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Thread: The standard Australian Espresso Shot

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    The standard Australian Espresso Shot

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Is there a general consensus on the standard Australian espresso shot?

    For a double pour something like this....."30ml in 30secs from 20g"

    What about a single?

    Thoughts?


  2. #2
    Member astr0b0y's Avatar
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    Sounds about right, depends on the filter I reckon. For my VST its 30 ml in 30 seconds but for my Precision its 30 ml in 27 seconds.

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaroldHolt View Post
    For a double pour something like this....."30ml in 30secs from 20g"
    30ml is a single shot and is typically pulled from a 7-10g basket in 30 seconds.

    Your 20g basket is typically used for a double, extracting 60ml in 30 seconds.


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    Member astr0b0y's Avatar
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    What am I drinking then?

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astr0b0y View Post
    What am I drinking then?
    If you're doing 30ml from 20g you're pulling a ristretto.


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    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    It seems to be a shifting goalpost.

    The traditional 7g single / 14 g double shot value has, in my view, long gone.

    More and more, I'm seeing 18 - 20+ gram shots being presented as a 'single'.

    The soon to be judged 'Australian International Coffee Awards' are using the following:

    "Espresso
    A 25 - 30 ml beverage extracted for between 25 - 30 seconds from a double 18 gm VST basket dosed and packed to 18 grams.

    Cappuccino
    A 160 ml beverage prepared with a single espresso shot and textured full cream milk with no chocolate."

    At home I don't worry about definitions, but a ristretto is now a finer grind and a 35-40 second pour from 20+ grams
    in a 21 gm Precision from TC. (awesome filter by the way..... thanks Chris!)

    If I was to advise anyone, I would follow the AICA definition.

    Call it what you wish but all I worry about is how the coffee tastes.

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    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    At home I don't worry about definitions, but a ristretto is now a finer grind and a 35-40 second pour from 20+ grams
    in a 21 gm Precision from TC. (awesome filter by the way..... thanks Chris!)
    Call it what you wish but all I worry about is how the coffee tastes.
    Second this
    Super slow, drippy double ristretto (round 40ml in 35-45 second - though never actually timed it!) from a naked p/f with 21g precision triple from TC - sweet nectar indeed!
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    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    Second this
    Super slow, drippy double ristretto (round 40ml in 35-45 second - though never actually timed it!) from a naked p/f with 21g precision triple from TC - sweet nectar indeed!
    If it's thinner than 10W30, I've been too slow cutting the shot.
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    I find it odd that there isn't a "standard" out there. Sure you don't have to make the "standard", hell you don't have to even like it, but when we all say "espresso shot" how do we know what each of us means if there's no standard?

    I generally make 2 espresso shots from a double basket of about 20g, poured for 25secs producing two 30ml shots - I always thought this was the mark. Im interested in using a naked portafilter, but you can only create 1 shot using a naked (I guess). So it seems (as highlighted above) single shots of 30ml from a double basket of 18-20grams are becoming more the "norm'

    I'm also seeing cafes make their take aways differently to the in house cup, tending to put 2 shots in the take away vs a single "thicker" shot in the cafe cup.

    If I'm making an espresso shot for 2 people at home, versus just myself I don't really change the way I do it, I just end up with an extra shot that sometimes I drink or sometimes I throw.............is that what others do??

    Thanks

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    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    I use a naked, nothing wasted here.

    As for standards, it's a bit like a food recipe - there's no "standard" for a cupcake but everyone knows one when they see it and there are commonly-agreed ingredients.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    If it's thinner than 10W30, I've been too slow cutting the shot.
    10W30 at what temperature?
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    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hildy View Post
    10W30 at what temperature?

    There's always one... :P
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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaroldHolt View Post
    I find it odd that there isn't a "standard" out there. Sure you don't have to make the "standard", hell you don't have to even like it, but when we all say "espresso shot" how do we know what each of us means if there's no standard?
    There are standards. Unfortunately today it seems every organization and person out there wants to make their own standard. So much so that in the end there is no real standard anymore.

