitality
    Reminds me of the Rake episode where he is described in a newspaper as a 'barista'

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    Quote Originally Posted by oohsam View Post
    haha yes thast what I meant! sorry there!

    I will let you know tomorrow when the test happens. The problem is that the tamper built into the grinder is really small, it doesnt fit the porta filter at all.
    hahahah Is this the coffee snobs forum or the English Grammar and spelling forum!!!

    I had a laugh.

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    I had a ristretto from a cafe in toorak a few weeks ago and the barista didn't even tamp - filled the basket from the grinder and then straight on to the machine.. didn't seem to affect the quality of the shot in terms of bitterness or poor extraction..

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jools View Post
    I had a ristretto from a cafe in toorak a few weeks ago and the barista didn't even tamp - filled the basket from the grinder and then straight on to the machine.. didn't seem to affect the quality of the shot in terms of bitterness or poor extraction..
    You sure he didn't use one of those 'upward' tamping manouevres, where they have the equivalent of a tamper permanently suspended near the grinder, and the operator raises the portafilter upwards to lightly tamp the coffee? Hard to imagine the results of zero tamp, but I guess there's always a 'pioneer'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oohsam View Post
    hahahah Is this the coffee snobs forum or the English Grammar and spelling forum!!!

    I had a laugh.
    It's the internet, grammar nazis are everywhere - here they are also powered by caffeine!

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Welcome to Coffee Snobs Sam.
    Your little story reminds me of the old adage "you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink"
    .
    Or Dorothy Parker's less tasteful variant 'You can lead a W&#re to culture, but you can't make her think'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    You sure he didn't use one of those 'upward' tamping manouevres, where they have the equivalent of a tamper permanently suspended near the grinder, and the operator raises the portafilter upwards to lightly tamp the coffee? Hard to imagine the results of zero tamp, but I guess there's always a 'pioneer'.
    I'm trying to remember if he at least tapped the grounds to settle them but I'm quite sure I remember a heaped and untamped mound of ground coffee in the basket as it was attached to the group

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Must be if he ended up in hospitality
    I imagine the difference in spelling could be quite important to a person needing a barrister and finding he has made an appointment to see a coffee maker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    I imagine the difference in spelling could be quite important to a person needing a barrister and finding he has made an appointment to see a coffee maker.
    Or getting a $3500 bill for two flat whites

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    Well last time I had a Barrister for a half-day session it cost me $3,500- and in the recess, Mr White informed me that the half-day rate meant that he would only pay for one Flat White! : true story... Full day rate is therefore $7,000- AND includes two flat whites....

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    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    More important is the beans itself, roast date etc and the correct dose. Tamp does come into play but if they don't have good beans to begin with then it's all minor improvements.

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Oh dear, Ground Hog Day, again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol_Grumpy View Post
    Well last time I had a Barrister for a half-day session it cost me $3,500- and in the recess, Mr White informed me that the half-day rate meant that he would only pay for one Flat White! : true story... Full day rate is therefore $7,000- AND includes two flat whites....
    I once asked a barrister if he would answer two questions for me for $500 and he said "Certainly. What's the other question."
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    Quote Originally Posted by saoye View Post
    More important is the beans itself, roast date etc and the correct dose. Tamp does come into play but if they don't have good beans to begin with then it's all minor improvements.
    But surely with no tamp at all the shot would be severely prone to channeling and consequently very inconsistent. You would have to grind very finely and with 9 bar of water pressure hitting loose grinds, I can't imagine a good shot. Maybe in the example given, the barista is overdosing and effectively using the showerscreen to perform a light tamp?

    BTW, I agree that tamp pressure is an overated factor, with dose and grind being more critical variables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtW View Post
    But surely with no tamp at all the shot would be severely prone to channeling and consequently very inconsistent. You would have to grind very finely and with 9 bar of water pressure hitting loose grinds, I can't imagine a good shot. Maybe in the example given, the barista is overdosing and effectively using the showerscreen to perform a light tamp?

    BTW, I agree that tamp pressure is an overated factor, with dose and grind being more critical variables.
    One of the Italian entrants in the world barista champs a year or four back did not tamp. Must need a different grind / dosing setup to work, however it must be possible if he could compete at that level.

    Tamp pressure: a 300lb (say 130Kg) single tamp test done by La Marzocco showed no compression below 1/4" of the top of the puck. That is partly why progressive tamping is so important / critical w a naked. Other setups: who knows?

    TampIt

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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    Tamp pressure: a 300lb (say 130Kg) single tamp test done by La Marzocco showed no compression below 1/4" of the top of the puck. That is partly why progressive tamping is so important / critical w a naked. Other setups: who knows?

