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Thread: Rate my puck?

  1. #1
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    Rate my puck?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hey guys,

    Having a little trouble reading my puck post pull.

    The details are:

    Silvia V3
    Rosco Hand grinder @ 0.65mm
    16.5g Fresh Nessun Dorma beans.
    Rancilio Naked PF handle
    Rancilio 14g basket

    Pic:


    Now, the grind scattered up the side of the filter and somewhat up on top of the lip makes me think too much head space and the top bit of puck is being allowed to swirl around a little.

    However, the fairly large indent of the shower screen bolt makes me think that it's overdosed?

    The pour formed fairly evenly and ran nicely at around the diameter of a large mouse tail. Only very minor sprays. I feel like it blonded a little quickly, but I'm not even 100% sure where the goldilocks zone for blonding is?

    How can I fix this? Also - someone please point out what the actual problem is - I assume there has to be one

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Coffee Newbie okitoki's Avatar
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    How did the espresso tasted?

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    What's your tamping style? If you're're nutating or something, perhaps the sides of the grind are being pressed down or disturbed more than the centre, causing this disturbance. Does your tamper fit well in the basket? Those bits on the edge also sort of look like what's left over when a tamper doesn't fit the basket perfectly. I can see a tamper in your picture, looks like a good one so that's probably not it.
    How do the results change when you use that smart grinder in the picture? Any difference?

    That's pretty much all I've got, probably not very helpful. I mainly wanted to reply just to say that comparing the flow diameter of an espresso shot to that of a rodents tail is quite possibly the oddest comparison I've ever heard. Not that it's bad, it makes sense i guess, just sort of depends on different people's views on what constitutes a "large" mouse. Like, are we talking large field mouse, sewer rat, nutria perhaps? This can present a dilemma which I'm sure will provoke deep and philosophical conversation.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    What oki said. Plus if you really want a visual critique you'd be better off posting a video of the pour than a picture of your puck. (Bar for determining dosing)

    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    . Not that it's bad, it makes sense i guess, just sort of depends on different people's views on what constitutes a "large" mouse. Like, are we talking large field mouse, sewer rat, nutria perhaps? This can present a dilemma which I'm sure will provoke deep and philosophical conversation.
    That's what makes it so useful; great shots can be had from the tail-sizes of many species :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuaneDibbley View Post
    Hey guys,

    How can I fix this? Also - someone please point out what the actual problem is - I assume there has to be one

    Thanks!
    What actually is it you want to "Fix" ??
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    More importantly, did you or any of your family get any sleep after consuming the Nessun Dorma beans? That'd be a tell-tale sign of failure (Lionel Hutz style).

  7. #7
    TOK
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    I am not a fan of the standard Rancilio double filter supplied with Silvia, and believe you get a better coffee from the larger standard industry commercial double filter. There's about a 2 gram increase in the weight of the dose of grinds (from silvia filter to commerial filter) which significantly improves the cup/s (my opinion).

    Silvia is very finicky about getting the right dose and studying your photo I am not sure your dose is big enough (for me) although it would otherwise appear to be very close... I dont take any notice of the indent of the locating bolt for the shower, and go more on the distance of the dose from the top of the filter down to the circlip groove (and of course the indent of the shower on the puk afterwards). Note if you go too high, Silvia will invariable leak...ie it tells you you if you dosed up too much.

    All that said, if the coffee is good, are you worrying about something that isnt a problem? As someone else said it is hard to judge anything else from this without seeing what you do, and for me that would include watching you grind, dose and tamp, in addition to watching the pour. Certainly you can (in my opinion) improve the coffee significantly just by the simple fitment of a standard commercial size filter as already noted.

    Hope that helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by okitoki View Post
    How did the espresso tasted?
    Everything you need to know, is revealed, in the cup...

    If the coffee is sublime? Or at the very least, you find it is very pleasant to drink?
    Who cares what the top of the puck looks like?

    FWIW, I often find the top surface of the puck can have significant features, almost like an underwater rift. Yet, on a good day the shot is tiger stripe, 100% Crema and to die for, in the mouth....
    If the coffee is good (to your taste), Who cares what the top of the puck looks like, post shot?
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    Keep your grind constant.
    Dose 16.0g and then another shot with 15.5g. Observe the flow, and taste the difference in the cup.
    Then make adjustments.