    Traditionally an espresso was the oft repeated 30ml in 30 seconds from 7g of coffee for a single with a double being 60ml in 30 seconds from 14g of coffee.

    The traditional/classic cappuccino was the drink of 3's. Equal parts of espresso, steamed milk, and froth. And no, no chocolate sprinkled on top!

    The most rigid and codified of the standards out there is probably those set by the Italian Espresso National Institute which defines an espresso as:

    Necessary portion of ground coffee 7 g 0,5
    Exit temperature of water from the unit 88C 2C
    Temperature of the drink in the cup 67C 3C
    Entry water pressure 9 bar 1
    Percolation time 25 seconds 5 seconds
    Viscosity at 45C > 1,5 mPa s
    Total fat > 2 mg/ml
    Caffeine < 100 mg/cup
    Millilitres in the cup (including froth) 25 ml 2,5

    As you can see from the discussion here everybody has their own definition of what an espresso or cappuccino is.

    The definition of what a ristretto is is just as fuzzy. The debate has been raging on here since day one as to whether it's (Using a double basket.) 30ml in 15 seconds, 60 ml in 60 seconds, or something in-between.

    As a result of all this the only way one can be sure that others understand what they mean by 'a shot of espresso' is if they define exactly what that means to them.


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    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    And I think you may have just identified why there seems to some shifting in the sands of 'standard definition'.

    We (in Aus) don't (generally) do those overdeveloped, bitter, robusta laden 'traditional' Italian roasts any more;
    7g of that is more than enough. :-D

    So it stands to reason that a roast, pulled just short of second crack, is going to be so delicious and sweet that we just need to
    bend the rules a bit, even change them.

    I don't believe that we should follow rules, just because somebody says we have to, especially if they no longer apply. ;-D

    Maybe there will be a new 'industry standard definition' put up as a benchmark sometime in the future but if we are
    currently in a state of flux, exploration and questioning of the boundaries, then I'm happy to be a part of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    We (in Aus) don't (generally) do those overdeveloped, bitter, robusta laden 'traditional' Italian roasts any more;
    7g of that is more than enough. :-D

    So it stands to reason that a roast, pulled just short of second crack, is going to be so delicious and sweet that we just need to
    bend the rules a bit, even change them..
    Well,.. if you dont use the same product, or make it to the same standard, ..perhaps you shouldnt use the same names to describe it !
    How about an "Ozpresso" ??

    ..Actually, thinking more on this, i believe many of us have already adopted "Short Black" for a regular 30ml shot. !

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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    It seems to be a shifting goalpost.

    The traditional 7g single / 14 g double shot value has, in my view, long gone.

    Call it what you wish but all I worry about is how the coffee tastes.
    Hi chokkidog (et al)

    Without wishing to complicate matters, the latest trend towards conservative roast(er)s in Aust generally means that it is all too common for a roast to have as little as 33% of the "full flavour". This is partly, but not wholly, due to the larger roasting volumes forcing lower temps & longer times to keep the coffee mass under control. Not kidding, my local roaster needs a 22g basket & dose to get close to the same flavour whack as the 7g from my W Pth roaster even when using the same origin beans. It actually gets worse, because if I do not run the local one short (i.e. a true ristretto), it runs to bitterness long before I can extract enough flavour out of it to make a really good cuppa. Exit any high notes, low notes only here... Another issue is that (my personal opinion only) most roasters seem to be able to do dark roasts a lot more consistently. As I have preferred medium roasts since the '70's, it seems medium roasts are "all over the shop" when you compare different roasters' efforts. The below is using a variety of medium 100% arabica roasts (mainly SO's) from 8 different Perth roasters. The bean origin was matched as closely as practical.