    TampIt
    Am I reading this correctly? You're saying they put a 130kg tamp on a basket and there was no compression beyond the top 1/4" of the puck?

  23. #23
    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtW View Post
    But surely with no tamp at all the shot would be severely prone to channeling and consequently very inconsistent.
    No. Not necessarily...It all comes back to grind, dose and distribution. Get them right and tamp becomes far less important.

    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    One of the Italian entrants in the world barista champs a year or four back did not tamp. Must need a different grind / dosing setup to work, however it must be possible if he could compete at that level.
    Yes- not a new thing....It all comes back to grind, dose and distribution. Always has...

    Tamp pressure: a 300lb (say 130Kg) single tamp test done by La Marzocco showed no compression below 1/4" of the top of the puck. That is partly why progressive tamping is so important / critical w a naked. Other setups: who knows?

    TampIt
    My detector just went off again....

    Sorry, but bollocks.... It probably helps sell tampers, but it all comes back to grind, dose and distribution. Always has...

    Get the above right and you can use your palm, the base of a glass or nothing if you wish.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    That is partly why progressive tamping is so important / critical w a naked. Other setups: who knows?
    TampIt
    This is incorrect, assuming everything else is right a regular tamp with a naked PF is all that is required.
    Not sure where your getting your information from Tampit, you certainly come up with some oddball idea's.
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    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    That is partly why progressive tamping is so important / critical w a naked. Other setups: who knows?
    A lot of the stuff you post is (to me) knowledgable, well-thought-out and interesting.

    The above is pure fiction. A naked PF cannot logically have any effect bar whatever difference in taste you think might be caused by contact with the basin/spouts that exist in a spouted PF but not in a naked.

    There is not and cannot be any difference in pressure or flow in the system due to choice of naked/spouted PF if the shot is not gushing and the spouts are appropriately sized.
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    Thought I was in the "Humour" thread there for a while...

    Mal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Thought I was in the "Humour" thread there for a while...

    Mal.
    Must admit the forum is certainly good for the odd chuckle nowadays.

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    If the 130kg tamp only compressing the top 1/4 were true, it would revolutionise the helmet and many other industries.
    In a collapsing building? Just pour some coffee on your head.
    Patent pending. All rights reserved.
    (I do realise I've drawn a long bow - for humours sake).

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    A bullet will punch through several inches of timber (making a mockery of all those movies showing people being immune to being shot by standing behind a fibro or weatherboard wall) but be stopped cold by a book less thick than the wall. Humour is one thing, but be aware of physics.

    I'm more interested in how the OP went with his edjumacation of the barista...?

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    Yeah you have me there Journeyman. Certainly no physics or any form of science in that long bow.

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    This is for the Talk Coffee post onwards.

    I had Michael Teahan's paper "Fundamental Principals of Espresso Machine Design" in my (paper) library from years ago: good interesting read. Does not seem to be available on line, however there are plenty of references to it. Shows how good science can ask the wrong question and get a valid consistent half true result be failing to deal with all confounding factors.

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/general-co...-pressure.html has a little info about it. Result: no difference when using a single tamp at 30lbs or a hydraulically stable 300lbs.

    CoffeeGeek - Tamping Science, Theory and Practice, Part One
    "Thirty pounds of tamping pressure was kind of religious in espresso circles back in 2000. David Schomer, a pioneer in espresso crafting was touting that number in his books and his speaking engagements. In the newsgroup alt.coffee, the general consensus was that 30 pounds was the magic pressure for tamping (not all agreed with this though). So I was pretty surprised to hear that the Swift only tamped with 8 pounds of pressure.

    I asked why, and Blackwell went on to explain that during the development of the grinder, they initially set the continuous tamping device at 30 pounds of pressure, and found that they created solid bricks in the filter basket, no matter how coarse the grind was. They were a bit mystified by it all, but eventually figured out two elements were at work.

    First, ground coffee is a wide range of particle sizes within it's scope of "espresso grind", and those grounds form a kind of interlocking puzzle when compressed. The more pressure exerted on the interlocking pieces, and the tighter the overall fit is.

    Second, and most crucial, they believed that in manual hand tamping, no matter how much pressure a person exerts on the top of the bed of ground coffee, by the time one gets down to the bottom third of the bed, almost all that pressure is eaten up, and the bottom portion of the formed puck is barely compacted any more by the tamping pressure. Because the Swift grinder continuously tamps as the coffee is ground and added to the basket, all the pressure comes to bear on the forming puck, a millimeter in height at a time.