    Read this:
    Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste - Tips and Techniques • Home-Barista.com

    Adjust your technique accordingly.
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  10. #10
    TOK
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    I'm going to have another "crack" at this.
    Quote Originally Posted by DuaneDibbley View Post
    Hey guys,

    Having a little trouble reading my puck post pull.

    The details are:

    Silvia V3
    Rosco Hand grinder @ 0.65mm
    16.5g Fresh Nessun Dorma beans.
    Rancilio Naked PF handle
    Rancilio 14g basket

    Pic:

    Now, the grind scattered up the side of the filter and somewhat up on top of the lip makes me think too much head space and the top bit of puck is being allowed to swirl around a little.

    However, the fairly large indent of the shower screen bolt makes me think that it's overdosed?

    The pour formed fairly evenly and ran nicely at around the diameter of a large mouse tail. Only very minor sprays. I feel like it blonded a little quickly, but I'm not even 100% sure where the goldilocks zone for blonding is?

    How can I fix this? Also - someone please point out what the actual problem is - I assume there has to be one

    Thanks!
    Question: Rate my Puk?. My revised reply, on the basis of now taking a closer and magnified look at the photo as well as having another read of the entire topic. To me, the photo of your puk seems to indicate a small under dose. On a well packed (if not over packed) dose, the indentation of the locating bolt is usually very sharp, and yours isn't, indicating there was probably a small amount of liquid on top of the puk immediately the group handle was removed from the group, and before it dissipated into the puk over time while you were getting ready to take the photo. Also there seem to be areas where the kiss of the shower can be seen, and others where it cant. Ergo you asked "Rate my Puk" and my reply is, it seems to be just a whisker under dosed. Whether that makes any difference to the quality of your cup or not is hard to say, and whether it caused "early blonding" in the resulting cup is impossible to know except where you can make a row of coffees under different conditions and see what happens wrt blonding in each case. And sometimes, some coffees just blond out earlier than others...... As noted by someone else, try making coffee using different doses, but keeping the grind constant (at least at first...only ever change one variable at a time) and see what happens. My interpretation, is you are asking how to fix what you think is early blonding, and if it may be related to what can be seen of your puk. You also ask if there is a problem, my reply is: only if you think so. I will note again, irrespective, I think you can make a better coffee if you replace the rancilio filter with a std commercial one BUT....the same conditions of coffee making and traditional "puk reading" will apply. Kindly note "puk reading" is not an exact art....and is consequently subject to a great deal of opinion . Enjoy.

  11. #11
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    You might be interested in what happens in this video to help you with your puck diagnosis.

    Transparent portafilter

    I agree with those above who suggest that you concentrate on grind and dose and ignore what the puck looks like completely. FWIW, my current pucks come out fairly solid, but with a previous coffee (that was just as nice as the current one, just different), once I adjusted dose and grind to taste, the pucks were really sloppy. So for me, what the puck looks like doesn't matter.

  12. #12
    TOK
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    I disagree as I dont think anyone should entirely ignore the look of their resulting puks. It happens to be a very handy diagnostic tool especially for beginners that have made whopper mistakes.

    Granted this isnt a whopper or any mistake at all and as we have nearly all said now, who says there is anything actually wrong.

    But the OP did ask, and there are some things that can be and have been said in reply, especially if he is trying to improve his coffee making skills and understanding.

    I will say again, I dont believe anyone should entirely ignore their puk as it is one of the many useful diagnostics in espresso making.

    Keep it up Duane.

  13. #13
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    I guess what I'm saying is, if you look at what happens to the puck at the end of the extraction in the video you can see a rapid back-flow when the shot ends. This back-flow will disturb anything that happened to the puck during the shot and so how can you get any useful info out of it?

    I suggest to the op to ignore pucks because of that and, because when I was starting out, I used the 5 cent test to get the dose about right and then fine-tuned from there. I got concerned when the puck got a bit sloppy and used that as a sign my dose was to small. I then did a little session with a barista who tasted my shot an said the grind wasn't fine enough. I replied I couldn't go any finer because I'd have to reduce the dose or shot would choke. He said so reduce the dose. I said, but the puck will get sloppy. He said, who cares? I followed his advice and got a really nice, sweet shot, but a really sloppy puck. I have not seen any correlation between a good shot and what the puck looks like, hence my suggestion to the OP to ignore the puck.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Personally, I am a fan of a good looking puck.
    I don't think anyone should have to put up with an ugly puck.
    It's your democratic right.
    Demand it.

  15. #15
    Member ThankDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete39 View Post
    You might be interested in what happens in this video to help you with your puck diagnosis.

    Transparent portafilter
    Wow, that video was really interesting. I had previously thought that it was necessary for the grounds to rest up against the screen but that looks like it's filling with water first and then the water is being forced through them. Unless I'm missing something?

  16. #16
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    FWIW, I reckon that generating puks of consistent appearance and structural integrity is just as/more important than whether you could use it play hockey with. Puks of consistent appearance are, well, consistent with the application of a consistent and reliable technique (holding the bean used as a constant). If I hit a sweet spot with a coffee that results in a slightly sloppy puk I don't care. Obviously there are limits.....

  17. #17
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    As a Canadian I just can't help myself... the correct spelling of "puck", regardless of whether we are discussing coffee or ice hockey, is: P U C K
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  18. #18
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    As a Canadian I just can't help myself... the correct spelling of "puck", regardless of whether we are discussing coffee or ice hockey, is: P U C K
    I was referring to the little bloke from Midsummer Night's Dream

  19. #19
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    I don't know about you guys,

    But I can tell you my puck is well and truly pucked on nothing less than a genuine Hockey Puck...

    The OE Slap-Shot is made with a genuine unused Official Hockey Puck...

    It's a really good little pucker....
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  20. #20
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    I was referring to the little bloke from Midsummer Night's Dream
    Me thinks thou doth protest too much... as the wee fellow's name in Midsummer Night's Dream was in fact... Puck

  21. #21
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    Me thinks thou doth protest too much... as the wee fellow's name in Midsummer Night's Dream was in fact... Puck
    Couldn't afford 4 letters at our School......(lick road clean with tongue etc....)

  22. #22
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Couldn't afford 4 letters at our School......(lick road clean with tongue etc....)
    A tongue? Looxury.

  23. #23
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    For pucks sake, this thread has derailed significantly. OP hasn't even replied yet, he's probably wondering how the puck he should respond to all these weird posts.

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    Might I suggest "WTP"?
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  25. #25
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    Holy crap, this certainly took off!



    Quote Originally Posted by okitoki View Post
    How did the espresso tasted?
    I feel like my coffees usually taste a little bitter. I find when I buy a coffee from LTD Espresso Bar or DiBella et al the drink tastes correct but without the tiny little bitter after taste I usually achieve.

    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    What's your tamping style? If you're're nutating or something, perhaps the sides of the grind are being pressed down or disturbed more than the centre, causing this disturbance. Does your tamper fit well in the basket? Those bits on the edge also sort of look like what's left over when a tamper doesn't fit the basket perfectly. I can see a tamper in your picture, looks like a good one so that's probably not it.
    How do the results change when you use that smart grinder in the picture? Any difference?

    That's pretty much all I've got, probably not very helpful. I mainly wanted to reply just to say that comparing the flow diameter of an espresso shot to that of a rodents tail is quite possibly the oddest comparison I've ever heard. Not that it's bad, it makes sense i guess, just sort of depends on different people's views on what constitutes a "large" mouse. Like, are we talking large field mouse, sewer rat, nutria perhaps? This can present a dilemma which I'm sure will provoke deep and philosophical conversation.
    Tamping style is directly down. Then spin. Sometimes I'll get the downward force wrong and nutate the puck, but this doesn't happen all that often.

    I didn't actually come up with the rodent tail comparison. I vaguely remember seeing is posted on another coffee forum a while back and thinking about my pours reminded me of it and it seemed like a reasonable comparison to make. You're correct in suggesting the ambiguity of the comparison, though. As I spend very little time (fortunately) in sewers I think I think I should specify the Fancy Mouse and Rat which you'd find as pets. I saw a New York sewer rat in the Smithsonian and I think you'd need an espresso machine connected to a coffee plantation fed by a fire truck to achieve a pour of that magnitude!


    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    What actually is it you want to "Fix" ??
    I have an especially poor palate when it comes to differentiating subtle flavours so I tend to get to something that I can live with by taste then try to improve upon that by studying the technique and improving upon that to get the final few improvements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    More importantly, did you or any of your family get any sleep after consuming the Nessun Dorma beans? That'd be a tell-tale sign of failure (Lionel Hutz style).
    I can have a double before bed and still sleep. The Nessun Dorma didn't stand a chance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
    Keep your grind constant.
    Dose 16.0g and then another shot with 15.5g. Observe the flow, and taste the difference in the cup.
    Then make adjustments.