    Some hard data after five days of testing with some fellow fiends late last year using a refractometer with my naked p/f / VST baskets: We could not get above a drinkable 15% extraction out of the local one (plus 4 other Metro Pth roasters with similar characteristics) despite a wholescale attempt involving numerous grinders & machines, different dosing, using the whole VST ridgeless range etc etc. Using the same gear, we obtained a consistent 19+% (usually 21+%, managed a great 23% ONCE) extraction together with a much stronger flavour with the W Pth one. Oh, and E Vic Pk & Bibra Lake roasters with similar "small batch quality" give similar taste & extraction results. To expand a little, the Bibra Lake and the W Pth Nicaraguan could not be distinguished by any of the four of us in "3 blind testing, 1 knew what was what" at identical dose and grind settings. Not bad for wildly differing companies & roasters!

    My tentative conclusion is that if the roast is done too conservatively it will lack flavour. It is then almost impossible to dial it in to get a higher extraction ratio. The only option then is to crank the basket size up and run the shot ristretto style to try to achieve something drinkable.

    Another issue is that most baristas do not dial the shots in very precisely, which also lowers the flavour quantity / extraction ratio and they need to use larger doses / baskets to compensate. Fair enough if you are pumping them out!

    This leads straight on to your comment "The traditional 7g single / 14 g double shot value has, in my view, long gone.". Given the variability in roasts, it is no wonder a lot of CSr's have a range of basket sizes so they have a better chance of dialling in whatever is in front of them at the time. Given a decent roast, a 7g is plenty as a 25 to 30ml espresso or a 250ml latte (my two usual preferences). Using the same roast, a double of 15g (VST do not do a 14) gives the same result as a 60ml espresso. A 15g / 60ml latte is way too strong until you are around the 450+ml drink mark. Even my "too heavily smoking friend" (i.e taste threshold approx 100 times higher than a non smoker) found a double / 350ml medium latte far too strong, which surprised me as he normally drinks strong dark roasts.

    Enjoy your cuppa: "all I worry about is how the coffee tastes": could not agree more.

    TampIt
    PS: the 7g / 25 to 30ml is a European standard. The US uses a lot more coffee (15g / 30ml if I remember correctly). Having lived there, most of their roasts are about 50% strength. Seems to back up my earlier comments.

    Standards? Rules are meant to be broken.
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    I gave up on the single basket on my Lelit, so my pull now is almost always 14-16+ grams in what I think is a like an 18 gram basket on the Lelit, around 30 seconds to get 30ml, it's a double though, not many drink singles anymore I think, mine are a leaner double, perhaps only because the Lelit basket is not that large, so many are in effect drinking triples now.

    Out of interest I asked a fair few of the shops I get coffee at, almost all do doubles now as standard in the store/shop, not sure what became of the true single, something changed there somewhere along the way...

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    I don't believe that we should follow rules, just because somebody says we have to...
    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    Standards? Rules are meant to be broken.
    Of course rules are meant to be broken!

    Standards on the other hand allow us to hold a conversation with-out having to define every word we use.


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    Junior Member Perfurious's Avatar
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    Mr Holt

    Whatever you think tastes best. Trial and error. Don't pay attention to anything else. The industry is full of standards and specifications but if you talk to the people who are genuinely making the best coffee, none of this matters.

    Whatever you think tastes best. Once you've found it, make it better again.....and again....always.

    Aaron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    There are standards. Unfortunately today it seems every organization and person out there wants to make their own standard. So much so that in the end there is no real standard anymore.
    That's the wonderful thing about standards, there's so many to choose from
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    If you dont maintain a "standard" to reference against, eventually you get lost.
    A 7 gm, 30 ml, 30sec espresso shot is a good standard to gauge against whatever it is you care to make as a variation.
    you can say you use a bigger dose, shorter extraction time, or make a larger shot, etc. But you need something to reference it to, or judge against.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Some of the statements in this thread are bound to have the compulsive obsessives among us rushing off to see the shrink.


