Results 1 to 26 of 26
Like Tree1Likes
  • 1 Post By Bames

Thread: Why do my second brews fail?

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    10

    Why do my second brews fail?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Almost every time I make a second brew too soon after the first, it fails.

    Hardware:
    Wega Mininova Classic
    Wega 5.8 grinder (same as Compak K3 Touch I think)
    Bottomless portafilter basket, maybe a Synesso

    I make the first brew, ~18g of coffee for ~18-25g of coffee depending on the grind and brew time.

    If I wait for long enough, maybe 10 minutes, the second brew is fine. If I make a second one immediately after the first, it's as though I've ground much finer or tamped much harder or something's blocked. None of those are true. What I usually do is clean out the basket and put it back in place to stay warm then drink the first ristretto then straight onto grinding the second. All the variables are the same. The machine should be more than powerful enough to make a second cup and the pressure is straight back up there as soon as you shut the water off again.

    The only thing I can think of is that the first grind goes into a dry basket and when I put a second grind in it's usually into a wet basket and maybe the first dry grinds hitting the wet basket block the filter holes? But I'm not sure because I think that if I wait the 10 minutes it's sometimes also still wet (maybe?, I can't say that for sure).

    Any tips to eliminate this annoying trait? I failed twice this morning. First brew great, second brew about 5g of coffee from ~18g of grind after 30 seconds, third brew 18g of coffee from ~18g of grind after a minute and it sputters and drips and just doesn't come out.

    I've had the machine for a year and it's always done this. If I have guests for coffee I can't do a run of them in a row and it's not really feasible to wait 10 minutes between brews.

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    52
    Probably the wet basket. This is a known cause of channeling. I just dry my basket between shots.

  3. #3
    Junior Member lucasr53's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    14
    From my non technical background or knowledge I'd suggest it's a pressure problem. A wet basket would cause channeling ie run faster not slower. So maybe the pressure in the machine needs time to build up again? Not sure with ur machine but might suggest a problem there.
    Another option. .. grinder. Does your grinder retain a lot of grinds? If so you could actually have your grinder dialed in for old grinds. So when you make one straight away it's 18g fresh grind whereas before it was say maybe 14g fresh n 4g old. To test this theory, Before your first shot, throw out the first part of the grinds and then grind your 18g for your shot.
    Off the top of my head that's what came to mind. Hope that helps.
    Also dry your basket before dosing so you can take out that variable.

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    10
    I'll start with drying the basket, because that's the only thing that changes.

    My grinder stays the same. It does retain grounds but I don't change the setting at all except to "ride" the burrs a bit like other Compak users do (there's a small amount of play in the grind scale setting that you can use to finely adjust on the fly without actually changing the grind setting). This has a very small but useful effect but I can ignore it for the purposes of this problem because it doesn't affect a brew after a long enough pause.

    The machine should be more than good enough but yes, it feels like a pressure issue. Like even after a minute it still is struggling to produce anything besides a few drips and maybe spurts, as though I've suddenly ground waaay finer and the machine can't handle it. But the machine should handle handle it no problem. It wasn't cheap, has a good rep. and is a quality brand.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    Dry you're basket ( I'm really surprised you don't actually). Out of curiosity, you you clean the shower screen between shots?

    As to what lucasr53 said - do you purge the grinder when you finish, or before you start? I always start with an empty grinder.

  6. #6
    Member MrWhite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    99
    Try rinsing the basket then drying before the next shot. If I only wipe between shots I get the same effect.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    609
    How do you know your dose is that same? Are you weighing your dose?

  8. #8
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,028
    Is it a single boiler machine? Apart from the wet basket, I'm wondering if, even though the pressure climbs again straight away, it is showing steam pressure not water? i.e. the water isn't enough for a while to give a proper shot and the top of the puck gets clogged before enough water comes through?

    I guess you need a mininova user to comment - is there a specific mininova thread you can post your question?