    Read this:
    Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste - Tips and Techniques • Home-Barista.com

    Adjust your technique accordingly.
    I need to get a better scale. The current one I use has resolution only to 1g. I estimate 0.5g to 3 beans out of trial and error. I shall give this a go at some point though. Feels wrong to waste beans on experiments and not tasty beverages, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by TOK View Post
    I'm going to have another "crack" at this. Question: Rate my Puk?. My revised reply, on the basis of now taking a closer and magnified look at the photo as well as having another read of the entire topic. To me, the photo of your puk seems to indicate a small under dose. On a well packed (if not over packed) dose, the indentation of the locating bolt is usually very sharp, and yours isn't, indicating there was probably a small amount of liquid on top of the puk immediately the group handle was removed from the group, and before it dissipated into the puk over time while you were getting ready to take the photo. Also there seem to be areas where the kiss of the shower can be seen, and others where it cant. Ergo you asked "Rate my Puk" and my reply is, it seems to be just a whisker under dosed. Whether that makes any difference to the quality of your cup or not is hard to say, and whether it caused "early blonding" in the resulting cup is impossible to know except where you can make a row of coffees under different conditions and see what happens wrt blonding in each case. And sometimes, some coffees just blond out earlier than others...... As noted by someone else, try making coffee using different doses, but keeping the grind constant (at least at first...only ever change one variable at a time) and see what happens. My interpretation, is you are asking how to fix what you think is early blonding, and if it may be related to what can be seen of your puk. You also ask if there is a problem, my reply is: only if you think so. I will note again, irrespective, I think you can make a better coffee if you replace the rancilio filter with a std commercial one BUT....the same conditions of coffee making and traditional "puk reading" will apply. Kindly note "puk reading" is not an exact art....and is consequently subject to a great deal of opinion . Enjoy.
    Thanks, Your description of what has happened to the top of the puck almost exactly mirrors what is depicted in the video which was linked. Kudos. I shall try dosing up and perhaps tracking down a different filter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pete39 View Post
    I guess what I'm saying is, if you look at what happens to the puck at the end of the extraction in the video you can see a rapid back-flow when the shot ends. This back-flow will disturb anything that happened to the puck during the shot and so how can you get any useful info out of it?

    I suggest to the op to ignore pucks because of that and, because when I was starting out, I used the 5 cent test to get the dose about right and then fine-tuned from there. I got concerned when the puck got a bit sloppy and used that as a sign my dose was to small. I then did a little session with a barista who tasted my shot an said the grind wasn't fine enough. I replied I couldn't go any finer because I'd have to reduce the dose or shot would choke. He said so reduce the dose. I said, but the puck will get sloppy. He said, who cares? I followed his advice and got a really nice, sweet shot, but a really sloppy puck. I have not seen any correlation between a good shot and what the puck looks like, hence my suggestion to the OP to ignore the puck.
    Yeah, I don't think the puck is 100% indicative, but some info can be gleaned from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    As a Canadian I just can't help myself... the correct spelling of "puck", regardless of whether we are discussing coffee or ice hockey, is: P U C K
    Damn straight!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    For pucks sake, this thread has derailed significantly. OP hasn't even replied yet, he's probably wondering how the puck he should respond to all these weird posts.
    Yeah - wow. There's a huge amount here to digest haha. A little derailment never hurt anyone, though.

  26. #26
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    Hi DuaneDibbley

    Just to throw a little wild card in, most hints of bitterness are due to too many fines delivered by the grinder (Silvia has zero tendency towards bitterness AFAIAC). Stale / oxidised grounds taste sour.

    Just spread a little of your grinder output on a piece of white paper and check the spread in particle size. If that is a fail, nothing will stop the bitterness "further down the chain".

    FWIW, I am also a fervent hater of the stock Silvia basket, however it does not go bitter, it just flows quite poorly. Also, take four random Silvia baskets and you are very likely to have four different results in terms of shot setup. One of the many coffee things I tend to bin on sight. YMMV.

    TampIt

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    What are fines? Are they bits of grind which are less than average size?