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    Member astr0b0y's Avatar
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    Holy existential crisis Batman, it's obsessive compulsive, not the other way around!

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    If you dont maintain a "standard" to reference against, eventually you get lost.
    A 7 gm, 30 ml, 30sec espresso shot is a good standard to gauge against whatever it is you care to make as a variation.
    you can say you use a bigger dose, shorter extraction time, or make a larger shot, etc. But you need something to reference it to, or judge against.
    Past experience seems to work for most of us B52, unless your very new to the game, regardless, even if your a newcomer, its a simple enough process, you will pick up the process pretty quickly.

    Some cooks need to follow a recipe word for word others instinctively know what will work and what wont.

    Perhaps some are simply not cut out to be cooks.

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    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Some of the statements in this thread are
    also;
    pseudo science,
    uncorroborated evidence,
    unsubstantiated, implied accusations,
    unconvincing generalisations,
    sweeping statements
    and the latest instalment of a clayton's book.
    ;-)

    and some of the above are probably mine.

    Now I might go and copy/paste this post into half the other threads on the forum!! :-)
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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astr0b0y View Post
    Holy existential crisis Batman, it's obsessive compulsive, not the other way around!
    That was rather obsessive compulsive of you to point that out

  27. #27
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Some cooks need to follow a recipe word for word others instinctively know what will work and what wont.
    uuuuummmmmmm........no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Past experience seems to work for most of us...
    uuuuummmmmmm........yes!

    Cooks do not instinctively know what will work. They know what will work based on their past experiences. And that experience is based on a recipe, whether that comes in the form of a written recipe, an oral one from someone, or simply watching others cook. And guess what a recipe is? *gasp* It's a standard! You may not like what that recipe/standard produces and that's when you start experimenting and changing things until you arrive at a result that appeals to you. The same thing holds true for any endeavor whether it be cooking, driving, or making an espresso.

    In order to effectively break the rules, first one must know what the rules are.

    To continue with the cooking analogy if you just start throwing random things together you might eventually produce something that's really good, but if by some miracle you do odds are it's going to be a long way down the road. If you don't have a recipe as a starting point you can throw ingredients together for ages before you produce something edible, let alone great.

    We see this time after time on here with people new to roasting/brewing/equipment who have no known starting point and struggle on and on for days, weeks, months, or even in some cases for years trying to produce a great roast/brew Eventually they tire of their random/scattergun approach and ask for help. Where upon they are given a basic starting point, i.e. a standard, and lo and behold before long they're producing good stuff.

    So in the end while they may not be strictly adhered to, standards are most definitely needed if nothing else as a starting point.


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    Perhaps it is more useful to ask "what is your favourite recipe for this bean" than to ask "what is an espresso/ristretto/latte/etc.".

    Outside of the commercial environment (and really, even within) there is no need to restrict oneself to beverages which conform to narrow definitions!

    "Be a non-conformist, man"

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    Does any machine manufacturer supply a basket that is nominally more than 8g/shot?

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    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Eh, as with so many things, it's about communication. If I say x and you know what I mean, we've successfully communicated.

    If the distinction between my 18g shot and your 14g shot matters then I'll go into greater detail.

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    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hildy View Post
    Does any machine manufacturer supply a basket that is nominally more than 8g/shot?
    Perhaps you should rephrase your question?

    Machine/ filter basket manufacturers produce a range of sizes........ but they don't determine what is or is not a 'shot'?

    That's up to the cook! ;-D

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astr0b0y View Post
    Holy existential crisis Batman, it's obsessive compulsive, not the other way around!
    Haaa, bet you feel better for having corrected my little Faux pas astroboy.
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    Cooks generally need to be guided and have instructions,where as Chefs.......
    But by saying that,one of the best coffees I have ever experienced was not made by the resident "award winning" Barista,who was using"award winning" beans, but by the humble Dishpig.
    Dishpig used his own beans,and made it how he liked it.
    Dishpig now owns a thriving cafe roastery and laughs at the " industry bulls#*t"

  34. #34
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    uuuuummmmmmm........no.