  9. #9
    Senior Member smokey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    311
    My thoughts are that the water is not hot enough, do you have a thermometer to check? There may be a fault in the boiler.

  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    10
    I tap out the puck, rinse the basket then just put it back.

    I don't clean the shower screen until the end of the morning, by which time two or three double shots have been run through it. If the time has been long enough since the last shot I do purge the superheated water out of the head.

    I don't purge the grinder, so my first shot of the day will have some stale grounds but the next one or two will be fresh.

    I weigh with some 0.1g kitchen scales that sit under the machine. Weigh the grinds, weigh the shot. I aim for ristrettos with 18g of grind and somewhere around 18-25g of shot in 25-30s depending on what I feel like and how the pour is looking. When I get annoyed and things aren't working, like this morning, I will occasionally let it go for a minute and have a nasty shot just for the sake of it. But that's what motivated this thread - it means things are really bad if it takes longer than 30s.

    Machine is a single boiler HX E61 machine, tank, vibration pump, RRP ~$3000 so a fairly substantial machine.

    The gauge might well be measuring steam pressure (0.9bar I think) but it does decrease noticeably (not heaps, but it's not steady) somewhere in that 0.8-1.0 range when pulling a shot. I never look at it since it's "steady enough". E.g. it might go from 0.95 to 0.85 bar, I don't know. I would be confident in saying it doesn't go below 0.8 bar. Maybe I'm wrong. It heats up quickly in the morning so I don't think the boiler has a problem. It might reach temperature and pressure in a couple of minutes, but I normally leave it for about 20 minutes until the head is superheated.

    No thermometer but if drying the basket doesn't work I will think about getting one.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,028
    You could try grinding a shot that gushes, then do another one at the same too-coarse grind. If THAT blocks then it would kinda have to be the basket wouldn't it? i.e. with a gusher you're not asking so much in terms of pressure from the machine. Just an idea...

  12. #12
    Member MrWhite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    99
    Quote Originally Posted by metaljong View Post

    I don't purge the grinder, so my first shot of the day will have some stale grounds but the next one or two will be fresh.
    A good purge before your first shot should help the consistency between the first and second shots.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    You don't need to wait for pressure to build up - it is provided by the pump...

    My money is on the dose/grind bei g ok for stale coffee, but not for fresher coffee.

    Personally I flush the group and wipe the shower screen (if required) every shot.

  14. #14
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    10
    By how much should I purge the grinder? If I'm grinding three 18g doubles a day my main concern is throwing out say 10g, which is a fairly substantial cost over time.

    The thing with your logic MrJack, is that if I wait say 10 min+, it's all good. It's just if I brew, drink then immediately make another that it fails. Say 2 min.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,028
    Purging might be cheaper than what is happening now - how much do you lose on choked shots?

    As for old grinds, I keep a wooden kebab skewer beside my grinders. At the end of grind I stick it in the spout and wiggle to get the last of the grinds. (I wiggle the STICK, not me, OK? ) It reduces the amount left in there considerably and it only takes a little practice before I could stop the grind short, get the extra and still be at 15g - 16g in the basket.

    Not sure if you have a doser grinder or not but maybe it could reduce the waste?

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    Because after 10 mins your "fresh" retained grinds are now stale...

    You are sinking the second shot anyway, (so you are already "wasting" the coffee) so why not save the electricity

    In my K3P I purge the grinder until empty, fill the basket with beans, pour them into the hopper, grind into the PF and then purge afterwards. Minimal waste, fresh grinds.

  17. #17
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    10
    Good points both of you - thanks.

    I did once upon a time intend to get the single-shot hopper for Compaks from Orphan Espresso but I lost interest when they seemed to have stopped making them.

  18. #18
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    10
    And now, just checking, they have them for sale again. So I could fill the short hopper with just my 18g at a time and purge in between.

  19. #19
    STS
    STS is offline
    Senior Member STS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    103
    You've spent a substantial amount on your equipment. If the suggestions to rectify 'user' related variables don't work I would suggest you spend a little bit more and have a competent tech evaluate your problem. If they have access to a scace device to accurately assess pressure and temperature at the group then all the better.