  28. #28
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    This thread is now doomed. If there are people who are so thin-skinned that "Ridged for her..." offends them enough to complain and get a thread name changed with the weak excuse of "inappropriate language" then all the puck jokes here are going to make them implode.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuaneDibbley View Post
    How can I fix this? Also - someone please point out what the actual problem is - I assume there has to be one
    I reckon that one of the first things you need to do before you go too far, is to get rid of that horrible Hex-Head Bolt that Rancilio still insist using to secure the shower-screen in place.

    Grab a 12mm long Pan-Head or Countersunk s/s screw to replace it and then at least, you won't have problems with the head of the bolt destroying the integrity of said puck. Don't know why Rancilio still do this...

    Mal.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuaneDibbley View Post
    What are fines? Are they bits of grind which are less than average size?
    Bingo! :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuaneDibbley View Post
    What are fines? Are they bits of grind which are less than average size?
    Hi DuaneDibbley

    Yes, the smallest pieces of shattered bean. Traditionally it was thought that some fines add resistance to the puck* and that was "a very good thing". It is becoming a debatable issue nowadays (refer to the latest Nordic Challenge last month if curious). The "fines issue" is a simple surface area / volume equation: the smaller pieces extract faster and go bitter first. Given no grinder can produce a fully uniform size (yet!) there are also a few coarser bits which take longer to extract. Their sourness tends to even out the "fines bitterness". If there are only a few "outliers" on both sides of the size spectrum it seems to make very little discernible difference to taste (possibly it broadens the whole experience out). Hopefully the huge majority of particles are in the middle range, which provides the main extraction.

    That is why I have posted elsewhere on CS that I can overcome most hurdles in machines etc, but a poor grinder is (way) beyond my expertise to sort.

    It is also fair to mention that different people have differing tastes and tolerances (thank goodness, it would be boring if everyone would only accept one item of every food which must be done in only one way... shudder), and some coffee fiends run deliberately unbalanced shots (i.e. ristretto, lungo etc) to match their preferences (and fair enough). You seem to dislike bitterness and notice its presence, so in your case it is significant. I do not know your grinder at all so I do not know if it is the culprit. I only know that if the grinder generates too many fines it is very difficult to correct without making a whole batch of other tradeoffs: most of which I find unacceptable in terms of the resulting flavour in the cup and there will still be a hint of underlying bitterness anyway. There is an interesting post by Jim Shulman on this point: How filter baskets affect espresso taste and barista technique - Reviews • Home-Barista.com. Just read the first two or three paragraphs if you do not want to get buried in tech talk. OTOH, feel free to read all the comments as well if you are a masochist / geek.

    *BTW, the other hint in my view: your puck looks a little too coarse if anything which would actually reduce bitterness at the expense of sourness. That is also why some CS'rs commented it may be underdosed as the bigger particles show less clarity in the "good old Silvia hex imprint" compared to what they are used to. My take: dosing OK, grinding not, basket worse.

    FWIW, if I was asked to sort it out I would start with the grinder.

    Hope this helps.

    TampIt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Grab a 12mm long Pan-Head or Countersunk s/s screw to replace it and then at least, you won't have problems with the head of the bolt destroying the integrity of said puck. Don't know why Rancilio still do this...
    Pan head will still go into the puck a little, depending on your dose. I've got a box of the right CS SS screws for any CSers wanting to do this, but I wouldn't necessarily suggest it - you should countersink your water distributor as well or else the countersunk head will not only protrude into the puck, it will trap coffee under the head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hildy View Post
    Pan head will still go into the puck a little, depending on your dose. I've got a box of the right CS SS screws for any CSers wanting to do this, but I wouldn't necessarily suggest it - you should countersink your water distributor as well or else the countersunk head will not only protrude into the puck, it will trap coffee under the head.
    +1. The only real "non water distribution" fix I ever achieved for a Silvia was via 4 Lian Li stainless computer screws. They were an exact fit and have very low flat heads. Their Philips No2 slots actually goes below the head into the shank. Fixed four of my friends Silvia's and have never seen the same type of screws since (even though I have done dozens of Lian Li server cases before and after). They leave about a 1mm impression. I agree w Dimal: Why, Rancilio, why?

    TampIt
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  34. #34
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    The dose is fine, my advice if budget permits is to buy a Mazzer Robur-E( probably the best and last grinder you will ever buy in the current market.) I find hand grinders to be very inconsistent in particle size.

  35. #35
    TOK
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    Hi there.