    I beg to differ on this point JP, most of us older snobs had grandmothers who were wonderful cooks, the weights and measures system they employed would constantly confuse those trying to document the recipes, pinch of this, handful of something else, slurp of vinegar, dash of milk/water and whatever, grandma's offerings were always perfect, others trying to duplicate the recipes would have wildly varying results.

    Not saying this (instinctive knowledge) had no base, it was passed down by parents/grandparents that simply had to do it themselves or go without.

    Nowadays if its not printed with explicit instructions it cant be done.
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  35. #35
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    I beg to differ on this point JP, most of us older snobs had grandmothers who were wonderful cooks, the weights and measures system they employed would constantly confuse those trying to document the recipes, pinch of this, handful of something else, slurp of vinegar, dash of milk/water and whatever, grandma's offerings were always perfect, others trying to duplicate the recipes would have wildly varying results.
    Just because others didn't understand/use their system/standards does not mean they didn't exist. A standard isn't about using a globally recognized measuring system. It's about using a consistently repeatable method/system. While many of us and our relatives don't use a teaspoon, graduated cylinder, or scale does not mean we don't have a consistently repeatable method of measurement. Whether you use a measuring cup or the ole Mark I Eyeball the only thing that matters is that whatever system you use it is a consistently repeatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Not saying this (instinctive knowledge) had no base, it was passed down by parents/grandparents that simply had to do it themselves or go without.
    Again you contradict yourself. If the knowledge was passed down by parents/grandparents then it's not instinctive! It's learned!

    While our DNA contains an incredible amount of data it does not contain a recipe for homemade bread.


    Java "If it's instinctive then it wasn't learned, it was inherited!" phile
    Last edited by Javaphile; 21st March 2014 at 05:16 PM. Reason: Spelling
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    "While our DNA contains an incredible amount of data it does not contain a recipe for homemade bread."

    :-D funny...

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    ... But the majority of human DNA does have an aptitude for a decent coffee at whatever origin / blend, roast, dose, tamp, grind or maker they choose.

    So why cannot so many CSr's just enjoy it and pass on helpful info so others can do the same.

    TampIt

  38. #38
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Not worth debating JP, your in the position of power and always get the last word regardless.
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    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Not worth debating JP, your in the position of power and always get the last word regardless.
    Normally I'd say nothing, but I've never noticed Javaphile use his (her?) staff position as leverage while posting as a poster.

    Not cool.

  40. #40
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    If I were to abuse my position in such a way it would happen only one time as the second time I did it Andy would kick my arse right back to being a regular user if not off the board entirely so fast it would make your head spin.

    In my over 9 years on here with over 10,000 posts and with having been a Mod for almost that entire time I have never used my being a Mod to 'win' a discussion. To suggest otherwise, especially from a position of such weakness in the current discussion, is poor form. Very poor form indeed.


    Javaphile
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    Bringing us back to my original question, perhaps I need to rephrase it!

    "If you ordered an espresso from a good Australian coffee shop, describe in a moderate amount of detail what you should be served"

    or

    "Describe in a moderate amount of detail, in your opinion, what an espresso is made from and how it should be made"

    If I get a few replies to the above I can look at the mean and that will help me. I guess I'm just looking for a loose consensus amongst CS users. Hopefully that should help me set a starting point to expand my coffee experience from.

    Thanks all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Perhaps you should rephrase your question?

    Machine/ filter basket manufacturers produce a range of sizes........ but they don't determine what is or is not a 'shot'?
    Does any machine come with a 'single' that is nominally >8g or a double nominally >16g?

  43. #43
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaroldHolt View Post
    Bringing us back to my original question, perhaps I need to rephrase it!