    Simply put, when you tamp by hand, you're tightening up the pieces of the puzzle at the top of the formed puck quite a bit; less so by the time you get midway down the puck, and very little, if any tightening at all by the time you get to the bottom few millimeters. The swift interlocks the grind puzzle pieces firmly and tightly from the get go, right through the entire formation of the puck. Result? Water hits a brick wall, even if the coffee is ground coarser.

    La Marzocco were not the only ones to talk about this. I remember discussing this with some folks from Illy back in 2003 at the Boston SCAA show, and they talked about similar theories."

    The earlier posts plus those two quotes to show how little tamping has progressed since 2006. Oddball ideas? My curiosity led me to follow all research in that area I can lay my hands on since 1970. It also led me to do the same experiment as LM via what they call continuous tamping many years ago - with exactly the same result. A single tamp does not give anything like the same result as progressive tamps...

    FWIW, the Northern Italian who trained me to tamp progressively (1979) loved SO's and SO's seem to benefit a lot more from progressive tamping than dark roasts (which I have posted on CS before). Probably why they must have used it "way back when" in Northern Italy.

    I still regard CS as a good way to share info, however this lot has me wondering whether to reassess that belief.

    TampIt

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Hi TampIt,

    I think several people find this stuff interesting. What I don't get is why the relationships / effects you describe are contingent on whether or not you use a naked portafilter (as post#21 seems to imply). And I guess that other bit that people might respectfully wonder about is whether the issue is actually 'so important' or 'critical' in cases with a naked (but nothing wrong with the pursuit of marginal improvements of course). FWIW I sometimes use a vaguely related technique with some beans when I'm trying to get a dose / grind combo that suits.....but I just dose about 30%, tap and rest the tamper on the grinds before completing the dose.
    Cheers
    BOSW
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    TC
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    In under 1000 words, my theory/opinion (FWIW) is that there is a risk of cross channelling if you aim to build a brick wall. I'd sooner have a a consistent change in density and one brick. To put it another way, the more you d!(k around with a puck, the greater the risk of unwanted results- including channels. In addition, I'm not prepared to spend some minutes on a puck. I don't need to muck around to get consistent, excellent results.

    As for the need to tamp differently with a naked, sorry but unless it can be proven (glass portafilters and baskets anyone?), nup.

    Ultimately though, I really don't care what other users might choose to do. If it works for you and you have 10 minutes to muck around, go for it- however I do fear that this complex talk scares away noobs by making things way more complex than they need to be.

    Meanwhile, I'll have my second....
    Last edited by TC; 2nd December 2013 at 07:47 AM. Reason: typo

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    Senior Member Pavoniboy's Avatar
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    My part in this was just stretching things for a laugh, and was in no way any comment on the science of it all.

    My thoughts immediately were that there probably is far less pressure at bottom of puck then top because we are tamping into a cylinder where some of the energy we are applying downward is being converted to outward pressure (against walls of cylinder) and thus dissipating downward force. I didn't know if this was true as I had no real research, but your comment seemed plausible that there is far less pressure at bottom (but zero at bottom with 300 pounds did sound very unlikely indeed).
    I just couldn't help myself once I had an image of pouring coffee on my head in a collapsing building.
    Not meaning to pick on your comments TampIt.

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    As a rank amateur coffee maker, I agree with Chris at Talk Coffee. I cannot see a need to tamp differently while naked. I use my naked portafilter most of the time. I can easily see when I get any channelling, it is easier to keep clean and there is less of a lump of steel to cool down the brew.

    I have seen here at CS videos of complicated methods of dosing and tamping and wonder if the results in the cup are any better for it.

    Barry
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    At my work, we use a mix of naked and clothed PF'S. I tend to use the naked for LB's or double ristretto's or double shots and the clothed for when we have to split the shots. Does my technique change? No. Does the time of the shot change? No. I see no need to change it up and just create more fuss and more steps to go wrong when, frankly, it's not needed

    (Step off soapbox)
    Michael
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  37. #37
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    This is for the Talk Coffee post onwards.
    The easiest way to test the hypothesis would be to get a capped clear nylon/pvc pipe, put grounds in it and observe while tamping it with a cylinder.

    Just to clarify, the only assertion I personally have a problem with is that naked PFs are any different (though I don't feel the need to progressively tamp myself).

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry_Duncan View Post
    I have seen here at CS videos of complicated methods of dosing and tamping and wonder if the results in the cup are any better for it.
    Barry
    Morning Barry, no argument from me here.