    Look, I gotta disagree on that one. Great for those running (real) volume cafes, for which it is designed, but not a good home grinder for those two cups of coffee in the morning....kind of like buying a kenworth prime mover for the wife to run the kids to school every morning. Perhaps "best" in the situation it is designed for, but in my opinion, not so for the application which is the subject of this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AFC View Post
    The dose is fine, my advice if budget permits is to buy a Mazzer Robur-E( probably the best and last grinder you will ever buy in the current market.) I find hand grinders to be very inconsistent in particle size.
    I would defy anyone to prove a good set of burrs in a Pharos would be "inconsistent in particle size". Even more so the HG one. Actually, it would have to be a freshly cleaned and calibrated Robur to come close. One other point: would you back the engineering of an Italian commercial & industrial grinder company or a Swiss industrial grinder company who is only recently going "downmarket" into commercial and domestic? That and incredibly good "finer than traditional espresso" performance & adjustment is why I bought a Mahlkonig Vario for home (at less than half the Robur price). Time will tell how often I need to replace the long life ceramic burrs, however I suspect I am talking years.

    Quote Originally Posted by TOK View Post
    Hi there.

    Look, I gotta disagree on that one. Great for those running (real) volume cafes, for which it is designed, but not a good home grinder for those two cups of coffee in the morning....kind of like buying a kenworth prime mover for the wife to run the kids to school every morning. Perhaps "best" in the situation it is designed for, but in my opinion, not so for the application which is the subject of this thread.
    + 1 TOK. The "kenworth prime mover" quote is exactly why I bought a Mahlkonig Vario and have semi-retired my RR45 (another big beast conical). Less than 5 coffees and the big beast is not really into its stride. Testing it at Xmas party, the Vario did 40 coffees in two hours without getting warm. Impressive by any standard. I did have the RR45 on standby as I was waiting for the Vario to show a sign of stress. It didn't. Another nice surprise from the Swiss (quiet, small and no mess on the bench are the other "nice to live with points").

    Enjoy your NY


    TampIt

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    Something I noticed that doesn't seem to be pointed out.
    You are getting flavours you don't like with beans from Nessun Dorma but you don't get them at either LTD or DiBella.
    Have you tried beans from either ltd or DiBella at home?

  38. #38
    AFC
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    I bought a Mahlkonig Vario for home (at less than half the Robur price). Time will tell how often I need to replace the long life ceramic burrs, however I suspect I am talking years



    The burrs may outlast the grinder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AFC View Post
    The burrs may outlast the grinder.
    Hi AFC

    Sorry to shatter your myth: pick up a Mahlkonig Vario gen2 (they are surprisingly heavy) and then check out the industrial strength frame wrapped around a domestic shell. I come from a family of engineers and the Vario gen2 is a very solid beast indeed under the skin. Even the top burr holder is beyond most commercials in terms of solidity.

    Too early to tell, however I suspect it may outlast a Robur SJ, and I have years of experience with them. The Vario burrs are almost certainly able to go a lot longer if the research is accurate: 3 times the life of equivalent "Mahlkonig steel" burrs. Some cafes I still deal with have to replace their SJ burrs every three months or so (a $2,000 yearly hit). One of them has a ten+ year old Mahlkonig (EK43 ancestor) still on the original auger / burrs. Apart from guesstimating it has done way over a tonne of coffee (& outlasted the last 4 owners), it still does a better grind than their SJ managed after I did an A to Z clean & calibrate. They are now looking at the EK43 and the Forte based on running costs alone. All the Mahlkonig's seem to do a much better, tighter particle spread at Turkish to espresso grinds compared to their competitors.

    I guess it comes down to Swiss vs Italian engineering again: no contest.

    Add to that the domestic friendliness of the Vario (no mess on the bench, quiet, small footprint, accurate & fast to adjust within espresso ranges, minimal grind retention).

    TampIt

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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    OK... that's twice now that you've referred to Mahlkonig as being Swiss. I'm pretty sure they're based in Hamburg... and that is definitely in Germany

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    OK... that's twice now that you've referred to Mahlkonig as being Swiss. I'm pretty sure they're based in Hamburg... and that is definitely in Germany
    And I'm pretty sure your correct Vinitasse, Germany it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    OK... that's twice now that you've referred to Mahlkonig as being Swiss. I'm pretty sure they're based in Hamburg... and that is definitely in Germany
    After some research, yes Mahlkonig is based in Hamburg but as of 2007 they merged with a company named Ditting from Switzerland. Since then, it's been a joint venture with manufacturing plants in both Hamburg, Germany and Bachenbulach, Switzerland.