    "If you ordered an espresso from a good Australian coffee shop, describe in a moderate amount of detail what you should be served"

    or

    "Describe in a moderate amount of detail, in your opinion, what an espresso is made from and how it should be made"

    If I get a few replies to the above I can look at the mean and that will help me. I guess I'm just looking for a loose consensus amongst CS users. Hopefully that should help me set a starting point to expand my coffee experience from.

    Thanks all.
    A single shot, about 30ml, though I've never ordered one.

    A double, I'd expect 40-60ml from 18-21g of ground coffee.

    Take a third of the volume of each for a ristretto.

  44. #44
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    20-30ml of bloody awesome, full flavoured and balanced coffee extracted using an espresso machine. Dun care whether their baskets are thimbles or buckets, wicker or metal but it better be good and no lemons please or it's not an espresso, it's a sink shot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    Hi chokkidog (et al)

    Without wishing to complicate matters, the latest trend towards conservative roast(er)s in Aust generally means that it is all too common for a roast to have as little as 33% of the "full flavour". This is partly, but not wholly, due to the larger roasting volumes forcing lower temps & longer times to keep the coffee mass under control. Not kidding, my local roaster needs a 22g basket & dose to get close to the same flavour whack as the 7g from my W Pth roaster even when using the same origin beans. It actually gets worse, because if I do not run the local one short (i.e. a true ristretto), it runs to bitterness long before I can extract enough flavour out of it to make a really good cuppa. Exit any high notes, low notes only here... Another issue is that (my personal opinion only) most roasters seem to be able to do dark roasts a lot more consistently. As I have preferred medium roasts since the '70's, it seems medium roasts are "all over the shop" when you compare different roasters' efforts. The below is using a variety of medium 100% arabica roasts (mainly SO's) from 8 different Perth roasters. The bean origin was matched as closely as practical.

    Some hard data after five days of testing with some fellow fiends late last year using a refractometer with my naked p/f / VST baskets: We could not get above a drinkable 15% extraction out of the local one (plus 4 other Metro Pth roasters with similar characteristics) despite a wholescale attempt involving numerous grinders & machines, different dosing, using the whole VST ridgeless range etc etc. Using the same gear, we obtained a consistent 19+% (usually 21+%, managed a great 23% ONCE) extraction together with a much stronger flavour with the W Pth one. Oh, and E Vic Pk & Bibra Lake roasters with similar "small batch quality" give similar taste & extraction results. To expand a little, the Bibra Lake and the W Pth Nicaraguan could not be distinguished by any of the four of us in "3 blind testing, 1 knew what was what" at identical dose and grind settings. Not bad for wildly differing companies & roasters!

    My tentative conclusion is that if the roast is done too conservatively it will lack flavour. It is then almost impossible to dial it in to get a higher extraction ratio. The only option then is to crank the basket size up and run the shot ristretto style to try to achieve something drinkable.

    Another issue is that most baristas do not dial the shots in very precisely, which also lowers the flavour quantity / extraction ratio and they need to use larger doses / baskets to compensate. Fair enough if you are pumping them out!

    This leads straight on to your comment "The traditional 7g single / 14 g double shot value has, in my view, long gone.". Given the variability in roasts, it is no wonder a lot of CSr's have a range of basket sizes so they have a better chance of dialling in whatever is in front of them at the time. Given a decent roast, a 7g is plenty as a 25 to 30ml espresso or a 250ml latte (my two usual preferences). Using the same roast, a double of 15g (VST do not do a 14) gives the same result as a 60ml espresso. A 15g / 60ml latte is way too strong until you are around the 450+ml drink mark. Even my "too heavily smoking friend" (i.e taste threshold approx 100 times higher than a non smoker) found a double / 350ml medium latte far too strong, which surprised me as he normally drinks strong dark roasts.

    Enjoy your cuppa: "all I worry about is how the coffee tastes": could not agree more.