    In fact I would suggest that the more complex the procedure the more chance you have of things going wrong, and of course when they do go wrong the more difficult they are to diagnose.

    When it comes to espresso the KISS principle is alive and well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Hi TampIt,

    I think several people find this stuff interesting. What I don't get is why the relationships / effects you describe are contingent on whether or not you use a naked portafilter (as post#21 seems to imply). And I guess that other bit that people might respectfully wonder about is whether the issue is actually 'so important' or 'critical' in cases with a naked (but nothing wrong with the pursuit of marginal improvements of course). FWIW I sometimes use a vaguely related technique with some beans when I'm trying to get a dose / grind combo that suits.....but I just dose about 30%, tap and rest the tamper on the grinds before completing the dose.
    Cheers
    BOSW
    James Hoffman: "I am not going to claim to be absolutely right and I hope each article I write fosters healthy debate on the subject discussed."


    Complexity: HL Mencken circa 1894 "For every complex problem there is always an answer which is neat, simple ... and wrong". If simplicity means excessive reductionism, I am against it.

    The links I quoted really open up a (much needed in my view) debate on what I will loosely call a progression from not packed / packed at the top / compressed at the top / compressed all the way through. Anyone can test this easily. Tamp at one mm at a time @ 30lb's and get a brick. Use the same dose & grind with one single 30lb tamp in the same basket: it flows a lot faster. Plenty of room for experimentation.

    Moving on to my previously abbreviated naked / medium SO comments. FWIW, dark roasts seem to be more immune to this effect. A naked has potentially a lot more flow than a standard spout*. Standard baskets in nakeds have the same issues, however VST's reveal it more clearly. Why? VST's have smaller, more consistent holes and a lot more hole area and therefore potential flow rate compared to conventional baskets. The effect of adding them together seems to multiply the flow dynamics (really noticeable). To compensate it is necessary to revisit the whole grinding** (finer is good), dosing (less is good: counteracts the finer grind to a degree) and finally tamping*** to obtain a better balance in the cuppa.

    *I am still waiting for someone to tell my why a standard p/f spout's method of putting the coffee through an extra drop and spout should improve it. In my view it cannot & does not.

    ** Grinding finer has a real side issue with a number of commercial & high end domestic grinders. VST's tend to work well at or just below "normal" espresso grinds. Too many commercial grinders start to generate an inordinate amount of fines at those settings. Even poorer conicals tend to do better than "mid range" flat burrs in that context, although that will probably change over the next few years.

    *** Given what I will coin the "hairtrigger flow dynamics" of that combo, the use of progressive damping to grind finer whilst maintaining the dose within the baskets individual sweet spot seems, at the very least, prudent. How important will always depend on your specific roast & gear. Standard baskets hide a lot of evils AFAIAC.

    If a three way balance between grinding / dosing tamping is complex, so be it.

    Hope this helps. Enjoying the result is the only thing that really matters.

    Cheers


    TampIt
    PS: One stray comment: strong tapping has been shown to reduce the stiction between the side of the basket and the coffee. Gentle is OK, however I have never seen any attempt to quantify the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    .. strong tapping has been shown to reduce the stiction between the side of the basket and the coffee. Gentle is OK, however I have never seen any attempt to quantify the difference.
    By "tapping" are you referring to the use of the tamper against the side of the PF,..or "settling taps" of the PF vertically down onto the bench ?
    Many commercial Barista's commonly use a "Settling" tap when dosing the basket in order to give a consistent , even, "fill" of grinds into the basket , and improve the distribution .
    This settling tap has a similar effect as "progressive" tamping.
    I personally go further. In order to prevent grind spillage, ( doserless grinder) i use a PF funnel and dose by "guestimated" weight, which is above the basket rim. Before i remove the funnel , i use 4-6 "settling taps" to distribute the puck. This results in an even flat ( and compacted ) puck 4+ mm below the basket rim and no amount of tamping pressure compresses it much further.
    I get very consistent results ...and very few grinds on the bench !

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    Lately I've been using a pre-tamp side tap, well actually a lot of taps. I dose, then tap the side of the PF gently with my tamper, moving around the PF a few times, so in effect probably 30+ taps, each one about about 170 degrees around from the previous tap. Then I tamp.

    I've noticed a significant improvement in the evenness of extraction, using a naked.

    Indeed I can really feel the evenness of the distribution when I tamp.

