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Thread: No espresso this morning!!

  1. #1
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    No espresso this morning!!

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Woke up this morning to my usual routine of turning on the Rocket Giotto. Got the green light, the usual "click" and the sound of the boiler filling. 30 minutes later did the usual grind, dose, tamp and went to lock in the grouphead but noticed no pressure!! Touched the grouphead and it was only warm (from the usual skin melting hot). Sigh! I made a pour-over instead, but now I'm thinking I'm up for the control board + loom upgrade...last I heard it's around the $500 if I bring it in. I'll do a diagnosis make sure it's not something. There are a few potentials that I'll need to investigate before buying parts. control board + loom will cost me about $300+.

    I'll have to bring home the Lelit from work while I'm down a Giotto. Sigh!

  2. #2
    TC
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    Hello Saoye,

    Sorry to hear that. $500 sounds extremely steep to me. It's a 30 min job and the board is under $300. If you know an electronics wizard, it's probably repairable.

    Cheers

    Chris

  3. #3
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Hello Saoye,

    Sorry to hear that. $500 sounds extremely steep to me. It's a 30 min job and the board is under $300. If you know an electronics wizard, it's probably repairable.

    Cheers

    Chris
    Thanks Chris. hopefully something simple if not I'll just see it as an upgrade since if I'm not mistaken the new wiring configuration allows for a low water warning? That's always been my gripe not knowing when I'm out of water (until it stops flowing midway through a shot!).

  4. #4
    TC
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    Low water warning is just a flash of the neon so it doesn't allow for completion of the shot.

    Cheers

    Chris

  5. #5
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    So you mean it will flash once it's out, so it's not really a warning only a confirmation that the issue is no water...well that's not that great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Low water warning is just a flash of the neon so it doesn't allow for completion of the shot.

    Cheers

    Chris

  6. #6
    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by saoye View Post
    So you mean it will flash once it's out, so it's not really a warning only a confirmation that the issue is no water...well that's not that great.
    That's the one.. The only machine I know of which gives a fill me up soon warning is the Vesuvius. I'm sure there must be others.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    That's the one.. The only machine I know of which gives a fill me up soon warning is the Vesuvius. I'm sure there must be others.
    FYI... the La San Marco Flexa 85 E also gives a low water warning
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  8. #8
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    The Faema A1 I had did have a water in tank getting low warning. Very handy. my current bezzera starts pulsing the pump during a brew to let you know it's about to turn off, which sort of ruins the shot anyway. Not sure why more machines don't have a warning system for water getting low, can't be hard to do.

    Cheers
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  9. #9
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Took the covers off and did a general push and pull of connections and clean out. Here are the photos.

    covers off.JPG
    Everything looked reasonably clean

    thermal cutout in place.JPG
    thermostat overload button still in place

    moment of truth.JPG
    Here's where I turned the machine on. There was a fair amount of white particles at the base of the element which I brushed away. scale?

    vacuum breaker valve.JPG
    Sound of kettle coming to a boil and "pop" the lovely sight of the vacuum breaker valve working.

    she's alive.JPG
    She's alive!!

  10. #10
    TC
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    Glad to hear you're running. Do have the rewire done though as without it, you will kill almost certainly the board eventually.

  11. #11
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    Saoye, is that a Rocket control box in there? Does that mean the original was replaced and so this would be the second one to go?

  12. #12
    TC
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    Probably an original. We use Proelind boards these days. Regardless, without a rewire, it's a matter of when, not if.

  13. #13
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Probably an original. We use Proelind boards these days. Regardless, without a rewire, it's a matter of when, not if.
    It's got Rocket at the top and Proelind on the side with the wiring diagram.

    Rocket Proelind control board.JPG

    I suspect the water reservoir is not sitting/docking correctly as this morning same thing happened. Took it apart and couldn't see anything. It works with the casing off...Other than removing the metal casing for the reservoir and docking directly on there's nothing different, unless by remounting the control board it's loosening a connection somewhere. The control board does give a hum (light buzz) but then again I never listened out for that. For this morning I will be making my coffee with the covers off. Going to make myself a shot now.

  14. #14
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    no definitely something about remounting the control board makes it not work. loose connection? If I lay it flat it's working.

  15. #15
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Latest update machine gets to temp, cycles a couple of times between 1.1 and 1.2bar where it should then on the third time when it drops to 1.1 I hear the control click as normal but element does not kick in and pressure slowly falls. I can re-engage the element by turning the machine off and on again. It will get to pressure, do the right thing keeping temp but on the third or so time element fails to turn on...will changing the loom (costs $30) do anything? I've just done a normal descale but that hasn't helped.