    TampIt
    PS: the 7g / 25 to 30ml is a European standard. The US uses a lot more coffee (15g / 30ml if I remember correctly). Having lived there, most of their roasts are about 50% strength. Seems to back up my earlier comments.

    Standards? Rules are meant to be broken.
    Great post! one of the more interesting observations I read in a while. and completely in line with my own observations of late.

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    I'm interested in how much coffee went in because that is a guesstimate of how much caffeine is in the cup.

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    At high school my Home Economics teacher despised me because I frequently refused to follow her recipes with the clinical precision that she demanded yet many times my renditions if her dishes were voted best of the class. What she did not know was that from a young age I taught myself to cook dinner in an improvised kitchen while both my parents worked two jobs each to pay the mortgage on an unfinished house during a time of escalating interest rates and soaring inflation. The improvised stove, having a single element with an on-off switch and which was powered by the network of extension cords that led from the "builder's" power box and powered everything else in the house-to-be, stood on a stack of bricks in the laundry (the kitchen was an empty room that doubled as my bedroom and a storeroom). The ancient fridge would fail without warning so often we stocked canned and dried versions of ingredients and rarely a useful set of fresh ingredients to make a normal dish so I would need to make odd substitutions that sometimes worked. I learned the meaning of that expression about a bad workman blaming his tools and developed a disdain for those who cannot produce a decent meal or cup of coffee despite using fancy facilities. Brew me a decent cup of coffee in a saucepan over a campfire and I will respect that. Brew me a disappointing cup of coffee in a $10,000 espresso machine as happened to me in a cafe on Friday and I will not return. Tell me that it is impossible to produce a good result without following a precise method and fancy equipment and I will laugh my pants off.

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    Given the vast variety of human taste, it seems like a very slim possibility that people could ever decide on a "Standard Australian Espresso Shot."

    But if the attempt is made to do so, it would be helpful to use 21st century measuring techniques, rather than outmoded ones from times past. Measuring espresso beverage volume in milliliters is so 1999....
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASchecter View Post
    Given the vast variety of human taste, it seems like a very slim possibility that people could ever decide on a "Standard Australian Espresso Shot."

    But if the attempt is made to do so, it would be helpful to use 21st century measuring techniques, rather than outmoded ones from times past. Measuring espresso beverage volume in milliliters is so 1999....
    Hi Andy

    I guess I was on the fence when I read that a while back. Was it really nearly four years ago? shudder...

    What I was taught was the the volume always disregarded the amount of crema, as all CSr's probably know that a fresh roast (i.e. just cooled) can easily generate well over its own volume in crema. I also notice that no one has actually stated that "minor detail" here (including me).

    Having said that and thought about it a bit more: I reckon you are correct, especially as I am using a refractometer a lot more often these days (for testing & tinkering, not day to day shots). Mind you, that may be due to the sheer intellectual laziness involved in not having to convert between mls & grams! I can feel a spreadsheet coming on...

    Enjoy your cuppa

    TampIt
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  50. #50
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildy View Post
    I'm interested in how much coffee went in because that is a guesstimate of how much caffeine is in the cup.
    Hi Hildy

    I hate to burst your bubble, but it is only loosely related. An old (late '70's?) paper article had all the figures plus some really surprising graphs and conclusions. This is my best recollection. The method for making the coffee has a massive effect on the caffeine levels. Espresso machines are among the lowest (not expected by most), but for espresso machines shot length is exponentially related to caffeine levels. Even two consecutive shots with the same everything will vary the caffeine level by a lot if one is just a few % longer than the other. Apart from fines, caffeine is higher in the last third of the shot. Also, caffeine is actually quite bitter.

    Given the internet prevalence these days, google will probably give you more than you need to know beyond that snippet.

    TampIt
    Last edited by TampIt; 23rd March 2014 at 04:35 AM. Reason: typo



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