    It's clearly not a very efficient process (my wife thinks I'm mad) but for the one coffee I make at home each day I want it to be the very best shot possible each time.
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  42. #42
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    Moving on to my previously abbreviated naked / medium SO comments. FWIW, dark roasts seem to be more immune to this effect. A naked has potentially a lot more flow than a standard spout*. Standard baskets in nakeds have the same issues, however VST's reveal it more clearly. Why? VST's have smaller, more consistent holes and a lot more hole area and therefore potential flow rate compared to conventional baskets. The effect of adding them together seems to multiply the flow dynamics (really noticeable). To compensate it is necessary to revisit the whole grinding** (finer is good), dosing (less is good: counteracts the finer grind to a degree) and finally tamping*** to obtain a better balance in the cuppa.

    *I am still waiting for someone to tell my why a standard p/f spout's method of putting the coffee through an extra drop and spout should improve it. In my view it cannot & does not.
    First of all... time for a quote... couldn't help myself

    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~ Bertran Russell

    Secondly... your comments on flow rates of nakeds vs standard spouts might have been relevant if we were discussing fire hoses but at a flow rate of approximately 60ml/30 sec, or 120ml per minute, it hardly matters in the slightest.

    Lastly, has anyone ever even come close to suggesting that "...putting the coffee through an extra drop and spout should improve it"???

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    Tapping after a firm tamp seems like a bad idea, as the coffee grounds have formed into a more or less solid "cake" at this point and you could easily break a seal with them and sides of the basket. Something however tells me that seal would be re-formed pretty quick after 9 bars of water pressure hits the top of the puck. The other consensus is that it may cause micro-fractures in the puck, leading to channelling. Again, I'm not convinced once you introduce pressure and moisture via a shot that these fractures wouldn't re-seal.

    I've noticed many decent baristas don't seem to bother with any of this stuff in the cafes and still produce good looking shots. They generally grind into a mound and just tamp it.

    Of course at home we have a bit more time to go for that consistency.

  44. #44
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    A naked has potentially a lot more flow than a standard spout
    Potentially being the operative word. As I have said previously, I do not believe that there is an appreciable flow restriction under typical flow rates for espresso, given the spout sizes I have seen in my limited experience.

    Do you disagree?

    I am still waiting for someone to tell my why a standard p/f spout's method of putting the coffee through an extra drop and spout should improve it. In my view it cannot & does not.
    I completely agree (unless you like the taste of the shite that seems to accumulate in the PFs of even the better cafes I've spied). I love naked PFs for that reason and because of the visual/cleaning factor That's a different issue to what you're talking about though; you haven't shown how there can be an appreciable pressure/flow variation due to naked/spouted PF.

  45. #45
    Senior Member mwcalder05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    I've noticed many decent baristas don't seem to bother with any of this stuff in the cafes and still produce good looking shots. They generally grind into a mound and just tamp it.

    Of course at home we have a bit more time to go for that consistency.
    At work we use Robur E's and the timers on them are quite crap. Therefore, my technique is to set the 'timer' to under-dose. At the start of the day I'll figure out what 22g is, set timer to under dose, then I tap the pf on the cradle, manually dose for 0.5 of a second or so, distribute with my index finger with an indent indent that matches the 22g that I weighed in previously and tamp. Works for me at work and at home with my mini doser

    Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwcalder05 View Post
    At work we use Robur E's and the timers on them are quite crap.
    I'd be interested to see some results where someone has weighed the doses from a Robur E, say 10 doses in a row. Anybody seen such an experiment?

  47. #47
    Senior Member mwcalder05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathon View Post
    I'd be interested to see some results where someone has weighed the doses from a Robur E, say 10 doses in a row. Anybody seen such an experiment?
    It ranges by about 1.5g. Doesn't sound a lot but makes a heck of a lot of difference!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwcalder05 View Post
    It ranges by about 1.5g. Doesn't sound a lot but makes a heck of a lot of difference!
    A good barista should be able to tell 17, 18, 19 g etc just by eye and sweep. Good machines also have OPV so the 1-2g dose that makes a bigger difference on home machines tends to make less on commercial gear as far as I know.
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  49. #49
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Pretty sure that Michael works on commercial gear on a daily basis...as far as I know.

    EDIT: Matt=Michael, my apologies
    Last edited by Barry O'Speedwagon; 2nd December 2013 at 06:55 PM.
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfalz View Post
    A good barista should be able to tell 17, 18, 19 g etc just by eye and sweep. Good machines also have OPV so the 1-2g dose that makes a bigger difference on home machines tends to make less on commercial gear as far as I know.
    Out of curiosity, how does that work? I agree that going from say 18g to 20g on a home HX makes a colossal difference, but why doesn't it on a commercial?



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