  16. #16
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Well seeing as it is the ProElind and not the old GICAR control board, seems likely it may be a relay inside the control box or loose wiring. I managed to entertain over the weekend pumping out 4 espressos and 3 cafe lattes with a couple of times where I had to switch the on and off button to kick start the element. Obviously that's not fantastic. Will re-open the Giotto when I have time and have a look inside the Control Box for anything obvious. I'm thinking while it's open I may as well take apart the boiler for a real complete descale.

  17. #17
    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by saoye View Post
    Well seeing as it is the ProElind and not the old GICAR control board, seems likely it may be a relay inside...
    Agreed. This probably would not have occurred if the tech who replaced the board did the rewire at the same time

  18. #18
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    I purchased this machine used and as usual with used machines it did not come with a history. I did notice the wiring was not exactly as per what was on the control box diagram (2 wires) but I'll have a closer look when I have time. I've regretted some purchases in my life but this Giotto is not one

    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Agreed. This probably would not have occurred if the tech who replaced the board did the rewire at the same time

  19. #19
    TC
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    Agreed. I'd reckon you're still well ahead
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  20. #20
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Well light blinks now when no water. Everything working as it should. One thing (other than blinking lights when empty) I noticed the "click" of the control box signalling element on and off is much more subtle. Hopefully this rewire will prelong the control box a few more years.

  21. #21
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    ....Regardless, without a rewire, it's a matter of when, not if.
    Out of curiosity , is this rewire that is referred to an upgrade to heavier gauge wires or does it involve something else?

    Cheers
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by artman View Post
    Out of curiosity , is this rewire that is referred to an upgrade to heavier gauge wires or does it involve something else?

    Cheers
    Hi artman.

    I did the rewire myself when I changed my control module.

    It doesn't involve heavier gauge wires.

    The rewire requires a loop wire on the module as well as wiring up some switches differently.

    The above info is for Giotto's without the GICAR module.

    Cheers.

    Jim

  23. #23
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    No requirement to change to high voltage wires but I did anyway only because I have a friend who is an electrician that was able to pass me some. I think there was an additional wire used at the end of it all. I kinda like the blinking low water light now. just that feeling of reassurance if nothing else.

  24. #24
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info guys.

    Cheers

  25. #25
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Just an update since the rewire about a week ago I found that every now and again the machine would still not heat up and with a jiggle of the control box the element started again. So I checked all visible contacts and made sure all electrical tabs were firm and no lose contacts. Still had the issue so decided to take the control box to my engineer friend to check out the suspected relay. From a quick inspection we can see signs of water damage at the edges of the main relay. The only way to check it out was to take the relay apart...and if you do that you got to replace the relay anyway...not a problem since he had a stack of the exact same relays available. 3 minutes later and the relay was unsoldered and top popped open to show water damage and a quick electrical test showed it was essentially not working. Resoldered the new relay in 2 minutes. I have since put it back in the machine and problem is resolved. I suspect water got in a while ago and the original problem has always been the water damaged relay. Anyways the shot of Colombian Supremo I just had was delicious!
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  26. #26
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saoye View Post
    Just an update since the rewire about a week ago I found that every now and again the machine would still not heat up and with a jiggle of the control box the element started again. So I checked all visible contacts and made sure all electrical tabs were firm and no lose contacts. Still had the issue so decided to take the control box to my engineer friend to check out the suspected relay. From a quick inspection we can see signs of water damage at the edges of the main relay. The only way to check it out was to take the relay apart...and if you do that you got to replace the relay anyway...not a problem since he had a stack of the exact same relays available. 3 minutes later and the relay was unsoldered and top popped open to show water damage and a quick electrical test showed it was essentially not working. Resoldered the new relay in 2 minutes. I have since put it back in the machine and problem is resolved. I suspect water got in a while ago and the original problem has always been the water damaged relay. Anyways the shot of Colombian Supremo I just had was delicious!
    Well done saoye, great outcome, nice to hear a positive story.

  27. #27
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Thanks Yelta. I supply brown beans to this friend so I'll be sure his effort will be rewarded

  28. #28
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    That's the one.. The only machine I know of which gives a fill me up soon warning is the Vesuvius. I'm sure there must be others.
    Brugnetti Simona Top has an audible alarm for low water level. Doesn't stop until you top it up. Very handy.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Brugnetti Simona Top has an audible alarm for low water level. Doesn't stop until you top it up. Very handy.
    As does both the SB 6910 and 7000: both alarm & flashing lights.

    Evidently even the newer Silvia has some sort of warning system these days (long overdue).

    TampIt

  30. #30
    Senior Member saoye's Avatar
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Just to show the problem with the relay I attach the photo of the water logged relay with the plastic cover off. You can see the green oxide formed on the terminals effecting the performance of the relay. Happy to say my Giotto has not missed a beat since replacing this relay.

    relay.jpg



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