    Sean

  20. #20
    Junior Member lucasr53's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    14
    Just from your pressure readings, I'm not sure how accurate your indicator is but it seems a tad low. This would mean the 1st Shot gets superheated higher pressure water and the 2nd not so much which could cause that slow flow. Might be worth a scace test if the grind retention doesn't make a difference. It might be a case of a small adjustment on the opv. I just had the opposite problem with my machine (a Hx e61). If you're in the melbourne area I might be able to have a look for you? Pm if interested

  21. #21
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    10
    I paid attention to the gauge this morning. No change while brewing. It fluctuates minorly, from 1.0 bar when superheated down to 0.9 bar after purging a bit and while brewing. My earlier post was a guess and obviously wrong.

    One thing that I noticed that points to a wet basket being the problem - for a long while I haven't had issues but I would brew one cup in the bottomless basket, then switch to a new handle/basket with double spout and brew a split shot right afterwards (in the ~2min range) and have no problem. Because it was a new basket it wasn't wet.

    But lately circumstances have meant two doubles in the same, wet basket right after one another because the milk drinker was still asleep and I was just pouring doubles for me in the bottomless basket so the problem reoccurred.

    Today I did my double, then the split milk shot, then my second double a bit later and no problems.

    Anyway, next time I get up early and do just my shots in a row I'll dry and see how it goes.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    609
    It's a boiler pressure gauge. Don't worry about it, it will tell you absolutely nothing about your shot.

    The problem is stale coffee, probably combined with super-heated HX water.

    Stale coffee:

    Stale coffee flows faster than fresh. You're not p\urging your grinder before the first shot, meaning you have stale grinds in your dose, making that shot flow faster. You then grind straight away for shot 2, meaning you have all fresh grinds making your shot flow slower.

    When you wait 10 mins you have stale coffee again = faster flow.

    Before you make your first shot tomorrow morning, purge your grinder for 5 seconds. Stick some kind of container under the grinder chute, activate for 5 seconds or about 7ish grams, throw away. Grind again for your shot, then pull the shot and tell us how it flows.

    Super-heated water:

    After idle for about 10 minutes, does your group head produce some spluttering when you activate the pump? On a Wega mini nova that I doubt has been calibrated, I would imagine yes.

    Try it and see. First thing in the morning after it has warmed for 30 minutes, activate the pump without the handle in the machine. If water splutters for a few seconds and then flows normally, then you need to flush before pulling a shot. Flush until the water stops spluttering, then lock in and activate pump again straight away.

    Again, boiler water on first shot or shot after 10 mins. If you pull a shot straight after the first one, you will not super-heated water hitting your coffee, again making it flow slower.

    Check these two things and let us know.
    MrJack likes this.

  23. #23
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    10
    Yeah, I flush to get rid of the spluttering. And even then once the flow starts you can see the water is superheated (it's kind of full of bubbles and hissing as it comes out) so I keep going for a few more seconds until it flows clear and the hissing stops. I do this after the 10 minutes, yes. If it's not hissing and running clear, then I'll stop straight away.

    I'm going to remedy the stale thing. I will do the mod to get rid of the Compak stopper flap and invest in a mini-hopper if/when Orphan Espresso returns my shipping quote email and purge etc. In the meantime I'll try purging the initial grounds and see what happens. It will be interesting from a taste perspective too.

  24. #24
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    10
    Several days of experimenting later and it was definitely the wet basket. All good now. I have been purging grinds too, but just to isolate variables I did a couple of days without purging and just making sure the basket is dry and yep, that fixes it. Thanks everyone for the advice and help.

    I still don't fully understand the symptoms, seeing as they implied blockage or lack of pressure but whatever, at least it's fixed.

  25. #25
    Junior Member lucasr53's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    14
    Good to hear mate!

  26. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    52
    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Glad to hear it was something simple!



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •