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Thread: double PF = 2 different tasting single shots?!

  1. #1
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    double PF = 2 different tasting single shots?!

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi guys,

    im completely new to the whole home coffee thing and im having a play with my grinder trying to dial it in. Im getting what i think are some ok looking mice tails (they are a little straight though)out of my double pf with these being my stats:

    18g dose, just under 60g shot in 23 secs and the shot tastes quite nice. (i am thinking of going a little finer on the grind though). Im getting quite good at determining dose without scales and my tamps are getting there with pretty good precision and accuracy.

    The weird thing im encountering though is that if i pull a double into 2 separate cups, one might end up tasting a bit more bitter than the other?

    Im pretty sure im tamping evenly and take care to make sure the portafilter is leveled out before i tamp.

    Does anyone else get these issues or is it just me?

    I also just cleaned the group-head so i will try a double tomorrow for comparison (just in case theres something weird going on with the machine)

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    That sounds way too fast, aim for about 30-40ml in 25-30 seconds. 60ml out of 18gm i'm sure will contain blonde and be bitter.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Could be that you're getting a different flow into each from blockage or the machine not sitting level, one with a greater/lesser ratio of crema than the other. *EDIT* Ignor that, I'm pretty sure that's a retarded 2am suggestion *EDIT*

    It could also be a difference between shots due to trying the first, then the second (after your tastebuds have been affected by the first). I find the first sip is significantly different to the rest of the shot.

    Have you tried sipping the first, then the second, then the first again and comparing that way?

    *EDIT* Wait, 60g? Or 60ml? A double should be ~30g and ~40-60ml depending on crema. 60g would be pretty poor, I'd imagine.*EDIT*

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wynton87 View Post
    That sounds way too fast, aim for about 30-40ml in 25-30 seconds. 60ml out of 18gm i'm sure will contain blonde and be bitter.
    The OP actually said they were brewing 60g, not 60ml (which given the density of the crema is not the same thing). One commonly thrown around 'standard' is for a 'normal' extraction to have a 1/2 brew ratio (i.e. 18g ground coffee = 36 grams brewed coffee, which will have a volume greater than 36gs). But yeh, extraction 60g out of 18 grams is stretching well into the lungo range. It does sound like a slower extraction might be the key.

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    Sorry, i should clarify.

    The way i measured the 60g out was by first filling the latte glass (used because its clear) with 60g of water. I then marked the measurement and used that standard mark as my standard 60mL while im practicing . (I basically measured what 60g would look live volume wise. I hope that makes sense, since, without getting too scientific, 60g of water is approx 60mL). So the extraction i have had was at my 60g MARK on my latte glass including crema.

    I have tried sipping back and forth between shots and one was noticeably different, i am not 100% sure if one may have started pouring out of the pf before the other though, i will keep an eye out for that.

    I have just made my morning shot with an adjusted and purged grinder. The taste was much better, almost no bitter!

    My stats for the extraction were:

    18g dose, ~40mL shot in 30 secs

    I have some grinds sticking to the shower screen so should i up the dose to 19-20g? or do i need to drop the dose? (i have read somewhere that grinds sticking to shower screen means dosage needs to be upped).

  6. #6
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Yeah, making sure you're not using any of yesterday's nasty beans will go a long way toward getting the good stuff.

    For what it's worth, you marked a volume measurement, not a weight measurement, so as you say you poured 60ml, but likely nowhere near 60g, as espresso's density varies but is typically far below (0.5-0.75x) that of water.

    Might seem pedantic but using the correct terms will make a difference when people are trying to help you troubleshoot.
    to
    I suspect that your latest shot was an improvement because it wasn't as long. It may be worth "investing" in a $10 point scale off eBay to allow you to accurately test your shot weight every now and again. Volume is ok, but it's inconsistent due to differences in crema produced over time.

    If you want to really see what's going on with your extractions I would heavily recommend a naked PF somewhere down the line. I found it immensely helpful.

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    ok, i think im getting very close here to something pretty decent (im 3/4 of the way through a bag of beans though, will need to make another beanbay order soon!!). Im so close i can taste it! (literally)

    i have dialed in the grinder and im pulling these stats:
    18g dose, just measured 38gram shot in 31 secs

    The taste is pretty damn good! Should i try and ease up on the tamping to speed up the extraction slightly or should i try grinding a step up and adding more pressure when tamping? or am i beginning to chase ghosts now? ill try and get a video of the extraction going.

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    ok

    here is the video. Now that i look at it and focus on taste, it still tastes sour :/

    with nor references and nothing to go on im kinda shooting in the dark here. i thought i had something good but then im off again.

    blond espresso shot? - YouTube

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    Looks ok to me!

    Don't drink too much espresso or you won't sleep tonight haha

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    yeah.. but the taste is tangy? the coffee is decaf wow from beanbay, roasted last Wednesday. Are they characteristically tangy?

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    just checked the temperature of water at the grouphead and im getting 90.4 degrees.

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    Ok, i have officially burned through a kilo of decafwow in 1 week, i just made the last batch this morning. the order has been placed for more and there's nothing i can do now except for wait.

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    Does anyone have any opinions in regards to the youtube video? Am i actually pulling blond shots or is something else out of whack?

  14. #14
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nescafeGOLD View Post
    Does anyone have any opinions in regards to the youtube video? Am i actually pulling blond shots or is something else out of whack?
    Maybe it's within the realms of normal, but to me that looks thin/watery as hell, almost like brewed coffee. I've gotten shots like that; when I was playing around with temp and brewing at ~80C. Are you temperature surfing at all?

    Doesn't look like blonding at all to me (that said, I'm not experienced by any means). What beans are you using, how long since roast and do your shots actually produce any crema?

    Any chance of a video of a pour into a clear glass?

    *EDIT* After looking again, it might just be the light/focus playing tricks on me. It still doesn't look like blonding to me, as my blonding typically reaches a light tan before becoming watery (rather than syrupy).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    Maybe it's within the realms of normal, but to me that looks thin/watery as hell, almost like brewed coffee. I've gotten shots like that; when I was playing around with temp and brewing at ~80C. Are you temperature surfing at all?

    Doesn't look like blonding at all to me (that said, I'm not experienced by any means). What beans are you using, how long since roast and do your shots actually produce any crema?

    Any chance of a video of a pour into a clear glass?

    *EDIT* After looking again, it might just be the light/focus playing tricks on me. It still doesn't look like blonding to me, as my blonding typically reaches a light tan before becoming watery (rather than syrupy).
    I am not temp surfing but i am flushing the grouphead before a shot. The temp i have had out of the grouphead into a foam cup and measured by a thermapen is 90.4 degrees
    The beans were decafwow, 1 week old from roast date, crema might be 30% or so of total shot when going into a latte glass.

    I have been doing some thought experimens and i might have found the problem, correct me if im wrong.

    My grinder brurrs have been slightly off parallel (which has been fixed using shimslast night) which in all likleyhood has been producing uneven grounds. So, when i have dialled in the grinder i was dialling in the AVERAGE grind size and therefore getting large particles causing underextraction type shots with smaller particles.

    My other theory of thought might be that the water temp might be too low causing an underextracted taste...

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    Ok, i think im there guys! i have found out that my s24 has been set in a way where i should NOT be flushing the grouphead before a shot (the temp is perfect without a flush, if i flush, the temp in the heat exchanger drops to around 85-86 degrees. aligning the burrs has also eliminated that overpowering sour notes in the finished espresso, its now a nice balance between sour, bitter and caramel ad man is it addictive to drink!

    I went ove to my inlaws yesterday and they served me up a nespresso all frothed up in that automatic foam maker...... oh man, i was polite and drank it but i did struggle through it with copious sweet biscuits to mask the taste! i did not comment on the coffee and was polite and said 'thank you' because the mum in law is always polite and loves to host, i feel like im starting to become a true coffee snob!!!

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    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    That'd do it :P

    Glad to hear you're enjoying it now.



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