    As the grinder being discussed here is a Vario, which was released in 2009 for domestic use, I would imagine it would have design influences from the Swiss. It does say that Ditting and Mahlkonig will continue as two separate entities so I'm not sure how much their partnership affects new products and their brand names.

    Read here for more info: http://www.mahlkoenig.com/pages/comp...Language=en_US

    Not sure if people just pick on Tampit's posts because they think they're too long or something, or they're peeved that he probably knows more than they do, but it's a bit tedious seeing it in like every thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    After some research, yes Mahlkonig is based in Hamburg but as of 2007 they merged with a company named Ditting from Switzerland. Since then, it's been a joint venture with manufacturing plants in both Hamburg, Germany and Bachenbulach, Switzerland.

    As the grinder being discussed here is a Vario, which was released in 2009 for domestic use, I would imagine it would have design influences from the Swiss. It does say that Ditting and Mahlkonig will continue as two separate entities so I'm not sure how much their partnership affects new products and their brand names.

    Read here for more info: History of the traditional brand manufacturer Mahlkönig. - Mahlkönig

    Not sure if people just pick on Tampit's posts because they think they're too long or something, or they're peeved that he probably knows more than they do, but it's a bit tedious seeing it in like every thread.
    Wasn't picking on Tampit at all... was just being my usual pedantic self. If the crux of one's argument was to be summed up as follows: "I guess it comes down to Swiss vs Italian engineering again: no contest." ...I would hope that they get the nationalities straight.

    And, since you brought it up, I do much prefer it when someone is able to provide 10 words worth of useful information by actually using 10 words, rather than requiring hundreds to deliver the same message. After all, life is far to short as it is.

    I
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    Let's keep it civil folks.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    Wasn't picking on Tampit at all... was just being my usual pedantic self. If the crux of one's argument was to be summed up as follows: "I guess it comes down to Swiss vs Italian engineering again: no contest." ...I would hope that they get the nationalities straight.

    And, since you brought it up, I do much prefer it when someone is able to provide 10 words worth of useful information by actually using 10 words, rather than requiring hundreds to deliver the same message. After all, life is far to short as it is.

    I
    Fair enough, I personally like a mix of long and short responses. A good write up on a topic can be a good read, it can cover multiple topics and provide insight on several points. I can understand why people can't be bothered reading through it all though.

    At work, I tend to write a lot in an email but this mostly keeps the back and forth with the emailing to a minimum as the recipient doesn't need to ask questions about something because I've already covered it. It ensures efficient use of time. I think this is probably why I lean towards liking long replies more.

    Also, to mention something sort of on topic, I'll probably be buying a Compak K3 Push or a Macap M4M when I get back from holidays.

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    Possibly better to discuss moderating decisions in pm...
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    Wasn't picking on Tampit at all... was just being my usual pedantic self. If the crux of one's argument was to be summed up as follows: "I guess it comes down to Swiss vs Italian engineering again: no contest." ...I would hope that they get the nationalities straight.

    And, since you brought it up, I do much prefer it when someone is able to provide 10 words worth of useful information by actually using 10 words, rather than requiring hundreds to deliver the same message. After all, life is far to short as it is.

    I
    Hi Vinitasse

    Wasn't picking on Tampit at all... was just being my usual pedantic self: Wasn't taken that way by me. If I get something wrong, I would always appreciate the correction. The 'net has more than enough fiction without me adding to it.

    Oops: Germany it is. I bought three coffee things on the same day, the other two are Swiss. Better make that German vs Italian engineering: still no contest IMHO.

    As Noidle pointed out, they are now half Swiss (give or take a %). Manual says Swiss, carton says Germany. I will have to turn the grinder over next time I change beans... probably says Fiji.

    TampIt

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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    OK... that's twice now that you've referred to Mahlkonig as being Swiss. I'm pretty sure they're based in Hamburg... and that is definitely in Germany
    Hi Vinitasse & Yelta

    I usually trust my memory, however as stated there were two countries listed. Manual: Swiss. Carton says German (Hamburg).

    I finally remembered to turn it over when changing beans. Photo attached.

    IMG_1738.jpg

    Swiss it is.

    TampIt
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